Lisabob

Nope, no deadlines. We just had a boy who began the mammal study MB when he was a new scout, 11 years old, and finished it at camp this summer about a month shy of his 18th birthday. If the requirements change then the boy has an option of completing the badge under the requirements he started with, or of switching to the new requirements. In the latter case, this really takes a little work sometimes to figure out how what he already did may, or may not, coincide with the new requirements. But sometimes those changes are very minor too. About the only sticking point might be that a boy could end up working with more than one counselor. Some counselors take the view that they want to make sure the boy actually understands the material he did in the past, esp. if a lot of time has gone by. In some cases this makes a lot of sense if the unfinished requirements build upon skills developed in other (previously completed) requirements. In the interim those skills might have deteriorated, making it hard or impossible to complete the remaining items. So there is a grey area there for figuring out how to handle sign-offs. Some counselors might ask a scout if he'd like an opportunity to "refresh" himself on those skills, for example. But generally, once it is signed, it is done and scouts can't be required to re-do it. At the same time, if the un-finished portion isn't done to the satisfaction of the MB counselor (and within the rules of the requirements) then there's nothing stating that the MB Counselor must sign for those portions of the MB either. Hope that helps. The third paragraph is where the debates usually take place but I *think* the first two points are pretty standard. Lisa'bob

Political persuasions aside, this raises a couple of questions in my mind. 1. What would your current CO think about this? If you suspect they'd be unhappy and see this as another group usurping their position then that's a problem. One sure sign: would you (someone) make this an open arrangement, or is this done quietly without clearly telling your CO? If the latter, I'd be uncomfortable with that. 2. How are you going to ensure that the eligible scouts join? Personally I'm uncomfortable with anything that looks like coercion, even if it comes nicely wrapped with "goodies" like a better meeting place. If you are expected to "deliver" members in exchange for their support then you place yourself in a position of needing to deliver. What if there are eligible scouts who aren't interested? Yes, the organization will pay the membership fees. But then you are also supporting "ghost" members - people who exist as members on paper only. And I find that a bit troublesome. (Think of the problems it has caused w/ regard to BSA to have "ghost" units...) 3. You mention right off the bat that there is a political aspect here. Is that what's motivating this offer? If so, and regardless of which political agenda we're talking about, are you comfortable with that? Would this result in a situation where your troop might be perceived as being under the influence of a particular ideologically motivated group? Bad business there. 4. If you were to leave your "transitional" neighborhood and hold meetings elsewhere, would you be perceived as abandoning boys in that neighborhood? In particular, does your current CO exist in part to serve that neighborhood? If so then this might be a reason to decline the offer. I think it comes down to question of whom you (and your CO) serve and whether forming this relationship with this outside group would adversely affect your attempts to serve the target population. Lisa'bob

Our DE sometimes wears the uniform and sometimes wears a scout-related shirt (but not the uniform shirt). In the latter case he often is wearing pants or jeans, not scout pants. But yes, I agree, a DE of all people should either be in uniform or not be, but shouldn't be taking the half/half approach. Still...if he is otherwise doing a good job then this is not something I'd make a huge stink over. Lisa'bob

Ah, you guys are all wonderful. A couple of you asked about our destination. The troop is going to summer camp at Camp Bonner & Pamlico Sea Base in Washington, NC (East Carolina Council). Pamlico is one of the newest BSA high adventure-designated locations and offers a sailing school and a week-long sea kayaking trek in the Pamlico Sound for older scouts. Bonner is a traditional BSA camp. SSScout, as a matter of fact it looks like we'll be on the "inner banks" just a little way from Hatteras! Lisa'bob

