Lisabob

Having mom randomly show up at camp outs on a regular basis is a little weird. I could see where she might be concerned if they were brand new and they wanted to be assured that the adults in charge were competent (not that I'd advocate swinging by unannounced as the best way to do this, but I'd be more patient in terms of my response to such behavior) but it has been almost a year now and she's still doing it?? Yup, time for some gentle re-direction of her free time and energy - or as Beavah suggests, more backpacking. And yes, I agree w/ Beavah that many of the people in key positions are and ought to be focused on the boys - not the parents. This is why, though, I've advocated that troops have a designated committee member (somebody really good who knows the program well, has good people skills, and works well with the SM/CC - not someone likely to undermine your key program leaders) whose job it is to help new parents understand the program. This might be the CC but it could be part of your webelos-scout transition team too. That frees up the SM to be working with the kids with far less hassle, while also socializing the parents to your program so that they get "on board" more quickly. Tends to reduce communication problems too. Lisa'bob

Have any of you ever done this? We have a couple of scouts coming up for advancement that I personally would have a very hard time agreeing to advance, based on their behavior over the last few months (both toward other younger/smaller boys and issues regarding honesty, responsibility, leadership). This is for ranks beyond 1st Cl. Since they're up for a BOR the SM obviously signed off on the scout spirit and POR requirements. Maybe he knows some things I don't about the boys and their personal growth? But I admit I don't see it. Maybe I would if I sat on their BOR and talked with them about it, but I'm not so sure. What's the more honorable course of action here - bow out and allow others to (probably) promote him at the BOR, or sit on the BOR with as open a mind as possible, but also raise these concerns with the other BOR members? Is it appropriate to ask the SM to share with the BOR - with or without the scouts present - his reasons for putting these boys up for promotion at this time? Please understand, I'm not "out to get" anybody and don't particularly want to set up a confrontation w/ the SM over advancement. But I would appreciate your feedback on this because I'm uncomfortable with all options that I see. Lisa'bob

I used to coordinate an "olympics" week for a camp where I worked, and my son's troop also holds an olympics-themed camp out for webelos every year. In both cases, it seems as though having at least a few events where speed and strength are not the only determinants of success can go a long way toward encouraging participation and camaraderie. Think of events where being small might be an advantage (agility or obstacle courses), where the emphasis is on teamwork or creativity rather than individual strength, and have a couple of just plain goofy events too, and everybody should be happier. Of course this doesn't mean get rid of the physical skills - just have a wider mix of activities. Lisa'bob

My son's troop does not collect regular dues - they collect annual troop membership fee. I suppose it is to minimize the hassle of dealing w/ small amounts of cash on a constant basis. (Though I do understand the purpose of collecting regular dues from the boys - but there is an issue for another day, in our case.) Patrol scribes in his troop do collect payments and permission slips for upcoming campouts, etc.. They're supposed to turn them over to the troop scribe who gives them to the treasurer. In practice what I've seen is that the patrol leaders tend to do this rather than the patrol scribe. Perhaps an issue of patrol leader training (delegation being an un-natural concept to many people) that could be addressed at the next Troop Leader Training? Lisa'bob

I'm in agreement w/ Fgoodwin re: when a boy may begin working on the webelos achievements. (ie, not while he is still a bear/in 3rd grade). I'm not in agreement w/ Long Haul. Yes, a boy can and should be working on webelos advancement if he wants to, over the summer after 3rd grade. But if the den doesn't meet at all over the summer and/or the den meets but the boy doesn't attend, then he hasn't been "active in his den" during that time - he's been active by himself and that's different. To my mind, being an active member of the den means you have to attend den functions at least some of the time. You can earn all the pins you want by yourself but until you attend some den functions, you couldn't fulfill teh 2nd requirement for the webelos badge in my book. Lisa'bob

"Ask the mother is she'd like a little "shut up" to go with the whine. " Wow is that rude. I'm sorry uz2bnowl but I'd be REALLY offended if that were the kind of response I got from my son's troop leaders. And, as I AM one of the adult leaders in my son's troop, I'd also be extremely embarrassed if any other leader responded to a parent that way. To the point of questioning if that other leader had the right temperment to hold his or her position any longer. I seem to remember something about "helpful, friendly, courteous, kind..." being an important part of scouting. Look, the mom in question is out of line, no question. But rather than get defensive and rude, one needs to consider that she might not see the program the same way we do, and it is part of our job to work WITH the other parents to help them understand what's going on and why. With a little patience, she might become one of the troop's most outspoken and helpful supporters. With the approach you advocate, yeah, she'll be gone and so will her boy, and I wouldn't blame her a bit.

