Lisabob

I think you will find you have more difficulty getting scouts to check an email address - especially one that is specifically for scouting - than anything else. Most of them probably do have email already, but I am discovering in my interaction with teens and early 20-somethings that these days, they use other media more frequently. Checking email and actually answering is about as common as returning phone calls or writing thank you notes, it seems.

Glad to hear you are splitting the den. Even 12 is a lot. Best thing you can do right now is get the webelos book and start looking at it. Keep in mind, too, that there are plenty of fun activities to do that aren't necessarily in the book (so long as they aren't prohibited or recommended against by other guidelines like G2SS) Go to Round Table and start getting to know area troop leaders. See about doing maybe 2 or 3 things with local troops next year so your boys and their families are comfortable with the troops by the time cross over comes around. Find out if local troops do any sort of early fall activities with webelos and get yourselves invited. This might be just a day activity and not a joint troop+webelos campout at first, and that is ok. Keep the barriers to participation low. Make sure that you plan for activities with high probability of success and fun, that won't scare away less active parents or less experienced campers in the process.

Gee, glad to see National is so on the ball. Seriously? 4 months into the year? shaking my head.

I have been stalked and attacked by heterosexuals. That does not make me hate all heteros. Or all men. And what on earth does this have to do with Merlyn.

I really appreciate your enthusiasm but I still think you are over the top on the camping. 8 times a year (2 with the pack, 6 with the den) is a LOT for most 4th graders. Keep in mind that there is a great deal that you can do with the boys outdoors, without requiring them and their parents to camp. Remember that if you lose the parents you are going to lose the boys, and at the cub level, it is expected that a parent or guardian is going to accompany each boy in most cases. (and with a herd of 24 boys, you had better make sure you have a ton of adults because it is a major challenge to look after 24 9 and 10 year olds for a weekend!) Take a careful look at the parents in that den right now. How many of them are going to be turned off by too much, too soon. My advice is to ease into this more slowly. Many families will have no experience, no equipment (think about costs, too), and uncertain levels of interest in camping. You have them as Webelos for a year and a half. Build some skill and comfort level before you expect them to go wild with camping. You are not running a mini boy scout troop. You are running a webelos den. And hey, there are all kinds of cool things to do in the webelos program. Do not get so focused on camping that you overlook the other stuff.

I agree that more than one camp out a month is too much. Many boy scout troops wouldn't sustain that. Have a lot of fun with the Webelos but don't over-burden them. And don't burn them out on boy scouting before they ever cross over, either.

It strikes me as poor form to have a thread that specifically calls out an individual forum member. I also have not seen anywhere on this forum where it says that posters must be BSA members.

We know many units routinely ignore those policies, either willfully or out of ignorance. I see that especially in cub units where the adults are often new to scouting, leadership turnover is fairly high, and parents are frequently looking for fun children's activities and not a whole lot more. And of course cub scouts are the largest membership group in scouting. So among the largest segment of the scout population, the membership policies are probably the least meaningful. In this regard, I can agree with you Beavah. But that does not take away from the fact that the formal policies of the BSA still exist, and I do not fault Merlyn or others for continuing to challenge those formal policies, especially in the face of evidence that many units don't even adhere to those policies. The BSA is not well served by its existing formal policies, and ought to change them to match the realities on the ground that so many of us already acknowledge (most units are not going to turn away 6 year olds based on the DRP).

I did not start this thread to be a name calling thread, so I hope it does not disintegrate into that sort of behavior. In the initial thread a poster stated that people who belong to an organization where they disagree with the policies are "intellectual cowards," too willing to look the other way. Specifically, regarding the BSA's official exclusion of atheists from membership. I would say that people who are part of the BSA, who disagree with the BSA's exclusionary policies, are often pragmatists but not cowards. When there is critical mass of people WITHIN the BSA who do not like BSA policy, then BSA policy will inevitably change. Outside pressure is valuable too, but I do not think the BSA will alter its policies due to disagreement from non-members. More to the point, in any organization there will probably be some policies with which a member might disagree. If those policies are key to the actual day-to-day life of the organization then this is a real problem. If those policies are not central to the daily function of the group then the individual member must weigh the good and bad. In this case I believe that the BSA has policies on paper that do not match with realities on the ground in a growing number of units. As a result I think those specific BSA's policies are becoming less and less relevant to the daily operational life of many units. I have not one time been witness to a unit that told a boy they couldn't join based on the DRP. In the 9 years that my son has been involved in scouting, I think that I may have heard 1 conversation about this particular issue at a scouting function. This board is about the only place I am aware of where scout leaders ever talk about this kind of thing, and let's face it - we on the board are a tiny minority of scout leaders. The overwhelming majority of unit leaders have probably never even heard of, or read in full, or thought about, the DRP. In reality for many units then, it becomes a non-issue. And that is why I think that having a critical mass of people inside the BSA who do not agree with BSA membership policies will cause the eventual change to those policies. In the meantime, advocating for a tolerant, common-sense, and relaxed (as opposed to rigid, dogmatic, and witch-hunt) approach to working with youth is not cowardly, in my book. It is both difficult work, and work with important real-world impact to improve the lives of our boys.