Our troop is planning a lengthy trip next summer and I have a few questions. Any input and feedback would be great. 1. I've heard several variations on the driving rules, including that one driver can't drive more than 8 hours a day, that the entire troop can't travel more than 8 hours a day, alternately that either of the above is 10 hours/day, or that it is 500 miles/day. Can someone point me to a source where I can find the right answer? 2. No matter how we slice it, this is a two day drive. Any preferences on driving half-way vs. driving something more like 2/3 or 3/4 of the way on day one? We don't need to be at our destination until the morning of day THREE. But I've never planned to travel with 40-50 boys before so maybe one of the above is better than the other. 3. We're looking for things to do along the way, either for one or two afternoons/evenings. We'll be traveling to NC from the midwest, passing near Pittsburgh (about 1/2 way), Baltimore, Wash DC, and Norfolk VA. Beyond the obvious (visit the capitol!), any thoughts on easy, exciting side trips/activities? Also any thoughts on who makes this choice (does the committee choose? the PLC? both? Can the committee define the options for the PLC to choose from?) 4. How would you feel about taking your troop to an amusement or water park on the way? Good/bad/ugly? We're a big group with a lot of young scouts and there are some reservations about safety and about losing track of people at such a place. Are these well founded, in your view? 5. If you've done trips like this with your troop in the past, what have you done for accomodations while traveling? Does anybody seek out local troops to camp with? For that matter, do you camp? Do you stay in the cheapest motel you can find? 6. About gas milage...how do you handle this? Have everybody pay a flat fee? Reimburse drivers for actual milage? If you were planning for a trip 8-10 months from now, would you pick a target gas price (say $3/gallon) and build that into the cost of the trip up front? Or would you add a fuel charge down the road when you had a better idea of what gas might cost in reality? Thanks many times over for any input. I've been accused of being a little, shall we say, concrete sequential from time to time, but I want to turn this over and consider as many sides of it as possible well in advance to avoid nasty last-minute problems. Lisa'bob

Are there other troops in your area to move to? Do the other troops have a solid program? If the troop leaders in your son's present troop don't respond very quickly and if your son doesn't see a change on the ground very quickly, I'd ask him whether he wants to move. You've given it 9 months and it sounds like you've brought this to the attention of the troop before, and things were not resolved. Changing troop culture is an uphill battle, and while there are good reasons to stick it out in some cases too, if your son is persistently suffering then you have to do what's right for him first. One side note, if your son does decide to move troops, I'd encourage you to have a short, honest, and polite conversation with the committee chair of your son's present troop to let him know why. I've seen it happen several times that people leave the program because of a problem, but if the leaders in charge don't know/aren't told, then they can assume there's not a serious problem and it doesn't get addressed. Lisa'bob

I agree that the communication aspect of this is rather challenging. If there were only one consistent answer AND EVERYBODY GAVE IT, it sure would go a long way toward fixing the problem. The problem I've seen over the years is that, while there is actually a "right" answer, you get 17 different answers on the way to the right one. And half the time the people giving the answers are so far removed from cubbing that they have no idea and come up w/ wildly inaccurate "information" for Webelos leaders in the process. Very frustrating. OK I'm done ranting about poor communication and misinformation. Here is my understanding. I suppose someone will quibble with it too. You can't camp with webelos at a Boy Scout camporee. Webelos & their parent/adult CAN camp with a troop on other occasions (like troop camp outs) but only for ONE night, not two. If troops aren't inviting you, or if they argue that you "aren't allowed" to camp (I heard that one several times as a Webelos DL!), or if you don't know how to track down troop contacts, then call one of the following people and start requesting help: your unit commissioner (if you have one), your district membership chair (who should also have some folks working on webelos-scout transition program in your district), or your district executive if need be. Lisa'bob

Our public library does this too and it is their only/main fundraiser. Don't want to irritate them! Lisa'bob

One of the things I'd want to know is, would it matter if the priest met this person? He turned the application down because he doesn't know the person? Or because the person isn't a church member? These are separate issues and the first is obviously much easier to fix (arrange a meeting!) than the second. Beyond that, if the priest is hung up on selecting only church members, which is within the rights of the CO, then he also bears a much deeper responsibility to help you find appropriate leaders. In other words, he can't realistically exercise a veto only and expect this situation to work. If he wants to be actively involved then he'd better do so pro-actively as well. And a couple of other thoughts: - is this church big enough to support a pack that is members-only? - does the church actively promote the pack through its other activities (religious education, outreach, church-affiliated school, in the church bulletin or during announcements at mass, etc.)? If not, are they willing to do so? - is the priest requiring that existing leaders who aren't church members be removed too? Or are they "grandfathered" in and it is just potential new leaders that the priest is veto'ing?

