Lisabob

I too have heard that the $120 estimate comes from National. I've never met our current SE. He may be a fabulous guy. I do know our DE reasonably well and while we don't always agree on everything, he has always gone out of his way to help me, the units I've been associated with, and anybody else I've referred to him for assistance. He is at every event and meeting the district is involved with. I don't begrudge him his salary. In our area at least, district or council presenters typically do a reasonable job of pointing out that FOS supports (among other items) the council camps, one of which runs a highly popular 6-8 weeks worth of cub resident camp (catches the pack's eyes) and another of which is being refurbished to be used for more troop and crew events. These are worthy causes and it is reasonable to ask scout families to help support them, since scout families benefit directly from these camps. My concern is that when some unknown district person comes in to give the FOS spiel and they keep coming back to that really large donation of $115+ (and yes I do think that's a lot of money - good cause, etc, but still a lot of money) then if they're not careful about how they do it, they may turn off all those folks who would give in the $10-$25 range.

Well ok Oak, having made my point in as explicit manner as I could I wasn't going to respond but against my better judgment I just can't leave your last point alone. Are you suggesting that when someone is offended they should just clam up and not voice their opinion? How, then, would the person who has stepped across some line even know they'd done so? Or, assuming they know to begin with (and sometimes I believe they do - see below), why does that entitle them to voice THEIR view without the other side voicing their own? Yes, it does depend a bit whether the reader identifies more with one character in this joke than another. But they're ALL ridiculous to the point of being offensive. Moreover, as the BSA has become just a little more diverse by allowing women into the Scouter ranks and girls into V. crews, and as the military has done the same thing in terms of allowing women entre into a wider variety of positions over the last several decades, there is a growing potential for someone to be offended on all of these levels. As for voicing offense: When I was at WB training we had a session on diversity. It was a bit laughable in itself, given how it was presented, but what really steamed me was that not five minutes after the session several of the long-time (male) Scouters were sitting around telling jokes that could only be considered demeaning towards women (mainly having to do with women's physical attributes and what any "red blooded man" might do with said attributes). Perhaps this was their intentional protest to the whole notion of diversity training. But they simply could not understand why I (one of a small handfull of women in the course) wasn't willing to play along with these jokes. When I told them that I thought they (the jokes) were rude, crude, and offensive I got the same response there that minorities who are the butt of jokes often get elsewhere: "Aw come on, it was just a joke..." Well fine but then don't be surprised if I don't laugh. If it was "just a joke" then your repertoire of jokes needs expanding to include some that aren't offensive. If it was told intentionally to get a rise out of someone then that's no longer "just a joke" is it? By the way this same group of guys spent the last night of our last WB weekend sitting around the campfire, where we were supposed to be reveling in camaraderie or something to that effect, telling more jokes in which Catholics, women, gays, and other minorities in their world view were the targets. People asked them to cut it out and things got a little nasty. Words were exchanged among a few people who were deeply offended. It poisoned the whole atmosphere. My patrol left the scene but it was disgusting and really turned me off from wanting to associate with some of these people. If I hadn't had other really great experiences with other Scouters, who knows, I might've decided all BSA leaders were just a bunch of knuckle draggers. Which of course would be untrue too. My point: why perpetuate humor that has the potential to totally turn people off toward your organization and reinforce any negative stereotypes about your organization, especially when the "point" being made is a bogus point to begin with. Of course it is silly to say that teaching boy scouts to shoot rifles and shotguns and bb guns is going to turn them into killers. In fact it is so ridiculous that I have rarely (actually never, I think) heard anyone seriously make such an argument. And if someone were to make that argument I can think of better ways to refute this than with crude statements masquerading as humor. Sorry but I'm done with this thread. If people still want to say "it was just a joke" that's fine. Humor is, as you say Oak, subjective. Especially in an online community where there's no way to gauge others' responses except by the written word though, I did think it was entirely reasonable to register my views in the way I have done.

