Lisabob

Like it or not, the cub program is flexible in that a boy who failed (or skipped) a grade can be held back, or promoted, within cubbing. I've known boys (and parents) who have done each of these. It comes down to what is best for the individual boy (or it should, at least). Still, the current age requirement to join boy scouts is absolute. It isn't "be 10 OR be finished with 5th grade OR have AOL." It requires that a boy be at least 10, no matter what else. I do not think many boy scout camps will accept a 9 year old, at least not knowingly. Nor do I think many 9 year olds are ready for boy scout summer camp, but that's a side issue. It *is* different than putting two brothers of different grades into the same den for the parent's convenience. In this scenario the issue is what is easiest for the parent, and not what is best for each boy. It potentially aligns older and younger brothers' interests against each other. Have you noticed that very rarely do you hear of a parent who wants their older boy to repeat a year of cubbing or start a year late (or with a lower age group) so that two brothers can both be in the younger boy's den? Nope - it is always "oh the younger boy can just tag along with his older brother and be part of their den."

"BSA won't recognize any advancement or rank work due to age discepancies. " I think this is too strong a statement. At the cub level, the BSA is not very particular. I think it is highly unlikely that anything related to advancement in cub scouting would be flagged in scoutnet, unless maybe someone tried to record ranks being earned out of order (Bear before Bobcat, for example, or AoL without Webelos). Boy scouting is a different matter. There, dates can matter a great deal.

Yes, basement, but there still needs to be some limit. It is one thing for occasional siblings, another for this to be a weekly affair. If you, as den leader, start out with 6 boys in the den and pretty soon, you have 10-15 children of various ages and relationships participating every week, then you have many new logistical issues to deal with. Crowd control, extra money for supplies and snacks, age-appropriate activities for a wider group, division of parental and leader attention, etc. In this situation, we're talking about a weekly affair, every meeting. I don't think that is something to be encouraged by pack leadership.

moose - the rules have been updated in the last three or four years to absolutely require that a boy be 10, even if he has AoL. I think that there was a period of time prior to that change when it was possible to join with AoL, even if a boy wasn't yet 10. Since you mention your son is now 19, he may have been covered by different rules than those currently in place. That said, I know some folks who have gotten a special waiver of the age rule from their council - but I'm not sure how legit that is and I wouldn't recommend it, either.

What month is his birthday in? If you do your cross-over for most of the Webelos IIs in March and his 10th birthday is in May or June, that's not a big gap to work with and there may be some flexible solutions. If he doesn't turn 10 until September or October of his 6th grade year, it becomes a little more challenging due to the longer time frame where he isn't a cub and isn't formally a boy scout. Either way, the BSA rule is that a boy has to be at least 10 to be a boy scout, no matter what. You'll also want to look at summer camp options for the summer after 5th grade. Most troops want their new scouts to attend camp, and it tends to solidify the boys' sense of identity as part of the troop (no longer the newbies). This boy could not attend camp if he doesn't turn 10 until later.

"Maybe have the younger son to be a Tiger ? but allow him to do meetings with older brother in Wolves ?" There was another thread recently where this had occurred, and it raised a bunch of problems for the pack. I wouldn't recommend it as a solution to your situation. Additionally, it is unfair to the older boy, to the den leader (which might not always be the dad in question), and to the other boys in the den to allow lots and lots of tag-along siblings. Where do you draw the line and say "no, this den is for boys who are actually *in* the den." If you draw no line, then you should expect other parents to start bringing everybody under the sun to their boys' den meetings, too. Siblings, cousins, toddlers, neighbor kids, etc. What's good for this one dad would be disastrous, if everybody did it. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Just wanted to note that the other "hot" thread in this section right now is about a troop that won't allow women to be in leadership roles, camp with their troop, or even (heaven forbid) stay in the same hotel on long trips. Can't get much more "good old boy" than that, I wouldn't think. (motives for this could be discussed in the other thread - just saying, here's a literal GOB example.)

After reading this article, I am left with uncertainty about an individual's orientation. This sentence: "The annual GALAXY ball for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning teens..." indicates that not everyone there is necessarily gay. Additionally, the photo appears to show some boys and girls dancing together. Maybe some of the attendees are there in support of their friends. Another question - suppose that the article had been written almost entirely as-is, but omitting the words "boy scouts" in the second paragraph (which is really just a throw-away and not the main point of the article at all). If the article had only been about a prom for kids who aren't or might not be hetero, would this current flap occur? Or is it that the author specifically mentioned "boy scouts" (albeit in passing)? But, suppose for a moment that this boy is most definitely, 100% certain that he is gay, or bi, or transgender, or whatever. In scouting, he is still a "youth" and so I stand by my original post, in terms of how scouts should treat him. Even setting that aside, though: He has been a scout for how many years? He has earned Eagle? Based on how you have described your troop program in the past, Stosh, I must suppose that you, or other adult volunteers, have seen much to admire in this boy. You have taught him, you've been mentors and role models to him. You've acknowledged his achievements as a young man and a leader, himself. At the very minimum, you now owe this boy the courtesy of a very quiet, supportive, discussion about his plans, post-Eagle, in scouting. You don't know whether he intends to leave once he gets his award? Why don't you know this? Ask him. Don't bring up the sexuality issue, just have a friendly SM conference about his future expectations.