Yes I got the same one NJ described, about a week ago.

Well we did something kind of like that too, but not until June. For Tigers, Wolves, and Bears, they do not move on to the next rank until the end of the school year (many councils use June 1 as their roll-over date). Even if they have earned their rank badges, there are still lots of electives, etc. to do within their rank while thye finish out the year. And besides, it is just March - what do you mean, Scoutfish, about those who stuck it out the "whole year??" Surely your pack doesn't fold from April to October?? Those are the best months for scouting (weather is nicer)!

I love this forum too. I think I can honestly say I either learn something new or else that I re-evaluate something I think I "know" about the program on a weekly basis, as a result of the many thoughtful people here. Thanks, all!

OGE I think the difference lies in how a company or individual makes its money. Although I think most athletes, actors, and music stars and the like are over-paid, I also recognize that they are unusual or even unique in their talents, and that they are actually making positive, creative, contributions. And in the case of athletes, many put themselves in harm's way every time they perform and their careers are limited. A guy gets hit the wrong way and suffers a career-ending injury, etc. So I don't generally begrudge them their money, even though I think we as a society over-value them (monetarily speaking). But health insurance isn't like that. I think it is more akin to what we've seen with credit card and banking industries. Many people perceive the credit card industry to have run amok, tricking and abusing folks with practices like double cycle billing, universal default, moving payment due dates and due dates on Sundays when there is no mail delivery, charging fees for everything imaginable (including speaking to a "customer service" rep in some cases), etc. THe outrage became so bad that Congress - which has never really been too inclined to legislate credit cards if it could be avoided - did exactly that and passed a bunch of new restrictions on the industry. A lot of folks feel similarly about the insurance industry. People who pay their premiums for years and get dumped when they finally have a medical problem, companies who practice the "three d's" (delay, deny, defend) rather than just providing the services that they contracted for with customers, crazy restrictions on what can and can't be paid or covered, etc., plus sky rocketing rates for an industry which certainly appears to be financially very healthy to the average observer, all get people mad. It is one thing to make a profit and to succeed. It is another to do it through usury or trickery or slimy practices. And that's the impression an awful lot of folks have. No wonder they get riled up. Whether the impression is accurate? Dunno. There is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence.

Hmm, I think it is more complex than that. If the parent is an atheist but the parent is leaving the ultimate decision of what to believe to the child (once the child is capable of making that choice, of course), then the child is not necessarily an atheist. He is - being a young child and as yet rather unformed - undecided. Along the way, the parent may feel that the child will benefit from exposure to others with religious faiths of various types, and scouting does offer that, though more with more or less subtlety in some units than in others. As he grows and becomes more capable of making such important decisions for himself, the young man might eventually come to the conclusion that he is also an atheist. If he does, and he is still in scouting, then under current BSA policy, he has a problem. If he reaches a decision that he is not an atheist, then there is no problem. The BSA doesn't exclude people who aren't entirely sure about their beliefs. This boy might be in that category for the whole of his youth. If so, he would hardly be the only one in most scout units.

As the site Bare Naked Islam puts it, "It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you." Yes, and that's a great resource? You know that just because stuff is on the web, doesn't make it all true? And just because you don't find anything with a quick google search doesn't mean nothing ever occurred or existed? Read about some of the stuff that McVeigh relied upon to justify his actions. Many anti-government, white-power type groups use and abuse Christian theology to support their twisted arguments. Doubt it? Check out the turner diaries. We've been down this road before, but the 9/11 attacks were very widely condemned in much of the Muslim world, too. It could just be that you were not attuned to the sources of that condemnation, and so you (along with a lot of others) may have missed it, or may not have understood the positions of respect and authority held by many who spoke out against such violence. At this point, we have strayed pretty far from the original focus of the thread. I am going to stop discussing the topic with you, JoeBob, but I would implore you to think a little more deeply and question a little more thoroughly, before assuming that the whole of a world religion is out to get you.

