Lisabob

I think it is a shame that in some councils, people use WB beads (or lack of them) as barriers to participation in the work of the council. So desert, I take your point on that one. One other thing to keep in mind though, is that when it comes to staffing, people tend to draw from a pool of folks they know. I'm reminded of the fellow who served as my son's first scoutmaster. Wonderful guy, great with kids, a fine outdoorsman and teacher. He would have been a fantastic addition to the district's training team, but the troop rarely participated in district or council events, leaders weren't active in roundtable etc., and so nobody asked this fellow to join the training team because *they didn't know he existed!*.

basement - let's not confuse things. From another thread, it sounds as though you met some real doozies who also happened to be wood badgers. It happens sometimes, and I'm sorry you experienced it. But, what's that saying, send an idiot to training and you get back a trained idiot? Not necessarily the "fault" of the WB curriculum - if it weren't for that, they'd be acting all goofy about something else, instead. Good people are good people (WB or not) and idiots are idiots (WB or not). About outdoor training - yes I think we need more of it. Offer to staff a class at your next Scouting University, or the next camporee, etc. Ask for a local troop who has a good program to team up with you, and offer an adult training program about some important topic, while the boys from the two troops are off doing whatever youth activity they planned for the day. Get involved with your district and council training teams and make the case for more hands on adult training, offered district- or council-wide. Lots of options exist. Don't anybody blame the existence of Wood Badge for the fact that people choose not to avail themselves of these other options.

If someone tells you that, offer to stuff the (damp and slightly sweaty) sock you're wearing in "it," for them. Seriously, if they're coming up to you on a parade route to tell you your Tiger Cub's socks are all wrong, they have a real problem.

OK lemme guess...Dominica??? I wish you well, pack.

I'm not sure who the best person is either (the SE,maybe?) but I can bet that the lawyer is **not** the best person to talk to, if you want to have a real conversation and not just a "cover the bases" kind of conversation. Good luck, and take it easy for the rest of your summer.

My son's troop has 6 month terms for everything except SPL and ASPL, which are 1 year terms. I do think the 1 year is necessary for SPL/ASPL because it takes a good 4-6 months for boys to understand and grow into the job. For PL and the other appointed positions (scribe, historian, etc) I think it depends greatly on how your troop actually uses those roles. I could imagine troops where some of these positions - PL, maybe QM - really require a whole year, but I don't see much need for a troop librarian to serve for a full year to learn his job (actually I don't see much need to have a troop librarian at all, but that's a different thread I guess).

So what I am hearing is that you believe the cost of outings is what is keeping your scouts from planning a calendar of fun and adventurous activities. That, more than lack of imagination or ideas, seems to be holding back your boys. Is that an accurate reflection of what you think is going on here? So that we can have a better and more useful discussion about budgeting and planning: Roughly how many boys are in the troop? Generally speaking, where are you located (region, state, anything so people can kick around ideas that make sense in your neck of the woods) I know that you have already asked your CO for help sending the boys to camp and they delivered, which is really great. I know that you are living in an area where money is tight, which makes fund raising much harder (few relatives willing to buy over-priced popcorn). I do think there are creative solutions to be found. Here are four things I have seen scouts do to raise money, none of which rely on families to kick in the wealth or door to door sales in potentially dangerous neighborhoods. 1. One troop cleans up the food court area at a local summer festival. For this they are paid about $2500. Scouts who work receive a share of the money based on the time they work, the troop receives the rest. 2. Another troop sells pop/water at a parade (in summer) and hot chocolate at another event in late fall. These are events that are well-attended by people outside the local community. The troop also cleans up at these events (empty trash cans, wipe down tables, sweep, etc.). The city gov't pays them between $500-$1000 for their clean up efforts, plus whatever they make selling the drinks. 3. Son's jambo troop worked with a local speedway to sell NASCAR pins at a couple of race days. I didn't go - I hate car racing, ugh - but the boys who did made money hand over fist. All they had to do was be there. (They also collected returnable cans/bottles and made a good return there too - but some people may object because there were evidently a lot of beer cans and maybe you don't want your scouts collecting those.) 4. Another troop volunteers a couple of times a year at a local recycling center. In exchange they get all the returnable cans and bottles that the center collected that month. They have to return them and it is a sticky, messy job. But they make a couple hundred dollars every time they do it and the percentage of beer:pop cans is not such an issue at the recycling center as at the speedway. I don't know what is in your area, but I agree it is important in these tough economic times to think about service-oriented fund raisers rather than depending on neighbors and relatives to buy yet another tin of popcorn or stupid overpriced candle. Maybe you also want to work with your PLC to look at the budget you have first, and plan based on that. If the boys have a budget of $300/year for camping fees and they really want to go to the Klondike event, then they know they need to find ways to drop the cost of other events. Maybe they choose to drop the fall camporee and do a cheap local alternative in the city park, instead. Maybe they decide that they don't need cabins to camp in January (cabins cost more money than tent camping!).