Regarding the legal issue, it may also depend a little on where you live, as state and local laws on these matters vary. But in some places, yes it is necessary. For example: we tried to get a person to cater our B&G banquet a few years ago. The first two or three people we approached wouldn't do it because the facilities available were not "up to code" for private caterers. This was a public school kitchen we were talking about, but local law is apparently different for private caterers. We ended up making it a pot luck and doing it ourselves (better idea anyway in my view). As for the return, again it depends, this time on how much popcorn you are able to sell vs. how many people you can get to attend your dinner. As I mentioned my son's troop is working on a spaghetti dinner. We're expecting to make less than $2000, based on past experience. On the other hand I know most years when my son was a cub and they sold popcorn, the pack made a good deal more than $2000.

I'm not sure whether this is just a local thing? But around here the district has all kinds of incentives/strings attached to having the district person do FOS presentations (rather than units doing their own). I suppose that's so they can ensure the "proper amount" - read - a fairly high amount - is solicited. But it might actually work better to handle it within the unit. I know many parents are going to react better to someone they see at every meeting than to some unknown district rep.

In the thread on "fair share" someone wrote that: "Our Council has been asking for FOS levels of $115 per family. Our distict says that the district can make its FOS numbers if 25% of members contribute $20. That will make FOS easier for families to swallow. " Makes me wonder. If your district can meet their goal by getting 25% of families to give $20 each, why on earth is council still banging away at $115? I'd think we'd get ten families to give $20 for every one that gives $115. In terms of "selling" FOS to scouting parents I just have never understood the logic of asking for a big chunk of change, which as we all know turns a whole bunch of people off (witness all the posts complaining - perhaps rightly, perhaps not - about FOS) when the response would be so much more positive if the pitch were for a smaller amount. For that matter - as I've noted elsewhere, the pack my son was in had a large percentage of families who were struggling to make ends meet. Yet the pitch we got was always focused on that $115-$125 range; even though there were usually asides about contributing whatever you could afford, the emphasis was on the larger donations. That just didn't fly with this group of people and on occasion came across as ridiculous or even a little insensitive. Do councils ever look at the socio-economic status of the various units when they plan out their FOS campaigns?

FWIW Fscouter, the CD from "my" woodbadge course required both "brass on brass" and the "gig line" thing whenever we had uniform inspections. Of course my general sense of this person was that he was more interested in wielding power than in leading anyway, as is often the case with those who get so caught up in the details that they lose sight of the larger picture. As for marching and drilling. A former SM in my son's troop really went all out on this one, marching drills at weekly troop meetings, etc.. Result: many boys left and joined another troop, many others just quit, and this former SM is no longer involved. His influence carries on among some of the older scouts who elected to stay though. They, in turn, have tried on occasion to instill this desire to be quasi-militaristic in the younger scouts. Largely unsuccessfully I might add. So my perception is that this militaristic business tends to take hold and get out of hand when one or both of the following circumstances are in play: 1) you have some adult leaders who really want to push this agenda 2) you have a large percentage of older boys who have either "survived" these drills and now feel it is time to inflict them on new scouts or who actually like doing drills - but this last, in my view, is probably quite rare.

I'm well aware of the point Ed. I am offended by: 1) the equation of women to prostitutes which I find demeaning. 2) the suggestion that our best military leaders can't figure out a way to make their point in a public forum such as this supposed news interview, without resorting to vulgar and demeaning analogies. 3) the suggestion that a professional journalist who is also a female would ask such stupid questions to start with. C'mon guys, we're not all bubble heads. Can you seriously tell me that the same joke would "work" or be re-told if the role of "journalist" were male? I just don't think so. And by the way if you listen to NPR you'll find that the quality of journalism is typically very high; they do not resort to these kinds of empty-headed questions such as one might find on certain other "info-tainment" news sources.

