Lisabob

For the most part, my son's troop does a decent job of patrol cooking and shopping. Here's what they do. 1) They have a patrol cooking box for every patrol, with all the basic cooking gear inside (spatulas, big spoons for stirring, knives, can openers, pots, pans, etc.). If the patrol is cooking something that requires special equipment then it is their job to bring it - but that's generally not an issue and they can just load their patrol cooking box into the troop trailer. All the patrols have the same type of stove (don't ask me, I don't know what brand) to work with, or they can do dutch oven (have to bring one separate from the cooking box- those aren't typically in the boxes because they're big and heavy) or open fire cooking too. 2) Patrols finalize a menu, turn it in for approval, and select a boy to do the patrol shopping, all a week or so in advance of the campout. They have a budget ($10/boy for the weekend x # of boys attending from their patrol). They are expected to stay within that budget and will be reimbursed for their expenses at the next meeting, as long as they turn in a receipt attached to their approved menu. 3) The troop provides another box and a large cooler for every patrol to store their food. The designated shopper takes these home a week or so before the campout and brings them back to the meeting after the campout. These generally include some stock items (seasoning, syrup, etc) and the shopper is supposed to check these items out to see what needs replacing/supplementing before he does his shopping. 4) The boys select a "head cook" for their patrol for the weekend (or sometimes just for the day and they rotate - it depends). The other boys will be expected to help too but that boy is in charge of the meal(s). 5) This all takes some training since half of the younger boys have never boiled water, let alone cooked dinner for 5-8 people. We're lucky in that there are older boys in the troop who are decent cooks and they have helped teach the younger ones (troop guides, etc.). Also patrol advisors keep an eye out for any really problematic food safety issues. 6) One key to success is really menu planning. Sometimes the boys turn in the least practical things and need a little coaching. Sometimes they need a "safe" environment within which to fail. I know, having gone through a couple of campouts where half the stuff they actually needed wasn't included on their shopping lists, my son's patrol got the hang of planning after that. And they didn't starve in the meantime, they just had to make some adjustments. If the boys are used to troop cooking or adult cooking then this might be a hard thing to wean them from. But I've noticed that, while my son doesn't love cooking for the patrol and detests the shopping part, it has taught him organizational and leadership skills (as well as cooking skills) although I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Not to mention, he appreciates a "mom-cooked" meal so much more! So I'd say it is worth it. Lisa'bob

Hello and welcome. Here are a couple of places where I have found good lists of things to look for/questions to ask. Of course some of these are directed more at the parents than at the boys, and some of the lists are long, so I'm not sure I'd hand the whole thing to the boys - but maybe there will be a few things on these lists that you find particularly helpful. http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/goodtroop.html (some characteristics of a good troop and a list of questions at the end) http://insanescouter.com/t276/webelos/index.html (info on all things webelos. Scroll down to the bottom and there are a variety of webelos-scout transition links, including questions to ask troops) Ideally, I think the webelos boys should be asking as many questions of the boys in the troop as possible, without mom & dad hovering right there. Parents and other adults might want to know the same things - but let them ask the adult leaders of the troop themselves. This encourages a couple of things: 1) the webelos begin to get to know the boys in the troop on their own terms and perhaps also begin to recognize that in boy scouts, the youth, not the adults, provide the leadership most of the time, and 2)it allows the parents to get the info they want without (unintentionally) taking over the boys' space and initiative, and 3) it allows the webelos boys and their parents/leaders to compare notes from different angles later on But that's just my take and I do realize there are some boys who are likely to hang very close to their parent's side when they visit. Lisa'bob

I understand where you are coming from. However, keep in mind that the aims of scouting are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness, and not knot tying, camping, and cooking. The outdoors is simply the setting within which these less tangible goals are taught, modeled, and practiced. Much of the WB for the 21st Century focuses on helping leaders figure out how to build and execute a program that will reach these aims. As for learning outdoor skills, well I am all for more outdoor skills training - lots more, more is better, the more the merrier, and so on. However, there are many opportunities to get that training, both in and out of scouting. There are not any other leadership development courses like WB, at least not in the framework of scouting. But if you are looking for outdoor skills training at this time, let me suggest you take OLS if you haven't already done so. I think I remember you saying you are currently a cub leader; if so you may also want to take the Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (or whatever your council is calling it these days - the name keeps changing around here). Lisa'bob

purcelce, I was told that it is standard practice to split up "best buds" and folks from the same unit. The reasoning? Avoid cliques w/in a patrol and encourage better networking. If you and your best bud are in different patrols then between you, you'll get to know twice as many people. And if you're lucky then one of you will be a Bobwhite! Lisa'bob