Maynard, your intentions are good. There are kids, though, who will simply dig in their heels deeper if pushed. I know, because I probably was one, and now I have one. (sigh - sorry, mom and dad!) My son is 16, a Star scout, and has been in scouting since 2nd grade. Why is he still "only" a Star scout? Well because rank is not especially important to him. He spent more than a year as a Tenderfoot. Not because he wasn't attending or doing things, but because he was too busy doing things to bother getting sign offs. He blew off the "first year" program at his first summer camp because it was boring and he wanted to go catch frogs instead (hey, he earned his reptiles & amphibians MB that year!). He only earned 1st Class when it became necessary in order to do something else he wanted to do in scouting (I don't recall which, but it was some camp program he wanted to do, and had to be 1st class for). He was 1st Class forever, it seemed, and only earned Star because the troop requires a boy to be Star rank or higher in order to run for SPL. He has been sitting on Star for more than a year, with just a couple of Eagle-required merit badges holding him back from Life rank. He has more service hours and more leadership experience than most boys in the troop. He has enough "optional" merit badges to fill out his Eagle requirements (though not all of the Eagle-required ones). In his 5 1/2 years with the troop he has probably attended 40-50 weekend camp outs and has gone to 4 week-long scout summer camps. He also did NYLT last year and loved it. He just finished a year as SPL and learned a lot from it (didn't always love it, but it was still a good experience). He is in OA. He is going to jambo later this month. Will he earn Life? I hope so - he just needs 3 Eagle-required merit badges, and to be honest, he could earn several of them in short order if he wanted to do it. He is getting to an age where, if he is going to earn Eagle, he'll probably be one of those "death bed" Eagles. This is his choice, though, and it isn't because he hasn't been active. When other adults in his troop push advancement on him - and there are a few who do, relentlessly, with (I assume) good intentions - he gets annoyed. One attempted to write out a schedule by which my son would do some Eagle-required badges. Without my son's input. Another asks him weekly "what are you doing toward rank?" Another wants to know regularly, what needs to be signed off in his handbook. My son views this as so much nagging. He can't see what their "problem" is. He is certainly NOT going to finish up his merit badges just for their sake. He'd like them to back off, but he also would prefer not to offend them by saying so. The more they pester him about rank, the less interested he becomes. That might not be your personality or style, but it is the personality or style of some boys. I think you have to respect that. It is one thing to offer help or to teach boys how to take the steps necessary to empower themselves (like helping them overcome the "it is too big, I can't do this!" scary feeling). It is another to try to force them into something. These sorts of kids have to want it for themselves, more than you want it for them.

Some questions: 1. Do you have a CO that helps with the cost of events? 2. Do you have access to local camping/outdoor-oriented resources, or is it difficult to get kids to places without hauling long distances? Along with that, is equipment an issue (like, say, canoes)? 3. Do your boys in the troop have much experience getting out of the city so that they are familiar with what else is "out there?" 4. Do you know anybody in troops in other parts of your district or council (or out of council for that matter), with whom you could team up? Maybe you can do a couple of joint camp outs - one on "their" turf that gives you free access to places and equipment you don't normally have, and one on "your" turf that highlights some resources of your city, that they normally wouldn't be exposed to. I'm curious to learn which city you live in? Not that you're under an obligation to say, of course.

Hi there Alamance, Don't let it scare you. We have taken boys with severe allergies (including nuts) to several different scout camps. Most camps have bent over backward to work with us to the satisfaction of all concerned. It can be done, although it requires advance planning and lots of follow up to make sure things go smoothly. Based on my experience, I think what Liz is describing is an aberration (though one that could have been handled by the camp and council staff much better, had they collectively had three working brain cells to rub together). On the other hand, one lesson to learn from Liz's experience is that there needs to be a designated person tasked with dealing with the major food/health issues prior to camp, and lots of double checking to ensure that designated person doesn't drop the ball. Parents of kids with major health issues should be encouraged (by their troop adult leaders and the camp staff) to ask 1000 questions, and most camps I've dealt with have encouraged parents to call and speak directly with the kitchen manager, well in advance of the start of camp.