Yuck. Sorry to hear you are facing this situation. We recently went through something similar. If the blue cards have been signed by a registered MBC for that badge then my understanding is that you more or less have to give the boy the badge. However, I think it is up to the SM to have a long, serious talk with this boy about the scout oath and law, beginning with "A scout is trustworthy." There are of course also leadership and respect issues here. And I think the SM should be clear that he isn't about to sign off on the scout spirit requirement for quite some time, until this scout demonstrates that he understands and has learned (appropriate lessons) from this error in judgment. Maybe ask the scout to come up with some concrete ways in which both he and the SM might be able to determine when such a time has arrived. In my eyes this is one of those times where the SM has to "earn" his or her "pay" and actively guide this scout, even though it is unpleasant to do so. Be sure to keep your committee in the loop since they're the ones who have to sit on the BORs. This includes reporting any positive change that you may see in the scout. As a committee member myself, I really dislike being put in a situation where I know a scout has done something significantly wrong but I don't know if or how the situation has been resolved between the scout and SM, and yet I'm asked to make a decision about advancing the scout at a BOR.

If at the age of 15 he is willing to have that good long talk then that's a pretty hopeful sign. A truly disengaged boy wouldn't have bothered, or would've "upheld" his end of that talk with mono-syllabic harumphs. Hang in there with him.

Our SM does set some broad guidelines (no poptarts - breakfast has to be hot - must include a recognizable fruit or vegetable in at least one of Saturday's meals - they usually pick apples - etc.) I've noticed that when the SM doesn't do this then the boys will naturally fall back to hot dogs and poptarts. Or in the case of my son's patrol, they just don't bother to cook breakfast at all - "too much work" - which actually bugs me a lot since then they've wasted food that they bought and money too. Not to mention it is a lousy way to start the day. Occasionally the PLC determine that dutch oven or open fire cooking will be required at an upcoming campout. If you have more than one patrol, or maybe even within the patrol if it is large enough, maybe they would like to have a cook-off focusing on some particular type of dish. Name things "dorito pie" rather than "casserole." I admit my first reaction to anything "casserole" isn't generally positive either unless it is green bean casserole and we're talking about thanksgiving dinner. In March this year we have a woman coming to our first camp with all of our cross over scouts, specifically to teach them how to do some dutch oven cooking. She's affiliated with a local outdoor club and writes dutch oven cook books or something along those lines too. Maybe something like that would help. Of course you don't have to bring in an outsider but rather than just showing them, teach them step by step with them making the dish for themselves too. If they're interested of course. I'm not suggesting that you make this decision or arrangements for your troop but I do think it is within the SM's purview to offer suggestions like this to your SPL and PLC. As kids they have limited imaginations/experience when it comes to food so no reason you couldn't help them expand their realm of potential ideas a bit. Other thoughts: maybe the PLC will want to dedicate an upcoming campout to working on aspects of the cooking mb.

"what do you think would be good for dinner tonight?" translation: pick something you know how to make because it is your turn to cook.

Sorry guys, I don't find it that funny. The notion that any of our top military leaders (not to mention those who purport to teach our youth anything of importance) would be so disrespectful as to compare a woman to a prostitute based on the above made-up scenario is flat-out disrespectful to women and to our military leaders of either gender. I work with a lot of young men and women who are now, have been, or will soon be, serving on active duty. They come from a wide variety of backgrounds but one thing they all have in common is that they have learned respect for other people as part of their military training.

ScoutNut is correct that these types of fundraisers are a huge amount of work. My son's boy scout troop is planning to do a spaghetti dinner in March and work has already begun on all the requirements to get it together. We have a troop of between 30-40 boys, at least 1/3 of whom are old enough and experienced enough to really be of major help with such an event, and probably 15 active adult leaders plus a strong "troop alumni" group, several of who will likely turn out to help us cook. I can't imagine trying to pull this off with cubs more than once a year. Keep in mind that in a pack setting almost all of the work would fall on the adults. (Let's face it, even the most helpful Tiger cub won't be able to do much to help with such an event. Maybe your Webelos can be more involved but even there, there are serious limits to what they can do without adult help.) Keep in mind too that not everyone eats out. Where I live, about half of the families in my son's former pack were receiving free/reduced school lunches. These folks were not dining out once a month. Given that you cannot rely on just your troop for fundraisers, one key to a successful fundraiser of this sort (in my view) is to involve members of the community who are not already affiliated with the troop - meaning that you still have to sell tickets, by the way.