Hi Carole, In our pack, we always had a membership chair, who was generally also the round-up chair. It was that person's job to do the paper chase regarding new scout applications. In our pack that person also was in charge of re-chartering since they had all of the membership info. But I know some packs have their committee chair do the rechartering. As for dues, we had a treasurer who would send out notes to parents who hadn't yet paid. That was usually effective enough. Beyond what's in the cub scout leader handbook regarding committees, I don't think there are (or need to be) rule books for membership and advancement chairs. It does help to be organized and keep good records for both positions of course. Are you looking for ideas for addressing a specific situation or concern? Maybe if you give a bit of detail people can offer you some suggestions. As for packmaster - we didn't use it so I can't answer that one, sorry. However, my son's troop uses troopmaster. Our membership person has control over the "master" version of troopmaster and the advancement person sends her emails with updates as needed. Most of the time it seems to work ok. best, Lisa'bob

Give him a specific job to do, one that does not require direct interaction with the boys. Something useful but thoroughly behind the scene. Lisa

Not to get side-tracked, but do note that the requirement says a Court of Honor OR a campfire. I've noticed too that most boys choose the campfire option and would like to see more of them work on the CoH instead (maybe the CoH's would be less boring if the boys were involved in running them...). But they do have the choice. At any rate, there is info in the MB book on how to plan and run each of these. Lisa'bob

One place you might want to encourage the boys to look is the communications MB book. Planning and MC'ing a court of honor is one of the options for requirement #8. I don't have the book handy but I am pretty sure there's a section in there on how to schedule, plan, and run such an event. Now if only I could convince our Advancement chair that the boys ought to be doing this! (a thread for another day) Lisa'bob

OK I mean this in the most open-minded spirit of curiousity and discovery. (So don't go blasting me for asking this...) Sea Scouting aside, which clearly has a different focus, I'd like to know what are some of the things those of you involved with crews have done, that a troop COULD NOT do with their older scouts in the "high adventure" mode. I mean in terms of activities - not membership. Is there really a difference in the nature of the activities? Or is it only the frequency of those "high adventure" activities? Or is it just that the activities are more or less the same but with a crew you can skip some or all of the hoopla of weekly troop meetings? I admit I'm not as well educated about Crews as I might like to be. But when I hear about venturing what I tend to hear is that a) they can have girls and older youth as members and b) they have a much broader potential focus. (Occasionally someone throws in some info about the different awards that may be earned) But this doesn't tell me what crews DO, that makes them truly different from troops. I suspect the same is true of a lot of ASMs/SMs who appear to be resistant to the program, particularly as it applies to troop-aged boys. Lisa'bob

GNX is right that you don't need OWL to get the trained badge. But I'd encourage you to do it anyway if possible because it'll help you identify more resources and ideas for teaching those outdoor webelos pins. Plus it is a fun course. (And while you're at it...sign up for BALOO too - since you have to have someone w/ BALOO training at all pack campouts it can't hurt to have a bunch of BALOO people in the pack. Plus it will be useful when you are planning den campouts.) Have fun, Lisa'bob

Thanks folks. I was just envisioning the wrong stuff. I had in mind big thick sweat-shirt-y type of fleece, not those pajama-y sorts of pants. You can imagine the image in my mind was pretty silly. Lisa'bob

Please forgive what I'm sure is a clue-less question. But I'm curious and who better to ask than you guys? When you ask about putting fleece pants on under the new scout pants...what sort of fleece pants are these? I'm envisioning something thick-ish kind of like sweat pants and in that case you'd need really large scout pants over top and you'd look like the stay-puff marshmallow man (which doesn't sound very comfortable either). That can't be it. Help me out here.

"The new zipoff pants are really neat, but the sizing is really odd. They seem to be made for kids that are tall and slim. The fit in the hips is too tight with relation to the fit in the waist, and the length seems just too long with relation to the waist. " Yippee! Maybe they'll actually fit my bean-pole 12 year old son then. That's one of several things I did NOT like about the other scout pants. I always have to take gigantic tucks in them to get them anywhere near fitting his waist. just goes to show you can't please everybody, all the time. Lisa

I agree w/ Venividi regarding advancement. That's probably not going to be the primary motivation for a boy who is joining for the first time at 16 1/2. Sure, he can advance and nobody should discourage him, but I doubt that'll hook him on the program. It's the experiences that he will probably want to find out about. What fun things does the troop do that he doesn't/can't already do on his own? And by the way, there are troops with good older boy programs out there. My son's troop right now has 19 boys (50% of the troop) age 14+ and about 7 or 8 of those are 16-17. About 1/3 of our 18-20 year olds stay on as ASMs too, and many more come back for visits when they're on college break or home from military service. Must be something fun about the program... And no SM in their right mind would put a 16 1/2 year old new scout into a patrol with all 10-12 year olds. (At least I hope not!) Even those troops with "new scout" patrols, which are typically young boys, are likely to see the need for a little flexibility in terms of patrol membership in this case. So it would be worth asking about what type of patrol he'd be put in, but this wouldn't be a major worry to me. Lisa