Jeff, The current WB course has been the standard for the last 6 years or so("WB for the 21st Century"). The "old" WB course that most people I know are referring to is the one that was in place during the 1990s. Aside from the segregation of cubs vs. boy scout leaders, the major difference in content is that the "old" troop-level WB course focused a great deal more on outdoor skills, while the "new" WB (for all leaders) focuses much more on leadership skills. There are pockets of people who have expressed the sentiment that the current course is "soft" as a result. My take is that it probably isn't better or worse, just different. But better, worse, whatever, the current course is the only course out there. And personally I found it to be extremely worth while. Lisa'bob

OUCH. That's a pretty hefty price tag. I had no idea it would be that expensive - doesn't sound very thrifty to me. (and really, it ought not to be unless everyone's flying first class! As you say Eamonn, it is easy enough to travel to anywhere in Europe for a lot less than that.) Ah well.

Cool! I love Sweden. Gotta start talking with my son about maybe going (and saving our pennies!) now. For those who don't read Swedish - yes, there's info on the web site but it doesn't say much anyway. Looks like they're holding a national jambo in Rinkaby in 2007 which is expected to have very strong attendance. And now for a very basic question: What do you have to do get into your national contingent in order to attend a world jambo? Or can anybody go? Lisa'bob

OK it is late and I'm just playing around with this. But I've thought several times over the last year that there are a few adults in my son's troop (incl. current SM) who would benefit greatly from WB, both personally and in terms of their scouting activities. In particular I see a need to work on team building, communication, leading change, and maybe most important, building a shared vision. I'd really like to do what I can to encourage them. I've mentioned it a few times though and gotten pretty uninterested responses. The obstacles as I see them are: 1. Around here the second WB weekend is always labor day, which doesn't work well. (I realize this is a tough one to get around) 2. I am the only person in the troop who has done the current WB course. I did it when I was a cub leader. And admittedly I haven't always seen eye to eye with some of our troop's "old guard" leaders regarding the need for any change or different approach to the things I mentioned above, so I may not be in the best position to persuade them. 3. The only other people from the troop who have had WB in recent memory took the "old" course. (Of these, one left the troop several years ago and I expect the other will this year since her son is off to college.) Several folks, perhaps following these people's lead, have commented that they'd gladly take the old course but aren't too sure about the new course. Help me brainstorm a little. I can talk about why I personally believe WB is worth the time and money until I'm blue in the face but it hasn't worked so far. I think I need some different approaches to convince these guys that it is worth THEIR time and money. What do you tell people who aren't already chomping at the bit, to get them interested in the course? Lisa'bob

Did you all see the ad for it toward the back of this month's BOy's Life? They've tied it in with learning about surfboards. At first I thought, hey cool, a surfboarding MB! Then I read it again. My son wasn't too excited to hear he could learn about plastics, I must admit. I don't see a big demand for this one. Lisa'bob

John, Thanks for the advice John. To clarify, let me just say that this was a neighboring council, not our own council, and the troop was already planning on going to a different camp next year anyway (Our home council doesn't run a boy scout camp). Personally I still think a letter is in order but as an out-of-council unit, and given that the council that ran the camp is huge, and the same guy has been running the camp for 30+ years, I think any impact we'd have is likely to be pretty small. Still I guess my question is more about what happens in the unit after something like this, and less what should happen at the district or council level. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it is within the authority of the SM to figure out how to approach this situation (as opposed to, say, the committee chair or ASMs or other committee members).

Congratulations John! I'm so glad to hear you are having fun with it and keep it up. Lisa'bob