Scoutingagain writes: "In this category, purchasing an individual policy was prohibitively expensive." That's the key, though. People feel forced to spin the roulette wheel because the costs of purchasing insurance on their own are so out of reach. I doubt many people think "well affording health insurance really isn't a problem for me, but I think I'll keep my money and spend it on a vacation to the Bahamas (or where ever) instead. After all, I can get free care at the local emergency room." More likely, it goes: "Well I would prefer to buy health insurance and not lose sleep at night, worrying about whether I'll get sick or my kid will have an accident on the school playground and break his arm. But the price is so high that I really don't have much choice so I'm going to pay the rent, make sure I can afford to feed my kid every day, and hope and pray that nothing bad happens in the meantime until I can find another job that offers benefits." Personally, I know that there were periods in my early adult life while I was still trying to establish my career, where that was exactly the calculation I had to make. Thankfully, those periods have been brief. But if I lose my job over the summer, which is possible, I do not know what my family will do for insurance. JoeBob, all I can say is "Wow."

Scoutingagain writes: "In this category, purchasing an individual policy was prohibitively expensive." That's the key, though. People feel forced to spin the roulette wheel because the costs of purchasing insurance on their own are so out of reach. I doubt many people think "well affording health insurance really isn't a problem for me, but I think I'll keep my money and spend it on a vacation to the Bahamas (or where ever) instead. After all, I can get free care at the local emergency room." More likely, it goes: "Well I would prefer to buy health insurance and not lose sleep at night, worrying about whether I'll get sick or my kid will have an accident on the school playground and break his arm. But the price is so high that I really don't have much choice so I'm going to pay the rent, make sure I can afford to feed my kid every day, and hope and pray that nothing bad happens in the meantime until I can find another job that offers benefits." Personally, I know that there were periods in my early adult life while I was still trying to establish my career, where that was exactly the calculation I had to make. Thankfully, those periods have been brief. But if I lose my job over the summer, which is possible, I do not know what my family will do for insurance. JoeBob, all I can say is "Wow."

yann, Let me say that I think that you will find many scouters who do not agree with BSA policy on this matter. It is a controversial topic, even in scouting circles. Nevertheless, some of us remain in scouting because we believe in attempting to change policy from within, rather than from without, and/or because we believe that the good that comes from scouting outweighs the bad, and/or because we believe that in reality, many scouting units are uninterested in strict enforcement or witch hunts when it comes to some of the more controversial policies, with the practical effect that people who want to be scouts, can be scouts. And of course, many, many people are unaware of the BSA stance on this issue, and sign up their kids for scouts because of the widely held (and generally accurate) perception that scouting is a good, wholesome, fun, outdoorsy program for children. Personally, I agree that the current ban on atheists defies common sense. I think that, as long as atheists understand that they and their children will be exposed to some discussions of religion in a scouting context (A Scout is reverent), they should be able to decide for themselves whether they are comfortable with that. If they are, then they should be able to join, in my view. Of course you will also find others who view what I just described with horror, and feel that the religious aspect of scouting is key to developing young people of character. I will let that group speak for itself, rather than try to make their argument for them. Just please do not assume that there is a monolithic support for this policy, even within scouting circles.

In the original thread someone mentioned that it is always the SM's "fault" whenever anybody dislikes anything to do with a troop program. Yep, I have seen this happen. We probably all have. In fact, from time to time I have struggled with this notion myself, because it certainly does appear that where the SM leads, others are going to follow. For a few years, my son's troop had the practice of rotating people out of the SM role after 2 years. So I saw how much the personality, views, and goals of an individual SM shapes the troop. There have been times when I might have admired the character of the SM as an individual, but I thought the person wasn't doing a very good job as a leader for the group. Sometimes this over-reliance on the SM happens out of deference (heck, they are the SM, I am only a "fill in the blank: committee member, assistant SM, parent, bystander"). Sometimes it is for lack of better ideas or knowledge on the part of the SM's support staff (ASMs and committee). Sometimes it is because it is convenient to have someone to "blame" when things aren't going the way we want them to go. Sometimes it is because people just want to go along rather than make waves, and then they wait for the SM to fail. This all must wear on good SMs. But, as unfair as this sometimes is, isn't that kind of the nature of the position? The "buck" has to stop somewhere in the program when it comes to making tough decisions and acting on them.