Yes the game belongs to the boys. And most of the late teens I know (plenty of them, thanks to my day job) do not tweet. That, apparently, is an adult-something that gets more play on the media who like to report on their own tweets (as opposed to reporting on real news), than among the kids. Or anyway, that's what my college students tell me on a very consistent basis. So - I take this particular contest as an example of lame-brain adults making the facile assumption that anything tech-related will automatically draw kids in. And I see it as a marketing/publicity ploy for twitter (yeah, call me cynical). A cheap hook, and in this case, I think it will be an ineffective one, too.

A lot of times the blank stares are a result of the fact that the kids don't know what options exist. They are familiar with what they have already done, and that's it. They don't know their broader communities beyond their neighborhood and school, so probably aren't familiar with local resources. They're used to being passengers, not drivers. So they may need some help getting going on brainstorming, before the meeting happens. And telling them "go look on the internet!" is probably going to be too vague. If you have boys in OA or other district or council-level activities where they might get to know boys in other troops, encourage them to contact their buddies from a couple of other troops and ask "what is the best campout you guys have had?" This would be a good RT discussion (or topic on this board), too. Come back to your troop armed with a bunch of calendars & cool ideas from other troops. Put them on the table and tell the kids to take a look, think about these ideas, and come back the following week to do the planning for their troop. Another approach might be to ask the boys to think in terms of general classification of activities. Not: "what are you going to do in May next year?" (blank stares - May is a long way away, and they have no idea what they'll want to do) But instead: "Do you want to have any aquatic activities next year?" (yes?) "OK, so does that mean you want to swim, or go canoeing, or..." (canoeing?) "When do you think you should schedule that?" Another approach is to pull out the list of merit badges - NOT because you expect to run MB classes during camp outs, but instead, because there are a lot of cool activities that have MBs associated with them. (Here's a link to a list, organized by "field of activity" - scroll to the bottom of the page to see what I'm talking about: http://www.usscouts.org/meritbadges.asp ). For example, look at the "sports" category and I bet there are several activities there that many boys would jump on.

Ick!

I can certainly agree on that last point, desert. If anybody thinks I've gone too far in the opposite direction, blame it on the umpteen glittery-gold-and-silver "special jambo" patches that I've been sewing on to the boy's shirts, so that his shirt will be "exactly like" the other 35,000 fellows at jambo - until, of course, he takes it off so he can actually do stuff without worrying about damaging all the special patches on the shirt. Sheesh!

Barry says: " Adults know in their mind how to complete a plan, but they dont know how to teach boys those skills." Yes, exactly - and most of us learned through trial and error, and/or by working along side others who helped guide us pretty explicitly through our first projects. Yet, we expect boys to "get it" somehow on their own. I think this is a big part of why some boys stall out at Star and Life. They get that deer in the headlights look when you start asking them about their Eagle project plans, because they have no idea how to make or execute plans for something as seemingly enormous as that. One young man said to me a while back, "I don't think I'm the kind of person who could plan such a big project." He had no concept for how to approach this as a series of manageable tasks, rather than one monolithic (and scary) task. Thus, he figured that his inability to grapple with this must be a flaw in his personality or character. Nonsense! This is a failing of an adult-led program. The boys don't know how to eat the elephant because we adults (whether scout leaders, parents, or both) have not taught them and probably have not given them the opportunities (or required them) to plan and execute projects of increasing scale, as they've moved through the program. Another reason we shouldn't be doing things "for" them, even if it is more expedient and less painful in the short term to do so.

I think the "shirts only" or "waist up" uniform approaches are relics of the bad old de la Renta scout pants/hot pants (I mean, shorts) from the 90s. Ironically, the current scout pants seem to be a lot more popular with many boys, and it is the scout shirts that draw objection. But...that's not so much the point of this thread. I think we probably all agree that there are times when full uniform (or as full as possible) is highly desirable. The questions are, why should routine weekly troop meetings be that time, and does having a "full uniform" weekly meeting expectation that includes a dress-up shirt (and decorative scarf thingy that serves no active purpose) send a message to many that the weekly meetings are not terribly active, fun, boy-oriented experiences? We may differ on that last point. Again, I agree that uniforms serve a number of useful purposes and that boys can benefit from learning to wear one properly and with pride. But I don't see why they need 600 hours of practice doing so, either, especially if it comes at the cost of other objectives.