Dealing in hypotheticals is so tough. Here's a couple of real-life situations. My son got a bunch of bogus completions at camp as I mentioned in the other thread. Some of the blue cards were returned to the scouts in the morning after check-out, on our way out of camp (not much time to rectify errors at that point, though in some cases I certainly did try). Several other blue cards were mailed after camp was over and just recently arrived, marked "complete." For one badge where he did receive a blue card at camp, archery, he came to me later in the day scratching his head and saying, gee, I don't understand how this could be right since I never did make that arrow ... For the others, which just arrived in the mail, well I knew right away that something was wrong because I knew, more or less, what they did at camp that week. And it was my job to help the whole troop choose MBs to work on at camp, and then to register them, so I became quite familiar with the requirements for many of the badges. To be honest, I think half the boys were less aware of the requirements than I was - some took a rather laissez faire approach ("the MB counselor will spoon-feed me whatever I need to know") and others just had a million things buzzing around in their brains and didn't seem to recall the requirements in any detail. So, knowing what I did about their experiences and the actual requirements, I asked my son, did you know that you were supposed to do x, y, or z for this MB? Son's answer: no I didn't know that - I never did that and the MBC signed it anyway. We then had a harder look, together, at the requirements and he can't recall doing quite a few of them. These are not ambiguous items either - they included obvious stuff like jumping into the lake fully clothed (swimming), cleaning and cooking a fish (fishing), working on a conservation project (fish & wildlife management), writing 12 bars of music (music), having a rock collection (geology), etc. There are others that they might - or might not - have done together in a group demonstration, or sit & listen session. He can't remember. So how'd this come to light? "Mom" asked him about it. He acknowledged it. (My real question is, what to do about it now? Is this a "mom" thing or a SM/scout thing? Even though, as "mom" I'm also active as an adult leader...) But if I hadn't been involved and we had simply trusted the camp staff's records, he'd blithely receive 5 mbs for which he did not truly meet the requirements. As much as I like to think otherwise, I believe he wasn't paying sufficient attention to the actual requirements to realize, on his own, that he hadn't met them. I know it wasn't a desire to cheat the system, just a matter of being a kid with an attention span to match, and also the (natural) desire to take the easy road and accept what's given to you. By the way, there was another young man who somehow ended up with signed cards for MBs (eagle-required!) he never took at camp - and he was indiscrete enough to brag about it to some of the other boys and adult leaders. Though it likely would've come to light anyway since he "earned" 8 mbs even though there were only 6 mb sessions in a day. So here are two situations, neither of which included any "retesting," where Ed's question applies. Personally my gut instinct is to say there's a difference between a kid in my son's position, who did attend the classes and who did do the work that the MBCs asked for, on one hand, and a kid who gamed the system and managed to snag some completed blue cards for MBs he never even took, on the other hand. In the first case, I'd say ok, let the boy have the badge but encourage him to finish the requirements on his own. In the second case it feels like a complete lie to even give the boy the badge, and I'd also have a real, real hard time sitting on that boy's BOR for Life or Eagle if he was given those badges without earning them. But then too, I'm the mom in the first case and don't know if that kind of approach would look like favoritism to others. Lisa'bob

Julie, that's really cool. Just a suggestion - maybe you and the den leader would like to work on the language & cultures beltloop and pin with all of the boys in the den this year. It would give your son an opportunity to share some of his experiences within a structure, and give the other boys & their families a chance to share their backgrounds too. You know, boys that age love to feel that they have input into the conversation too. It may also be a nice way to draw in extended family members, who may have lived abroad or who might be immigrants, themselves. And I know when we did this with our pack, I was amazed at how much international experience our quiet little midwestern group had! Lisa'bob

Gee, I'd say use it! As an added bonus maybe it will help your son share something neat from another culture with the boys in his den. I know when my son was that age, all the boys thought the idea of there really being a Loch Ness monster was pretty intriguing and this was a hot topic for conversation (heck, he still thinks about it - it comes up out of the blue on long car rides sometimes). Lisa'bob