Beavah, The school district I'm in charges all outside groups for use of school facilities on weekends. They prohibit all outside groups (including scouts) from using "backpack mail" to advertise upcoming events. They do allow for groups to leave flyers in the lobbies or the main office, but they will not distribute them for groups. NHS is probably not the best example for you, because they have local school-affiliated chapters with student officers and faculty advisors. This is, by definition, a school club. Similarly, the Model UN program is linked up with a national MUN society, but the local club is a school-based program. A better example (at least where I live) might be the local driver ed program or the local ski club, which are not school-affiliated (skiing is not a varsity activity and the club is sponsored by a local ski "resort" - driver ed is run by private businesses) in any way even though most of their membership comes from the high school population. If those groups wish to hold events on campus on weekends, they pay the fee. Since someone is bound to ask: the fee pays the janitor's overtime salary for coming in on weekends. And in a cash-strapped state and a cash-strapped school district, there is talk that this fee will soon be extended to include weeknight events for non-school groups too. That would be problematic for us, since many local packs and troops currently meet in school rooms on week nights, for free. I stand corrected about the skiing - it is a varsity activity, but the ski club is separate from that. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

JoeBob, every major world religion has its radicals. That includes Christianity. As a student of political terrorism (from well before the 9/11 attacks) I can tell you there have been many examples of "Christian" terrorists. Timothy McVeigh was a "Christian." He was responsible for the single most devastating domestic terrorist attack in US history. Yet I do not believe that these radical Christian groups are representative of the great mass of Christians in the world, or even of Christians in the US. Would you see him as a fair representation of Christianity? Probably not. So. Why you would believe that a small percentage of people who hold radical and violent beliefs are representative of the great mass of people who follow Islam throughout the world, is beyond me. Regarding Hindus and Muslims - read your Indian history. The two groups have long co-existed, going back well before the division of the subcontinent by the British, into India/Pakistan. That is not to say that there haven't been periods of communal violence, or that there has not been warfare and worse between the two states since 1947. But there have been lengthy periods of peace, too. It is just not as simple as you appear to be suggesting that it is. And incidentally there are Hindu extremists, too.

"If medical care was not given to those who didn't pay (read no insurance) the costs would drop significantly, and 1- more people could afford insurance; and 2- there would be a strong motivation to buy insurance." I don't buy this either. For one thing, we would have significant public health issues. When really sick people do not get treatment, disease spreads more efficiently (if they have something contagious). For another, I think it is an outrage to suggest that the inherent value of someone's life is somehow less because they cannot afford health insurance. That, in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, people should be denied emergency care when they are in dire straits, is inexcusable to me. It is offensive. We might as well go back to the time of Charles Dickens in England (Are there no work houses?) And besides, I am not convinced that prices would actually go down. The incentive might well be for insurance companies to keep their prices high and retain their profits. Your argument really only works if you can produce evidence that lots of folks who could afford insurance are actively choosing not to buy it, so that they can freeload off the public system. And that lots of people who currently have no insurance and are reduced to using mandated public emergency services, are happy with the status quo regarding their health care. Without good, solid, evidence of these, the point you make would be poor public health policy, not to mention being heartless.

On a side note, we have had a number of "buglers" who do their "bugling" on their trumpets. If the kid can at least play trumpet a little bit, couldn't he simply do that? I like Brent's approach to the situation, if you can make it work. It might help you to have this friendly conversation with the dad first though, so that the dad understands that your goal is not to deny the boy rank, but rather, to help develop the boy's character. If you are on the same side it will be a lot easier to work with the boy.

Yes, the alternate can be used as an elective. I don't have ready access to the book at the moment but I am 99% certain that all of this is spelled out in the boy scout handbook where it talks about merit badges. Do you have a copy of the book? If not, it would probably be a good investment.

Sure, Mr. Boyce, so what's your point? Scout groups can already use public facilities like school rooms, under the same terms and conditions that any other community organizations can use them. I don't even think I heard Merlyn oppose that (though maybe he did and I didn't notice). Where I live, many small evangelical Christian groups hold their weekly prayer meetings in the local elementary school cafeteria. They pay the same fees that any other community group (including scouts) would pay to use that room on a weekend. No problem.