" We dealt with similar conditions at summer camp last week (I don't know why they think Jamboree is the hottest place on earth)." Well it really IS quite different conditions that what many of us are used to. I've spent time in VA in the summers. And although it gets hot and humid here in my little part of the midwest too, it is not like the humidity in VA.

OK so in the thread about thermometers and in another thread about year-round scouting, several folks mentioned the importance of getting people to drink a LOT of water - 4 gallons was one figure cited - to reduce the likelihood of heat-related health problems. Now teenagers, we all know, are naturally immortal. And they know everything. And it would all be "fine, mom!" if we would just leave them be. Of course they're also tough and presumably have a good bit of camping experience, but they may not have much experience with the kind of heat/humidity they're about to experience in VA. Here's the question. Given that teens are naturally impervious (to ill health and to advice) until all of a sudden they aren't - what do smart jambo leaders do to ensure that their kids DON'T overdo it and DO drink enough water (whether 4 gallons, or whatever)? It isn't like the jambo leaders are following the kids around all day, right?

At this point in the thread, the idea of allowing young women who are in Venture Crews and actively serving the scouting movement to join OA has been compared to: allowing cub scouts to join OA allowing gays to join OA allowing atheists to join OA allowing cross-dressers to join OA The "slippery slope" argument is based largely on false comparisons. What will be next: "letting female Crew members join OA is like letting murderers join!" ?? (now mind you, I don't necessarily feel the BSA should exclude gays, atheists, or even cross-dressers from scouting, but that's a different matter. I would draw a line at murderers. )

I agree with ScoutNut on this, re: the 3 ASMs. Most worrisome is ASM #3. That attitude needs to be addressed pronto or you're going to have to deal with the consequences for a long time. I have also been involved with a troop where two brothers have a history of causing trouble. Not so much with each other, but with other boys. There have been times when some folks (myself included) have thought it would be appropriate to send one or both of these brothers home for things that, if it were just an isolated incident, probably wouldn't merit such a response. And I am not convinced that it matters whether you are 600 miles, or 30 miles, from home. If something is truly bad enough for a boy to be removed, then remove him. In this case based on what has been described, if it is an isolated incident and more a matter of brothers having got on each other's last nerve on a hot day at camp, rather than a matter of on-going behavior problems, I don't think it rises to the level of sending anybody home.

So, desert, from your post (and note, I might agree with some of the general sentiments you express) I gather that the purpose of requiring the full uniform at weekly meetings is to ensure that boys will know how to dress properly in the adult business/work world. Suppose a boy joins a troop in February of 5th grade, and stays all the way through 12th grade, at which time he ages out. Suppose the troop holds 40 meetings a year, each 2 hours long (for sake of argument). Suppose also, that this boy attends each and every meeting. He will have attended something like 300 weekly troop meetings in his time as a boy scout. Do you really think he needs 600 hours of learning to dress properly? Regarding the lack of skill or preparedness we see among young adults entering the work world, I agree with you there, but let's take it further than their clothing choices. Many young (and not so young) adults I know can't do simple math and their capacity to handle the English language with any sort of fluency is atrocious. They barely know how to answer a telephone and take a message. They often don't have good table manners, either. Should we spend some of our 600 hours of meeting time on those things, instead? Could you imagine if every troop meeting began with the boys writing a short essay (or a report, or a thank you note - for variety), or laying the table correctly for a fancy dinner? (This message has been edited by lisabob)

So going back to the question at hand - Why should a troop expect that weekly troop meetings will require full uniforms, rather than "activity uniforms? (scout T and scout pants)"? Does setting this expectation result in meetings that conform to the expected dress code? What does it say about weekly meetings, that the boys should not expect to be doing much that is active? I fully recognize that there needs to be some planning and occasional "sit and listen" stuff but if that's the bulk of the meeting, week after week, things get pretty dull and many boys lose interest. Regarding identification: Do you mean to tell me that a group of boys in scout pants and scout/troop T shirts are not easily identifiable as scouts? My son's troop does a fund raiser every year at a local festival, where they go around and pick up trash (for which the city pays the troop). They wear their scout pants and troop T shirts. Another troop sells hot dogs and cold drinks at the same festival. They wear their troop T shirt and scout pants. Nobody mistakes these two groups for anything other than boy scouts, let me tell you. And most people seem to figure out very quickly that there are two troops working the event, too (because they have different color T shirts).