This summer my son's troop went to a summer camp in a nearby council and, for the most part, they had a good time. I was really happy to see that. And before anybody jumps on what I've written below, yes I agree that MBs are not the main point of summer camp and I really don't care how many my son - or any other boys - came back with. However, there were some problems with MBs that many of you more seasoned leaders will probably be familiar with. Namely, boys got credit for things they didn't do. In some cases it was minor but in others it was blatant - boys getting signed, completed blue cards for MBs they never even took and there's simply no way they could've earned, for example (and these were for Eagle-required MBs, to boot). To say the least, I wasn't thrilled. My own son - and here's where I will appreciate your input because the "mom" in me is coming out - "earned" 5 MBs and a partial on a 6th. I know for a fact that he didn't actually do all of the requirements for at least 3 of the "completed" ones, and that he didn't do one of the things that did get signed off, for the partial. He was shocked to receive a completion for archery because he never made an arrow. For fishing, they only actually fished on one day for 1/2 an hour; he didn't cook a fish (he caught one - not two - and released it) and he hasn't got any idea about the knots mentioned. For fish & wildlife management I can't see how he could've done requirements 5 & 6 and he has no recollection. And so on. He and I have a difference of opinion over how to approach this. We've had that chat about how you are cheating yourself if you accept recognition for things you haven't earned. He agreed he would look up one of the dads in the troop who is also an archery MBC and learn how to make arrows with him, so he'll actually finish the requirements for that one, at least. And he actually did do the requirements that had already been signed off for the partial, after camp on his own - though not for a MBC. But the other MBs, he wants to just let it slide because there's so much and he isn't even really sure which requirements he truly did and which ones were fudged at this point. I think it is overwhelming. Also he's a kid and the temptation to take the easy road is there. So I'm left wondering how best to approach this. On one hand, he had a good week at camp and that's really important in its own right. Also I don't want him to feel as though he's having to do "extra" work that the other boys aren't doing (although I'm certain that if there were that many questions about my son's MBs, there are just as many about the other boys' too). And I know, understand, and agree, that if he has been told he earned it, it cannot be withheld, if he wants to accept it. On the other hand, what kind of lesson do you learn from getting, not earning, a bunch of awards? And also these were all subjects that he generally enjoys and would probably love, if he were to work with someone really knowledgable to actually finish them - if he could get past the notion that Mom here is "making" him do it. Do I encourage him? Or leave it be? Do I have this conversation w/ the SM, who most likely won't pursue it anyway because that would mean the whole troop's MBs from camp are suspect? By the way I'm a member of the troop committee, fully trained, and a MBC myself. I helped the boys choose their MBs for camp this summer and will be doing the same again next summer. I'm trying to look at this from not just a parent's perspective but rather, a troop perspective, but you all know that's harder when it is your own kid. And what am I supposed to recommend next summer - don't bother earning any MBs at camp because they're likely to be bogus??? Grr. Lisa'bob

I had a friend from WB who did a presentation to parents in a cub pack on the various ways that packs could, and perhaps should, be diverse (race was not the main focus because the area was overwhelmingly white - but think of economic, social, religious, educational, etc.) I was there to help him evaluate the presentation. He mentioned, as part of his talk, that his son's pack included several boys with learning disabilities and - to my great shock - a bunch of parents made comments about how they didn't want any "retards" in their sons' packs. He then went on to include statistics (with proper citations) about the percentage of children with various disabilities in the school population today, and how likely it was that their own sons' friends - and perhaps their own sons - were part of that population. It was a good teaching moment. Lesson: think of diversity in more ways than just the most obvious, particularly if you don't live in a racially diverse area.

Part of the problem with symbolism is that we don't all interpret it the same way. Yes, the confederate flag(s) may have many different meanings and historical precedents, not all of which are linked to slavery and racism. But interpretation is also colored both by knowledge and experience, and many people are going to be offended by such a flag, even if offense wasn't entirely intentional. Another part of the problem is that, at least where I live, scouting is not a terribly diverse organization, for all that it claims to want to be. And there are many who think all this talk of diversity within scouting is really just window dressing rather than a truly valued concept. So when a group of scouts gets together that is diverse, (a rare occasion around here - more than likely only at a council-wide event like summer camp, for many units) and one part of that group does something that is considered patently offensive to another part of that group, well we have a bigger problem and people can say (right or wrong) that see, here's just another example of how scouting talks a good game about diversity but doesn't actually mean it. The whole situation as described is sad and it sounds as though everyone agrees that the former Ranger was out of line with regard to how he tried to "solve" it - but I also agree the SM and the Camp Director could've diffused this situation themselves long before the Ranger felt such a need to act. I'm thinking that if handled differently, it could've been a great teaching moment, maybe on this theme: "A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own." Lisa'bob

Sorry to hear you are having a rough time of it, scoutmom! I don't know what is typical but I can say from my experience a couple of years ago that the second weekend was much more relaxed and actually a better learning experience for me, than the first weekend. We too had some issues with our CD, who has many strengths, but tends to be a difficult person to work with and often didn't seem to be "walking the talk." None the less, it was an absolutely worthwhile experience, for the network that WB helped me build, the renewed perspective on some personal goals, and the things I was able to bring back and share with my unit, both in the form of ticket items and other ideas. I guess what I'm saying is: don't let a poor experience w/ the CD diminish the value of WB, which is really more focused on your personal growth and helping strengthen your unit. Get those things out of it regardless of the CD and it can still be a "mountain top" experience. Lisa'bob

In my son's troop the adults pay their own way for everything,except for recharter fees, which the troop/CO pick up. The troop has done well with fundraisers, but the prevailing attitude among the adults is that we'd rather see the money used toward new gear or to help the boys pay their way, than to pay for our own adventures. After all, we're only facilitators here - this is not our club, it is the boys' troop. Lisa'bob