I don't think I am a G2SS goon. I agree people can get carried away with it sometimes, to the detriment of all. I love to be silly with the kids. My alter ego "goofy camp counselor" emerges from time to time. But I do have concerns sometimes about what would be "horesplay" if it were just the adults. Case in point. There are a couple of boys in my son's troop who are physically big and strong for their age. Heck, one of them at age 14 is larger than many of the adults, and the other one probably will be as he gets a little older. These two boys lack maturity or responsibility though. They don't know where the boundaries are. It is utterly predictable, and I have seen it. If some adult were to start playing "dunk" or tossing the kids in the pool it would be one thing because the adult probably has an inner sensor telling him/her where to stop, where the line is. But next thing you know, one or both of these boys will be doing the same thing and they DO NOT have that inner sensor (or it isn't tuned to the same station). And that's when things go wrong.

Aidan, thinking about your presentation to your RT group in Oct, here are a few things that I (as an audience member) might want to know: 1. What, exactly, do your crews do? Give some specific examples of the focus and events that some crews in your area have. Don't feed me the "crews can do pretty much anything" line because that won't sell me on the value of the program. 2. Give examples of things that crews in your area can (and DO) do, that troops could not. And not just, "they can have girls as members." Substantive examples. Yeah, we can take our older boys sea kayaking, hiking, (insert high adventure activity of choice here), etc. within the troop structure if that's what they want. So what do we need a crew for? Eamonn said something along the lines of "crews are not big Boy Scouts just like Boy scouts are not big Cub Scouts." Ok then, what's the difference? Spell it out for them. 3. Do crews pursue the same basic aims as boy scout troops (fitness, character, citizenship)? If so, how does whatever they're doing in #1 and #2 link to that? If not, how do the aims of venturing mesh with the "aims of scouting" that most boy scout leaders are familiar with? 4. Provide information, if you can get it, on how many boys "aged out" of troops in your district last year. Point out that these boys are missing out on opportunities to continue to learn and grow in the scouting program as crew members. What troop leader could begrudge you boys that can no longer be members of the troop program? 5. Provide contact info for whoever is in charge of recruitment/membership for crews in your district - by crew, not some district membership person who may not know anything about crews in reality. If people wanted to join or encourage their existing members to check it out, how WOULD they contact these crews? Info needs to be readily available. 6. Depending on what kind of discussion you hope to have with the adults present, consider inviting some current crew members to help you with your presentation. It is harder to deny the enthusiasm of youth members. On the other hand if you want to air the complaints/misconceptions that some leaders have and really talk about them, people will be less likely or comfortable doing that in the presence of youth members (which might be to your advantage in terms of framing the conversation, I don't know). 7. If there are cub leaders at your RT please provide them with a reason to care about crews other than "in 10 years your boys might be interested." I used to HATE going to RT to be told stuff that wasn't relevant to pack leaders. You might mention that there are crews in your area who would be happy to come to a pack or den meeting to share something with the cubs (if this is true), along the lines of what Eamonn mentioned his ship doing. The above all assumes that crews also see themselves as an integrated part of the scouting program, which I think is a sticking point for some skeptical leaders. You asked "how do you think a V.C. fits into the scouting program?" I think it is important to articulate the response from the perspective of the venture program too. Good luck and let us know how things go. Lisa'bob

Aidan, I have heard in the past that there was confusion at the district/council level about what kinds of events troops and crews could participate in together. I don't think that's the main issue any more though. I know that crews are "allowed" to participate in things like camporees, etc.. What I don't know is whether, or how, they are encourage to attend. What I mean is, boy scout troops get blitzed w/ info about these events. I don't know if the same is true of crews, or if they're an afterthought - if they show, great, if not, oh well sort of attitude? I do think the crews are viewed by some adults as being a labor source to work at district events doing basic tasks(this is where I hear adults mention crews most often, as in "maybe we can get some venturers to do..."). In this regard I think it highlights a bit of confusion that remains over who or what the crews are about. But there are more boys in my son's troop than there were registered venture crew members in the whole district last year. In fact we've had more boys "age out" of the troop in the last year than most of the venture crews have around here as members. And not one of them has joined a crew, or as far as I'm aware, been recruited to do so. So it also may be a matter of size. Along those lines I've heard some philosophical discussions about troop leaders who fear that crews might "steal" youth members, but it hasn't been a big deal in reality because the crews are so very small. Here's one thing I have wondered in the past. Maybe we need to look at starting crews on college campuses as extra-curricular clubs rather than starting crews in the places that traditionally have chartered packs and troops? I can't tell you how many of my students come to college as "former" scouts and would probably welcome an opportunity to stay active if the structure were in place. I realize that on public U campuses like the one where I teach we'd have to figure out how to charter such a creation (ie, not by the university itself, just like public k-12 schools don't charter units much any more). But I am confident it could be done. Lisa