Boy someone really dropped the ball there (twice)! I agree with Scott. Find an organization in your town that charters a troop (think religious groups, Elks, American Legions, etc.). Ask them to put you in touch directly with their Scoutmaster or Committee Chair rather than going through the DE's office. There are probably lots of troops who would be more than happy to have you as part of their program. Don't let the DE keep it from happening.

Hi jblake, To respond to a couple of your point, the troop does have adult advisors for each patrol, though some are more hands off than others. The ASM who took some time to talk with my son is also the advisor for that patrol. The troop has troop guides but I don't think the position has been used very effectively. In part this has to do with the personalities of a couple of the guides and in part I think they haven't gotten much support or guidance from our SM. But that's another story. The troop has a functional SPL and two ASPLs. My perception, though, is that there is not as much interaction between these scouts and the PLs, or guidance offered either, as there could be. Again I think it goes back to the expectations and guidance offered by the SM, who tends to be very hands off in these matters. In the last month (since I originally posted this thread) I've seen some improvements in that my son has figured out that there are a couple of boys in his patrol who he can count on, and he is learning to use their support to help get things done. Also he's gotten some quiet encouragement from the one ASM/patrol advisor. So at least he isn't quitting his position. On the other hand, he has vowed never to run again for PL either - something I hope he'll eventually change his mind about, with a little added maturity (and maybe a new SM down the road). In the meantime, someone also suggested to him that next time the patrols hold elections, he ought to consider voting for his most vocal critic, the current APL, (who is none the less not very helpful) and let that boy discover how difficult the job can be. This seems to hold a certain appeal to my son!

How many boys are in this pack? In our pack of 25-35 boys we averaged between $5-$10k in popcorn sales in a given year. While on the lower end this made things a bit tight, on the higher end that was more than enough money to cover basic costs (awards, pwd cars, blue & gold budget and derby budget, rank books, and reduced cost or sometimes free outings/special activities including summer day camp). As a rule we did not provide uniforms although we tried to help parents locate sources to purchase or acquire uniforms at a low cost whenever possible. We also kept a small fund to help families in need with various scouting costs. So like nldscout, I would also want to know just how it is that your pack can't live on the profits from 11k in popcorn sales too. Maybe your budget needs re-alignment. To put another way, maybe the group's priorities for funding need re-alignment. As for justification for fund raisers, my experience is that practically anything passes muster. We routinely held a Christmas wreath sale and said we wanted the profit to pay for "unit expenses." Never got questions about what that meant (and in fact we did use the money in that manner - usually to pay for a couple of more expensive activities each year like a lock in at the local zoo, etc.). The bigger question about fund raisers is whether or not you will get sufficient participation from the families in your pack to make it worth while. Be careful not to burn them out un-necessarily, which seems to happen a lot these days. Keep in mind that you might only do one or two of these a year but their kids' schools, church groups, and every other extra curricular group is also probably doing fundraisers too. Before you try to "sell" a fundraiser make sure the parents all understand where your current funds are going and what would be paid for by yet another fundraiser.

Yes I am certain about the issue with "scamming" and mbs. This happened at camp over the summer while I was there and the boy freely boasted to adults and other scouts that he had convinced some camp staffers/MBCs to sign blue cards for two of the less exciting eagle-required MBs, even though he was not registered for, and had not worked on, the requirements toward those badges. Actually he appeared to be rather proud of having accomplished this. The committee and SM later discussed the matter and came to the conclusion that since the cards were signed by a registered MBC that the troop more or less had to honor the cards and award the MBs. However I believe the SM required this young man to demonstrate knowledge of the subject matter to him personally, prior to signing off on one or more of the requirements (spirit and SM conference - not sure if this pertained to one or both of those). Since the SM did eventually sign, I expect that means the boy satisfied the SM that he knew the material. I don't know though, as I have not heard that from the SM himself. (This speaks to some of the communication difficulties that arise sometimes between the SM and committee, where people who are in a position to sit on BORs do not always know if or how various disciplinary situations or "growth opportunities" have been handled.)