I think it is really easy to blame those who aren't as involved as we are. And in some cases, maybe it is also justified because there are some real couch potato types out there. And of course I sometimes wonder why they ever thought they wanted to have kids because they certainly don't seem to want to do anything with, or for, their kids (then again, maybe they didn't actually want to have kids? who knows). On the other hand, our society is not set up in a way that encourages joining. I can get all kinds of professional recognition and monetary and social rewards for working a job that requires me to be away from home 80 hours a week. I get very little overt recognition for the time I put into volunteering. And in fact, I might be penalized, both socially and professionally, for putting volunteering or community activities (groups) in front of yet another hour of blackberry connectivity or yet another business trip. The suburban life most Americans live isn't set up to encourage involvement. We live isolated lives in our houses or apartments in neighborhoods with no sidewalks or public spaces, barely getting to know the neighbors, and needing a car to even get to the local park or town square (if there is one). Over-coming this structural impediment is difficult and takes energy. And then if you're a single parent, or you live far away from your extended family, there's no support for you to go out and join. Who would watch the kids? Is the time you put into community groups detracting from your time with your kids? Can you afford to hire a babysitter (can you even find one)? So I've noticed, most of the people who seem to be joiners around here fit one or more of the following: 1) they don't work, or work part time, or their spouse/sig other fits one of these descriptions 2) they are professionals with jobs where they can control their own schedule 3) they work in jobs where social involvement is a requisite job function, like ministers, teachers, outreach coordinators for non-profits, etc.. But no doubt, we're becoming a society of loners and I agree, it isn't good. Lisa'bob

As always there are many sides to any story. From personal experience not too long ago as a "new parent" (in a different troop, but similar issues) let me suggest a few things that these gung ho new parents might be thinking. These aren't in a sequence and may, or may not, come packaged together. 1. Here your new parents are, ready to help, but the existing leadership is clique-y and not very welcoming of new members or ideas. They're stuck in the "we do it this way because we've always done it this way" mode, sure to breed some resentment. 2. Your new parents may have just come from cubs but they might have worked really hard to educate themselves about how boy scouts works and how it is different from cubs. Seeing is different from reading/training, true, but don't patronize them by assuming they are completely clueless. (I was told that even though I had been to WB and received my beads, took all the training I could, and helped coordinate our district's webelos-scout transition program, those "didn't count" since I was still involved w/ cubs at the time) 3. Boy-led can be messy and frustrating to parents with limited time/resources, if it isn't working well. I know that the few months of meetings where the highlight was playing (ahem) duck duck goose because the PLC was failing to plan or execute well, did not sit AT ALL well with me, or several other new parents, or the boys either, in my son's troop. We paid all this money and are investing all this time, for that? Along the same lines - for the first few months I saw some physical activity at meetings that I really wasn't happy about (older boys flinging younger ones over their shoulder, swinging them around in ways I thought unsafe, etc.). In cubs an adult would've immediately stepped in, which wasn't happening here. Lots of "new parents" got the notion that the adults "in charge" were either clueless or just not paying attention, and could these same people then be trusted to take our sons camping? An open discussion about what was going on behind the scenes, why things were a bit rocky and how it was being addressed, would've helped dispell some of these worries and might have kept some tensions between new parents and "seasoned" adult leaders from developing. 4. It needs to be clear that the adults who are involved are there for the boys, and not purely for their own reasons. Of course it should be fun (why would we ever sacrifice so much of our time, personal lives, and money if it weren't?) but boy scouts is not a camping club for a clique of adults, where the boys are just an excuse to go out. If that's how it looks to new parents, you're going to have some problems. When new parents get the above impressions, whether right or wrong, it is often the result of poor communication among all of the adults. Personally I really think it is incumbent on the existing adult leaders to reach out, rather than to blame these "difficult" new parents, who may have legitimate concerns from their point of view. Sure there are some people who are just a pain and you'll get your share of those, but if you're seeing a whole group of new parents coalescing around one or a couple of these vocal new leaders, then that suggests to me that the established leaders haven't done a good enough job of working with the new parents to help them learn the program and find a place within it where they can be productive. Lisa'bob