To my mind, expecting a bunch of boys to watch other boys have fun all weekend without allowing them to participate is not a good plan and will quickly lead to boredom and frustration, not to mention 1,000x"how come WE can't do that too???". On the other hand, allowing scaled-back participation for webelos in a boy scout event (or running parallel programs and then letting them camp together in the evening) takes a great deal more planning to make it work smoothly, but it can be done. And maybe having some boy scouts come to a webelos-oriented event like a webelos-ree/webelos wood and do a demo could also be a good compromise, but I'd keep this feature short. 10 & 11 y.o. boys get antsy when asked to watch, not do. Lisa'bob

Yup, around here it is the Michigan-Michigan State game. Actually I found this to be more of a problem in cub scouts where (in all honesty) the chances of the schedule being set by a mom who just wasn't into sports was much higher. And then the dads (and their sons!) wouldn't attend of course. At least in the troop the BOYS are very likely to speak up if someone makes this kind of scheduling gaffe. Anyway I agree that mom might not have understood what's happening and that she's out of line to demand a rule on the matter. But I admit myself to having wondered (sometimes vocally) why things were happening the way they were and thinking this or that was a waste of time. And so I think you also need to be mindful about how you frame your response. Yes, boy-led is important and one of those mantras to which we all (rightly) bow. But you know what, some parent who hasn't been steeped in BSA training/practice isn't guaranteed to know or exactly care about "boy led" if what they perceive is "boy led = waste of boys' time." I know I felt that way for a while when "boy led" seemed to mean playing duck duck goose at troop meetings every week for lengthy periods of time (this was boy-unplanned, truth be told, and I think the SM was at fault as much as anyone for not providing more guidance to the PLC - which he eventually did after enough parents got annoyed.) But this wasn't what I'd signed him up for, what I'd paid for, or what I was spending a bunch of time driving him around for. And in that context throwing "boy led" out on the table sounded strangely like a defensive cop out on the adults' part. Please understand Baden, I'm not saying your troop failed to plan in the case you described - but rather, that it might take more than just repeating the boy-led mantra to get mom here on board. So a question or two: Is this boy part of your troop leadership? Is he new-ish to the troop? In the first case, a sit-down where you give the mom a reminder about "boy led" shouldn't be so hard. In the latter, I think you have to ask the mom what she wants her boy to get from scouting and make sure to frame your response (and the boy-led explanation) in terms that match, at least to a degree, with what she's seeking. That doesn't mean distorting the truth, just helping her see how the troop vision meshes with her own. And then maybe also do some education work so she begins to see scouting as more than just an activity her son is involved in (here's where the boy-led stuff fits nicely). By the way - sounds like a good campout and congrats on doing a nice service project too. Lisa

Yup, around here it is the Michigan-Michigan State game. Actually I found this to be more of a problem in cub scouts where (in all honesty) the chances of the schedule being set by a mom who just wasn't into sports was much higher. And then the dads (and their sons!) wouldn't attend of course. At least in the troop the BOYS are very likely to speak up if someone makes this kind of scheduling gaffe. Anyway I agree that mom might not have understood what's happening and that she's out of line to demand a rule on the matter. But I admit myself to having wondered (sometimes vocally) why things were happening the way they were and thinking this or that was a waste of time. And so I think you also need to be mindful about how you frame your response. Yes, boy-led is important and one of those mantras to which we all (rightly) bow. But you know what, some parent who hasn't been steeped in BSA training/practice isn't guaranteed to know or exactly care about "boy led" if what they perceive is "boy led = waste of boys' time." I know I felt that way for a while when "boy led" seemed to mean playing duck duck goose at troop meetings every week for lengthy periods of time (this was boy-unplanned, truth be told, and I think the SM was at fault as much as anyone for not providing more guidance to the PLC - which he eventually did after enough parents got annoyed.) But this wasn't what I'd signed him up for, what I'd paid for, or what I was spending a bunch of time driving him around for. And in that context throwing "boy led" out on the table sounded strangely like a defensive cop out on the adults' part. Please understand Baden, I'm not saying your troop failed to plan in the case you described - but rather, that it might take more than just repeating the boy-led mantra to get mom here on board. So a question or two: Is this boy part of your troop leadership? Is he new-ish to the troop? In the first case, a sit-down where you give the mom a reminder about "boy led" shouldn't be so hard. In the latter, I think you have to ask the mom what she wants her boy to get from scouting and make sure to frame your response (and the boy-led explanation) in terms that match, at least to a degree, with what she's seeking. That doesn't mean distorting the truth, just helping her see how the troop vision meshes with her own. And then maybe also do some education work so she begins to see scouting as more than just an activity her son is involved in (here's where the boy-led stuff fits nicely). By the way - sounds like a good campout and congrats on doing a nice service project too. Lisa