Thanks for your input so far. As I have gotten to know the program and the boys and other adults in the troop over the last two years, I admit that the BOR is something I've struggled with. To be honest, this scout is viewed by most of the adults as not being a very good example to others. Yet, he was chosen by his peers to hold an important position of responsibility. Thereafter there have been some honesty issues (scamming his way into a couple of signed blue cards at summer camp for eagle-required mbs he never worked on, for example) and some questions about sloppiness on the job too, although perhaps that can be attributed to the learning curve being fairly steep. And I admit I'm disappointed in the fact that the SM hasn't held up the bar a little higher on scout spirit and leadership and use of the adult association method to guide scouts. But that's a broader problem within the troop regarding how the SM is doing his job and it is neither my perception alone, nor something that is going to get "fixed" this month. As for the BOR itself, I've sat on a bunch of T-2-1 boards and four Eagle BORs in the last two years. The T-2-1 boards have been fairly perfunctory which I feel is appropriate. The Eagle boards have been pretty meaty affairs, again appropriate. I was taken by surprise that the board in this case resembled a T-2-1 board far more than an Eagle board in tone though. I don't know if that's common but I think probably not. I will say that the types of questions I asked were more similar to the types of questions a boy might get at an Eagle board. Not that I expected the same level of maturity in his answers as I might from an Eagle candidate, but I just thought that the EBOR shouldn't be the first time he's expected to really give thoughtful answers. This scout is 15-16 and not 13-14, which I think makes some difference as well. Reflecting on the process by which this scout was awarded his Life rank, I think I may add a question to my repertoire of BOR questions for the future, esp for 1st Cl, Star, and Life ranks. That is, "What does it mean to you to earn this rank?" Trying to think about ways to encourage boys to think of their ranks as more than simply hoops to jump through toward Eagle. Along those lines I was also frustrated that the SM announced to the troop that Scout A had successfully completed his Life BOR, which as we all know means another Eagle project and Eagle BOR is coming up soon. Again as if Life rank itself weren't a real meaningful accomplishment. Does that question seem appropriate to you? If my perceptions of how a board for Star/Life in particular should go are off base I would want to know.

Around here that is a pack decision. Our district strongly encourages packs to sign up new Tigers in the late spring (with the understanding that they become Tigers the day kindergarten ends) so that these boys can attend day camp with the pack. Some packs do this (ours did) and others don't. One consideration is the pack's summer schedule. There's not a lot of point in starting the Tiger program in June if the den and pack won't be meeting again until September. In our pack, there was at least one pack activity every month in the summer (day camp, parade, attend a baseball game, usually a hike and picnic) so it made some sense to sign up Tigers in June and encourage them to participate in these activities.

With regard to the stoves, will you be cooking outdoors then? Will the dad who has the stoves be present and/or are you certain that others who are attending know how to use his particular stoves if he won't be there? Will the boys be cooking (with help of course) or will the adults? Especially if the boys will be involved in cooking, think simple, quick, and hot. Make sure to consider who will wash the dishes and how, esp. if you don't have access to running water on site. Soup is both easy to do on a stove and hot. Pasta is simple, filling, and only requires boiling water (plus heating up some sauce). One-pot meals where you can pre-cook some ingredients prior to the campout to speed things along (esp meat) are good (chicken and rice, stew, chili). For breakfast, scrambled eggs in a bag work and are very simple. Someone can bring pre-chopped veggies, crumbled up sausage or bacon, and/or shredded cheese to throw into the eggs for variety (mainly your adults will appreciate this.) Pancakes are also simple and you can even buy liquid batter in gallon jugs where all you need to do is pour it onto the griddle/pan - one less bowl to wash up. Make sure the boys (esp the picky eater types) understand that eating a decent lunch & dinner is important in terms of their body's ability to generate heat through the rest of the day/night. Here's a place where having boy scouts deliver the message might be more effective than mom or dad or DL saying it!