I first learned that venture crews existed when I took NLE and den leader training with cubs. THere were a couple of people in green shirts and being the curious and slightly nosy person I am, of course I asked them who they were. There was mention of the program in our NLE presentation but as I recall it got into about as much detail as the Varsity program - which is to say, next to none. Beyond that, I think it is safe to say that in my area at least, the venture program is not something that cub leaders are at all familiar with. Currently I'm a troop committee member and I help out with some of our district membership stuff. I'm sorry to say I don't see much of the venture program in action in our district. There are a few crews in existance but there doesn't seem to be any interaction across unit lines and almost all of the crews have membership in the single digits. The only time I tend to see venture crews at scouting functions is when they are doing some kind of service (serving food or set-up/clean-up activities). Further, my general impression of crews to the extent that I've gotten into conversations with a few people about their crews has been that they tend to be idiosyncratic and personality-driven. So when the small group that started them goes off to college or ages out, they die off. I have wondered sometimes whether the very open-ness of the program is part of the cause of this problem. This is all clearly not true of most of the crews and ships people on this board have written about. I've learned a good deal more about the program on this board as a result and I'm in awe of the things many of you do with your crews and ships. And I would love to see a strong venture crew program develop here too. I just haven't yet.

Hey purce, for what it's worth, I found the whole experience kind of gelled sometime during the second weekend. Don't know how many others felt that way too? But I tend to agree w/ Beaver too - don't let the hype get in the way of enjoying the course on whatever level. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Thanks for all the input so far, it is helpful. I will seek out a friendly bit of input from the SM as several of you have suggested. Hopefully that'll go well - it isn't really my intent to second guess him but I admit I don't yet see whatever he might have seen to justify these advancements at this time. Maybe he'll be able to help me see that. Just to respond to some things a couple of people asked/mentioned: Scoutldr, there's no question of refusing to hold a BOR. We have a large and active committee so they could have a BOR without me, if I were to sit this one out. Ed asked about what kind of behavior and a couple of people said something to the effect that a boy shouldn't be punished at BOR for something that happened way back and has been dealt with already. Here's part of what makes me uncomfortable with these boys I guess. Their behavior is recent and well known among both scouts and adults, but the consequences (to the extent that there are or have been any) are not known. I am concerned that the message we'd send, both to the boys in question and to the rest of the troop, is that it doesn't matter how you behave, you get your advancement anyway. And I fear that any open and honest discussion about such would lead to a situation where I'd be the hold-out on the BOR, thus causing other problems. Still, I'm not sure what "remedy" I would propose either. Never been in this situation before as a potential BOR member and I want to really think it through before it happens. In one of the two cases in question, the behavior that I find troubling is on-going, low-level (just under the radar most of the time) bullying. Actually I find this more difficult to know how to respond to as a BOR member than in the other boy's case, where the behavior was more obvious and therefore more easily addressed. In this first case, the boy is big for his age and has a history of picking out younger/smaller victims. He's done it to lots of kids. My own included. I know that he has been spoken to about this several times but what appears to happen is he stops for a short period and then slowly ramps it up again until the next time he gets talked to. I'm not sure when the last time he was talked to was though. So I have reservations about his "scout spirit" in a big way. Also, his POR is as a den chief in a den where his dad is the DL/CM and his little brother is a cub scout. I know this "counts" but honestly I've not seen this boy provide any kind of leadership in the troop and I am a little skeptical about the nature of his leadership as den chief, given the circumstances. In fact he is often one of the boys in the troop who needs to be closely watched. He's not a boy the other scouts look up to - most of them avoid him. To go one step further, troop policy is that boys above 1st cl. rank can sign off on requirements (except SM conf. and scout spirit) for lower ranks. I'm downright queasy about handing him that responsibility and power. All of that said, he's a nice kid in many ways, has a good sense of humor, and I realize that teenage boys are works in progress (aren't we all). And maybe my expectations are off base? But I don't see him as a role model for the troop in any sense and I do expect the boys with higher ranks to begin to act as role models. So: bite my tongue and trust the SM (which would mean, for me, not sitting on these BORs because I couldn't bite my tongue hard enough if I was involved in the decision)? Or sit on the BORs with as open a mind as possible even though I'm skeptical at the moment? Lisa'bob