Info here is nearly always better. When I was more active in stuff, this caused no end of irritation for others I dealt with, along with winning me a few adult-beverage bets.

I don't think this is fair to the boy, although I understand the dad's line of thinking here (it is just easier). Problems: 1. Actually doing Tigers on his own won't be such a stretch (he's what, 6? He can still find lots of fun in Tiger activities that he already visited with his older brother). Doing a 3rd year of Webelos would be different. He'd be at a very different developmental stage and probably would resent having to sit through repeats of stuff at that age. As a 3rd year Webelos, the temptation would be strong for him to say "I'm quitting" or "I'll sit this year out and just join the troop when I'm old enough" (which, in my experience, tends not to actually happen) 2. Greaves is 110% right about him being upset when all his legitimate webelos (II) friends move on to boy scouts and he has to stay back another year. 3. Moving him along to boy scouts a year early with the rest of his webelos den might be possible, but only if he meets the minimum age to be in boy scouts (10). Many 4th graders are only 9. 9 year olds cannot be boy scouts. 4. So he will be 10 in 4th grade and moves to boy scouts early - now he is probably the youngest and least mature in the troop. The transition to boy scouting is hard enough on some boys, without putting this pressure on them. Not to mention additional pressure on troop leaders, who already are dealing with a tremendous range of ages and maturity levels. 5. Just because boys are only a year apart doesn't mean they're the same, or they want to do things the same way. Additionally, both boys may lose out on their parent's attention - which is kind of the point of Tigers, in particular. 6. If this dad can do this, how many other parents are you willing to allow to do this in the future? Why have separate dens at all?

I know better than to answer this and I'm not going to get drawn into long discussions. But here goes. In a scouting context, youth are to be considered asexual. Scouts are youth, while sexual matters are those of adults. Thus, an Eagle scout who is under the age of 18, is still a youth and therefore we do not inquire into his eventual sexual orientation. We treat him like we treat any youth.

This troop has the right to have such a policy, but I think they should have been much more up-front about it. I would move my son to a different troop. People who subscribe to this sort of policy are likely to hold a variety of other social views that I would find abhorrent and wouldn't want my child to be subjected to. (That said, I also agree that there is a lot of value in letting a young man go camping without a parent attending. For example, I rarely have camped with my son's troop, because I felt he needed the space to do his own thing. But, if that is the case for you, it should be because that's what you think is right for your son at his particular stage of development, and not because some troop imposes these gender roles upon you.) (This message has been edited by lisabob)

dratted double post - sorry!(This message has been edited by lisabob)

How about: "panning for gold" - really about geology. Rocks and minerals are exciting to a lot of boys and there can be some tie-ins to some advancement options for geology belt loop (for any rank) and/or geology activity pin requirements (for Webelos) pioneer cooking (keeping it very simple) - make johnny cakes (corn bread) in a cast iron pan with the kids. Corn bread muffin mix is cheap and takes about 20 minutes to cook pioneer trail - do something with a compass or maps or even just following clues along a trail, to simulate the westward movement (raging rivers, bears, etc. to make it more interesting) covered wagons - I am not a huge fan of arts/crafts but if you can find a way to have each kid "make" covered wagons to take home, hey that could be fun knots - there must have been plenty of things that pioneers needed knots and lashings for! Keeping in mind that many kids are pretty clueless about how to tie even a square knot and your littlest guys might still struggle with left hand/right hand - so KISMIF really applies - you could have some fun with this. Maybe younger kids make a tripod to hang a cooking pot from, older kids lash together poles for a simple shelter? Pioneer Toys - Here's a set of directions for making a "buzz saw" which is basically a button or round disk on a string (with handles on the string). When you twist it, the button spins and makes a noise. Apple dolls and corn husk dolls would be period-specific too but maybe wouldn't go over so well with boys! http://library.thinkquest.org/6400/buzz%20saw.htm Camp Fire with pioneer songs (lots to choose from - find somebody who plays guitar) Hope this helps!

"If it's a boy-led program, these boys are the closest thing to the adults in the group, treat them that way." Amen to that.

In our experience, by the time the kids got to Webelos rank, they were a lot less interested in the "glamour" of earning the belt loops (or the pins) anyway, but a few belt loops are Webelos requirements. Still, whether they are 'easy' or 'hard' for a particular age isn't really the issue. I agree that they should not be limited to specific ranks. Different kids develop differently, or have different home experiences. If earning a belt loop encourages a 5th grade webelos scout to try something new, fine.