In our case about half of the committee members will probably never attend a campout, for a variety of reasons, and the other half attend more campouts than they miss. I think if we told them that they were either required, or not allowed, they'd be seriously offended, we'd probably lose some of them completely, and as a result our program would suffer. We do make a clear distinction between committee and ASM positions and responsibilities. The SM does not authorize committee members to sign books for rank advancement, regardless of their expertise, in order to maintain a check and balance system when it comes to BORs. But that doesn't mean our committee members don't work with the boys in areas of their expertise - they just don't sign off on things. I also agree that attending at least some functions makes it easier to conduct relevant BORs because you get to know the boys differently than you would just watching them at troop meetings. I know that attending even a few events really changed my perspective on BORs and helped me see what kinds of things I could/should be asking in order to help the boys learn from their experiences. Also as a committee member it helps to have that experience from the campouts when a problem arises and the SM comes to the committee seeking input (or, potentially, when the committee sees a problem and wants to address it w/ the SM - he can't very well say, "what do you know, you're never at these campouts" - not that I think our SM would say that, but hypothetically I'm sure this comes up on occasion.) Lisa'bob

CNY, are all the kid playing the same sport? Maybe you'll have some meetings where all the kids playing (say) football aren't there, but the rest are, and then the next meeting all the soccer kids aren't there but the football kids are. Well ok. Not the easiest way to do things but maybe that's how it has to be for a while? In the meantime, if the kids can only make it to some day events, help them identify some fun, easy activities that don't require a whole lot of planning and then make the most of those. It may not be what your vision for the ship really is but as others have said, it will take time to get to that vision, and the vision also may change. Hang in there. Lisa'bob

I understand the frustration that several people have expressed regarding boys who show up for a few meetings and then vanish. As often as not, there are a variety of underlying family issues and not merely competition with sports, etc.. And it is true that a very brief exposure really isn't sufficient to decide whether the program is to their liking or not. But then, I've also known a few boys who spent only a brief time in the program for whatever reasons. Down the line, I've heard from them or their parents that even though they were only scouts for a little bit, the time they did put in had a large and positive impact on their lives. One kid I'm thinking of in particular joined my son's webelos den when he was in 4th grade. He'd never been involved in any social activities, had a rough home life, and pretty severe learning disabilities, very shy and not many friends. He only stayed with us for about 6 months because his family moved to some extremely rural area across the country that didn't have scouting programs available (and/or the parent lacked a social network to help him get to one). I didn't think we'd done much for this boy. But I got an email from his mom about two years after they moved. Turns out he was still talking about how much he enjoyed scouting, the experiences he'd had with us and the friends he had made in our pack. She said it was the first really positive social experience he'd had as a kid. And I helped her locate a troop in their area that would work with her to make sure he AND his brother (who had never been involved with scouts before) got to meetings and had a decent time. I've heard from them a couple of times since and he's doing well. Another boy who was in our unit has severe medical problems and is frequently in the hospital. He missed more than half the meetings easily. Sadly they didn't come back after his first year because they just couldn't juggle everything (they had several other kids and again not much of a social network to draw on). But again, his parents said the time that he was in the program was the most "normal" time of his childhood and he thoroughly enjoyed it, within the limits of his ability to participate. So maybe the kids who are with us only a short time don't appear to get much from the program based on our standards, but for some of them, even a little bit means a lot and may impact them down the road. Having said that, the ones who cross over but clearly never intend to join, those boys, I believe we've (collective "we" including parents, leaders, DEs who are counting heads, etc.) done a dis-service to if we push them to "join." What are we saying? That being a part of something is merely a matter of having your name on the paper? Ultimately that's a waste of everyone's time and resources and doesn't do a darn thing for the boy. Lisa'bob

What I've noticed is that the commitment issue works both ways sometimes. In units where the leaders (whether we're talking youth or adult, or both) don't have their act together, the parents tend to be unwilling to commit to activities because they never really know whether the activities will take place as promised, or get canceled at the last minute. Which results in leaders who get frustrated and plan half-heartedly because they don't know who is really going to show up, if anybody, which in turn leads to parents who aren't really sure the activities will take place as announced, and back and forth we go. CNY I don't know if the above describes the units your sons are/have been in. Maybe not. But it also might be something to consider - what, other than laziness and plain old disregard for others, is keeping people from making the commitment you seek? And keep in mind that while all of us here are really into this "scouting thing," there are also a lot of parents out there who enroll their kids in the program but who really aren't that deep into it themselves and/or don't quite understand what we do or how we do it. Those folks, I find, need a gentle education (as opposed to a brow beating or guilt trip) and sometimes they get on board there after. Of course sometimes they never do, either.