Let me ask this a different way (mind you, I'm NOT knocking the uniform itself or the concept of uniforming in general, I just want to better understand your thought processes on this topic). Why SHOULD a scout need to wear his full uniform to a weekly meeting? In a troop where weekly meetings are desirable to attend (fun, active, outdoorsy - not boring adult harangues, merit badge classes, or endless paperwork), is the full uniform necessary or desirable? Does the full "dress up" uniform expectation reflect, or maybe even change, the tenor of the meetings? I ask this because two of the biggest complaints I hear from kids who are thinking of quitting boy scouts are that a) troop meetings are boring, and b) they don't like wearing the uniform shirts (and for some, the neckers) Maybe, if kids were wearing something more functional and comfortable that still identifies them as scouts (like, say, a Troop T Shirt), that would be reflected in a more active style of weekly meetings. As it is, the uniform shirt and a decorative scarf hardly invite the boys to get grubby or be... boys. This is not to say there aren't times and places for full uniforming, but why should a weekly troop meeting always be that time and that place? What would be gained, and lost, if a troop T shirt and scout pants/shorts were accepted as appropriate attire for most weekly troop meetings? By the way, the newer style scout pants are extremely popular around here. Boys wear them to school, hanging out with friends, around the house, etc. The older arguments that the ODL pants were goofy looking and uncomfortable (and they were, I agree!) no longer apply with these newer pants. Getting boys to wear the newer pants is not an issue.

Do you think the boys either a) do not know who is what rank or b) spend much time "reading" each others' uniform shirts, or c) are necessarily wearing the correct rank and position insignia at any given time? My son's troop is a full uniform troop. This includes weekly meetings. I am not necessarily knocking this, but I think sometimes, our adult sensibilities get in the way of a program that works for the boys. Pick your battles. Is this worth objecting to, particularly if you aren't the SM? Does a scout need to be in uniform to exhibit scout skills? Could he not be carrying whatever "useful tools" he needs, whether he's in uniform or not? By the way, Gandhi would be a wonderful role model for our scouts, and someone whose beliefs and actions mirrored the values of the scout law in numerous ways. Might want to look a little more carefully at what the man stood for. PS: Welcome, to another 'Bob! (This message has been edited by lisabob)

I don't think you ought to worry about what "people at council" think about you right now. Who cares. Actually, by getting to know your DE, you may find you make better headway with your other problem related to summer camp - once somebody knows you as more than a name, and finds out you're a reasonable person, they may be more inclined to accept your feedback on the camp situation and actually do something about it! And I agree that this stage is an adult responsibility - not a youth one. You should call your DE, rather than having your son do it. Fact is, a large part of any DE's annual evaluation is based on the number of new units he or she has started. Consequently, the DE is more than likely going to be thrilled to hear from you that you are ready and willing to start a new Crew, have a potential charter org identified, have a good handful of youth already recruited, and basically just need the DE to close the deal with the CO. Two thoughts on making this work in the somewhat longer term: 1. Line up more adult leaders ASAP. Don't let it be you and your husband. While adults play a signficantly scaled-back role in a Crew, you still don't want this to be a "one family show." Also don't be afraid to look outside of current boy scouting circles for these adults, because a lot of boy scout leader types have difficulty switching over to the style of a Crew, it seems. 2. "Parents of..." or "Friends of..." charter orgs have challenges. Not least, they seldom have any resources to provide to the unit, except what comes out of their own pockets. In comparison an established non-profit org, church, civic group, etc., may be able to help pay for charter fees, provide some equipment, offer camping scholarships to unit members in need, etc. Also, "parents/friends of..." units have a tendency to die off quickly, as soon as the kids age out or the families move away. Finally, you've probably seen that sometimes things happen that result in hurt feelings or lost friendships. If you have a "parents/friends of" group then you run the risk of losing your group/charter org if there were ever a serious disagreement among the adults in the group. Why test your friendships like that. I know you said you are planning to move in a few years anyway, but wouldn't it be better to set up a Crew that has at least the potential to stay in operation long after you are gone, for the sake of other youth in the area who might enjoy it? For those reasons, I'd say skip the "parents/friends of..." route unless it is an absolute last resort. (Just to clarify, what you are describing as "Portland Area Friends" is a more structured and long-term group than what I was referring to. What I was talking about is a group of adults who get together for the sole purpose of sponsoring a unit with the expectation that their sons & daughters will be the members. Those types of "friends of..." groups seldom work out in the long run.) (This message has been edited by lisabob)