Hi Linux, Actually that's not a bad idea, pretty common sense. But do be careful with how you word it because (as you probably know) even with good intentions, you can't change the requirements for awards. THat means that if the requirement allows for the repetition of an elective to count, then you can't decide that it won't count or that it won't count right now but will later. Nothing to say you can't "suggest" that boys try to avoid repetition though! You just can't technically enforce such a policy. Anyway this probably won't be that big an issue. Most parents, once you explain that the whole point is to share experiences and not just keep a score card, will back off of the "oh Johnny did requirement #4 89 times last week!" business. Have fun, Lisa'bob

Even if he were eligible, I'd counsel caution. We had this situation in our mixed webelos I/II den (mixed den was a matter of necessity, not choice, but younger brother would've been around anyway - Mom insisted on bringing him to everything the older brother was doing). The younger brother was/is EXTREMELY competitive with his older brother, and "mom" was pushing hard for a dual cross-over all the way to make her schedule easier. Personally I was really glad that he COULD NOT cross over together with his older brother. They both benefitted from doing their own program without having the other there for a year. Some parents do not seem to understand that the program is set up as is for a reason. So just because it might be more convenient for them to have both boys move in tandem doesn't mean it is a good idea, program-wise or for their personal development. Lisa'bob

By the way I'd be all for them adding that everybody has to take some sort of hands on outdoor skills training first. But then you have to have something appropriate for everybody. OLS is great, don't get me wrong. Webelos Outdoor Leader Training is also fine. But what do you tell those wolf den leaders who need something appropriate for them? Sending them to a program that is focused on boys years older than the ones they are working with won't do. BALOO isn't it either- it is mostly administrative in nature (though I think all cub leaders should be required to take it too). Lisa'bob

gwd, it isn't that you need "more" for the purposes of WB. Rather, the standard for WB is that you must be "fully trained" for whatever your scouting position is, and SM/ASM requires more to be considered fully trained. Hope that makes sense. Lisa'bob

Here's one of my favorite sources for all things Cub-related, the Virtual Cub Scout Leader's Handbook. http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/ If you click on the "New Academic and Sports Program" then you can pull up beltloops/pins and the requirements. Personally I find that a much handier method than expecting parents to buy the academic& sports program guide. (I'd much rather they spend their $15 on a piece of their son's uniform) Just a quick clarification. JeffD, beltloops CAN be earned more than once during a cub's career. In fact, there are several loops that fulfill partial requirements for the webelos program a few years down the road. And in the webelos book whenever one of those beltloops is discussed it says something like: If you've already earned the ____ beltloop that's great! But you'll have to earn it again WHILE YOU ARE A WEBELOS SCOUT in order for it to count toward webelos advancement. Many packs do have a policy where they'll only pay for the loop one time (no matter how many times you earn it), and that makes some sense. Besides which, by the time they're webelos, the boys are usually ok with not being presented with a duplicate loop since they are earning other awards instead. Lisa'bob

Nope, I don't know of any groups who have done that. I do know a few who have decided NOT to sell a particularly low-demand type, like the popping kernals. The thinking was that you have to order a whole case but will probably only sell a can or two, and around here units cannot return unsold product to council. So the unit ends up eating the cost of the unsold portion of the case. But I don't think I'd limit to just one variety. Lisa'bob

Thank you Eamonn for your common-sense approach to things. And Kudu - it has been a while. Welcome back.

Glad to have you here, fox. From your descriptions it sounds ike your group is stuck in that "storming" stage. Getting beyond that can be tough sometimes, particularly if everyone in the group isn't committed to the same vision of where you (the troop) are headed. Take a minute though and look at your own role in this too. Are you trying to lead by decree? Do you need to take a step back and let the committee function? Do committee members have reason to feel (whether right or wrong) that your attitude is more of a "I built this troop and it is mine!" than "I helped get this troop turned around and now we need to work together to move it forward"? Having helped resuscitate a pack myself, (yeah, I know, not quite the same dynamic as a troop but also not that different) I know that there were times in the rebuilding process when it was really hard for me to step back and let other people - who I myself had recruited - do things in ways that I would not have. Sometimes I had to really bite my tongue. Hard. Occasionally I wasn't quick enough to bite down and ended up irritating/alienating people who I actually needed on my side, in the bigger picture. Luckily I had a couple of mentors who were happy to remind me when I needed it, that it isn't/wasn't "my" pack. And to think otherwise was going to be counter-productive for everybody in the long run. Do you have a mentor (maybe from your WB days, maybe your UC, maybe just a friend) who can observe, offer suggestions for bringing around those committee members to a shared vision, and help you correct course when needed? Lots of people here will be happy to offer input but of course we can't see you and your troop committee in action. Lisa'bob