Scoutfish, I'm sure you know this but just a note - I don't recall that a boy has to do ALL of the requirements for the pin. In most cases, I think it was "do 5 (7?) of the following..." Yes? The requirements are still more detailed and time consuming than the loops, but kids (parents) could still cherry pick the relatively easier options.

Great point, sherminator. Maybe another way to say this - helping is never a waste of time, even if the pay-off isn't immediately apparent.

While the pins are a good bit of work in many instances, the belt loops are not. They're simple. In fact I can easily imagine that a boy might have met requirements in class at school, just in the normal course of things. I don't think it is worth grilling the parent or seeming to question that. You'll proceed to tick off the parent, who will simply find a way to "prove" that their darling earned the loop or pin, anyway. This isn't to say I approve of such an approach, but I don't think it is one you'd gain much from fighting against. Bottom line: Have a cordial conversation with the parent to ensure they understand the requirements for earning the pins are not the same as for the loops. Then give the kid the bling. That, alone, isn't going to keep this kid in scouting for very long anyway. The parent is responsible for whatever sort of moral lesson they might be teaching their kid, not you.

Find out why he is moving on. Be open to hearing things you may disagree with, in the process. Understand that perceptions matter (even if you don't share them) and don't get defensive. Is he moving on because the program has become stale? Is it because he is tired of being controlled (or yelled at, or worse) by adults or other scouts? Is it because he is too busy? Is it because he has just developed other interests? Is it because some family circumstances have changed and now it is harder for him to get to the meetings and events? Has he decided he just really doesn't enjoy camping that much? Is your troop just not a good fit for his personality? All of these might be valid reasons. Some of them, you can address, but only if you know they exist. I see a lot of troop leaders who stick their heads in the sand, instead. When a kid starts to pull away, they start back stabbing the kid. "Well he wasn't ever really a good/committed scout" or "he never liked hiking/camping/whatever activity anyway" "he's a momma's boy" or "his parents never understood us and our program to begin with." As if a) there is fault to be assigned, and b) it should be assigned 100% to the kid and his family. Is it any surprise then, that kids who have begun to drift away for whatever reason and then get this treatment, drift still further?

Take the title. Tell whoever it is who is in charge (or whoever you can get to listen) that as training chair, you are going to need to triage for a while, and that you expect their enthusiastic help (not just moral support) while you get this straightened out, as a condition for taking the position. Pick ONE section of training in your district to focus on for a bit. If it is IOLS, fine. If it is cub leader training, fine. Fix that one section. Then you can start working on other areas. Me, I'd begin with leader-specific because I think it is the lowest-cost. A good training team can put this together with relatively short notice and few resources. Anything that is field work like IOLS or BALOO/OWL becomes more of a long-term project. Other than trainers, who do you *want* on your training team? I'm not sure what positions you seek to fill.

Realistically: you aren't going to get the money from this guy. The pack needs to be prepared to cover the loss somehow. Reselling the popcorn is a good idea. Or maybe you can use it as thank-you gifts to people who have helped the pack this year. For example, our pack always made sure to give some to the school custodian, who were indispensable to us. It would be too bad, if one or both of the boy's parents would use him as a pawn in their power games, like you suggest. But you can't allow yourself to get in the middle of parental squabbling because no matter what you do, you won't win there. The parents themselves are going to have to be the ones responsible for whether their kid is in scouts next year - way beyond your control.

In general - I think you don't need to encourage this. Let them enjoy an array of activities, not all related to "earning" something for scouts. When everything a kid does winds up being connected to scouts by the parents, the kid may come to resent scouts in general and scout advancement in particular, for "taking over" his life. If they want to, fine - but if not, don't push it, even when the overlap seems obvious to you.

Just because you didn't get the results you were hoping for, doesn't mean what you did had no effect. Who knows, a couple of months or years (or decades) from now, one of those boys might remember his interaction with you and his additional time in the troop as something from which he learned a great deal. Failure can be constructive, too.

I haven't done this so I could also be totally off-base. But I think that starting a troop might actually be harder. Not only do you need more (expensive) gear to get a quality outdoor program going, you also need more adults with actual know-how, who are willing to spend larger amounts of sustained time. It is one thing to commit to a one-hour pack meeting once a month; another to commit to being responsible for other people's kids in the woods, all weekend long, every month. Also, the "vision thing" is more important with a troop. In cubs, as long as there are fun things going on and people are basically following the program, you don't get too many philosophical arguments (you get a lot of practical arguments and occasional power trips or personality clashes, but that's different). In boy scouts, you get a LOT of disagreement about what "boy led" means and how to make it a reality. That fundamental disagreement can lead to some very challenging inter-personal dynamics. Third, personalities are more important. In cubs, because interaction is relatively short-term and a boy's parent(s) are typically there too, an adult who isn't always fabulous at relating to children can still be a passable leader. In boy scouts, you need a person with a strong ability to relate well to teenage boys under physically and emotionally challenging circumstances. Many adults are poorly suited for this, but a good troop can't really exist without a critical mass of these folks.