I'm in agreement that strong-arm tactics like this are a bit ridiculous. Let's add that it is not the UC who gets to decide whether or not your unit money earning applications for other fundraisers will be approved and he/she is probably just bluffing with this threat (which makes me think they need some more UC training). That said, if the stuff really does hit the fan, there's always the option of saying fine, we'll sell popcorn. And then ordering ONE case. Grrr. Lisa'bob

Well I guess nobody's been to Pamlico Sea Base so how about Camp Bonner? Both are part of the East Carolina Council. I'd appreciate any feedback or observations about either one of them. Thanks. Lisa'bob

Scoutmom, I notice you are in Lansing. Let me recommend that you check out the various councils in your area besides your own. Great Sauk Trail (Livingston/Washtenaw and a smidgen of some other counties) holds their University of Scouting on Nov 4th. I know they have some outdoor skills - oriented offerings available. Tall Pines Council (Genesee County and parts north) and Clinton Valley Council (Oakland, Macomb) also have University of Scouting coming up. All of these are good resources if you aren't particularly happy with your own council's offerings. Here are some links to the above council homepages: Great Sauk Trail: http://www.gstcbsa.org/newsite/ Tall Pines Council: http://www.gfn.org/tpc/index.html Clinton Valley Council: http://www.cvc-bsa.org/ Lisa'bob

Jeff, I guess I'd have a friendly conversation with this parent. It could well be that the boy really has done all of these things in the past. But one of the major points of cubbing is to give families a structure within which to do things together. It is not about getting as many awards as one can. It is about experiences. By expecting that his boy will "get" all of these awards right off the bat, based on things he has done prior to joining cub scouts, the parent is effectively cheating himself and his son out of that shared experience. (I'm not sure I'd use the word "cheating" right off the bat w/ the parent - but that's what it comes down to in the end.) Try to get this guy re-focused on the purpose of the program rather than the tangible awards now, and you - he - and his son will all have a more enjoyable time going forward. Good luck. Lisa'bob

I don't know about all of you but the only time this became an issue for us was when we had a couple of over-zealous and ultra-competitive parents who wanted their boys to be "first" in everything, including first to get (never mind "earn") the webelos badge. Sheesh. If that's the case for you, have a friendly conversation with those parents NOW and hopefully spare yourself further grief down the road. But generally I'd be inclined to say that if the boys were active scouts during the summer then the clock should start earlier than later. On the other hand if they haven't been seen since school let out or you had no den or pack meetings of any sort for them to participate in, then start the clock with your first meeting of this school year. Either way they should be able to earn their webelos badges this fall if they so desire. Lisa'bob

Eamonn says of his son "But he never wears a Scouting T-shirt to school. [...]So I can't help thinking that if the coolest person on the planet were to design a Scout shirt that looked in any way like a Scout shirt he wouldn't wear it to school." Funny thing. My son was the same way for a while. The first half of 6th grade was the worst. He wouldn't be caught dead in public in his uniform. He literally hid - under a blanket - in the back seat of the car on the way to and from meetings so that no one would see him in uniform. Heaven help us if I decided to stop at the grocery store on our way home. I bit my tongue (hard) and waited. Then about late April last spring he did a 180 degree turn. Since then he has been known to wear his - and my (!) - scout-related T shirts all kinds of places, including to school. What happened here? Well he finally started having a really good time. The troop participated in what my son labeled "the coolest ever" activities in the spring and summer and after that he didn't seem to mind being publicly associated with scouts. Now, he'd probably still never wear the uniform shirt for a bunch of reasons that have more to do with fit and style than with what the uniform stands for. And I guess he might change his mind again down the road. But for now, his whole image of scouting has changed because it became too much fun to deny. That right there is how we "save" scouting in my mind. Lisa'bob

Does anybody here have any experience with Pamlico Sea Base's sea kayaking trek or sailing school programs? (East Carolina Council) If so I'd appreciate any comments or observations you can share. Thanks. Lisa'bob

If you think that the troop meeting(s) will be fun and age-appropriate for your boys then I'd say go for it. But keep the main focus on your own den meetings and activities this year. You don't want them to see your own den and pack meetings as just marking time until they can be "real" scouts or anything like that. Another thing you might think about is working with the troop (through the den chief) to help gradually step up the level of participation your boys have when they attend troop activities. Maybe at first they're primarily guests/observers but by the middle of 5th grade they're a lot more hands on. Lisa