I would contact the ranger or site manager to ask these questions about water, access to the indoor plumbing (just because it is there doesn't mean they'll let you use it) and if/how the cabin may be heated (is there a fire place? gas or electric heat? nothing?). If there's a fire place, are you expected to supply your own wood or use/purchase theirs? Some places have bans in effect on moving firewood to try to impede the spread of various bugs and even though in January you might think this wouldn't matter, it is worth asking about. With regard to gas/electric heat, is it turned on? Will you be expected to pay extra and if so, how much? Make extra double triple sure that both the boys and their parents are well aware of the type and amount of clothing and sleeping gear they ought to have and be sure you have a stash of extras of some of the vitals (hats, gloves, dry socks, etc.). Maybe encourage some boy scouts with winter camping experience to visit with your webelos to talk about "tricks" for staying warm (like, avoid heavy, wet, cottony jeans! or at the minimum, pack extras so they can change into dry ones as needed). Indoor games and activities - could be a mix of board games, "classics" like charades, and things to build/make, depending on your boys and their personalities/likes/dislikes. Anything non-electronic, right? Half of them will probably be amazed that you can have fun on a winter night without a tv, gameboy, xbox, etc.. Consider incorporating a couple of craftsman and/or artist pin options. Maybe do a couple of "chain" stories where each boy adds a few sentences before handing the story off to the next boy for whatever unexpected twist he comes up with. We did some fun things with optical illusions one night with some of our webelos guys at a lock in. On another occasion the boys made winter bird feeders and then hung them the next day before leaving - both relatively quieter activity but still enjoyable, though if you use peanut butter on the bird feeders make sure they have a way to clean up afterward if there's no warm running water. Heck, teach them to play marbles (most have probably never played). Have them work on a skit or show for your blue and gold banquet (usually in February so good timing here). Options are only limited by the amount of stuff you want to haul with you and your creativity.

Thanks for the input. Oak, I agree that's a logical way to do things and I appreciate the link to the national #s. I didn't know that information was available. What I've decided to do is to keep the two MBs that I've gotten requests for over the last two years, plus one other for which there are only one or two other MBCs in the council (American Cultures) on the off-chance that a boy might want to do it. I'm going to jettison "reading" (for which there are at least several MBCs in council) and pick up something else instead, probably one of the citizen badges. Although there are many MBCs on the list for those, many of them (from our troop at least) are parents of boys who are no longer active and those parents are also rarely available any more. jr, whether it is a "violation" or not, that's our council policy and I admit I'm not willing to "fight the fight" to try to change it right now. I have heard that one reason for the policy is that some troops were signing people up as MBCs for ridiculously large #s of MBs just to ensure that their boys never had to go outside the troop to work on a MB. Maybe not the best way to resolve that issue but I can see the point.

Recently I sat on a board of review for a scout seeking Life rank. The scout was ultimately successful, though it was a decision that was not easy for the adults to agree upon. Mumbled one word answers accompanied with shrugs and blank looks, very little reflection, inability to provide specific examples of scout spirit, how he puts the scout law into action, difficulty articulating or apparently grasping how he is a role model (as a scout in a visible and important POR in the troop) to other scouts, etc.. This scout appears to view advancement as just a bunch of hoops to jump through with little or no meaning to them. In short, very "teen" behavior and not terribly satisfying. And the board let him know politely but firmly, with specific examples, that such behavior needed to change if he expected to succeed in attaining the rank of Eagle. In honesty the outcome of the board was right on the edge of "delaying" rank advancement and maybe that would've been better, I'm still not sure. However, and here's my question, among the adults, a couple of BOR members indicated that even though they wouldn't like it, even such behavior as outlined above would not be grounds for delaying a scout at an Eagle board because the district would not support such an action. This of course was not communicated to the scout. But as many of you have more experience than I do in this matter, do you think that this is a perhaps unpleasant, but also realistic assessment? Also I'd appreciate input into how you encourage scouts who have the above view and corresponding attitude to rethink matters? This young man is focused on "getting" Eagle in as little time as possible so he can be "done" with scouting (he's been heard making comments to that effect to other scouts, in particular to other recent Eagles who have chosen to remain active with the troop after earning their rank). I realize it isn't unheard of - but most of the boys in our troop who do advance to Life and Eagle seem to be a lot more engaged than this young man is. Your candid thoughts on whether my fellow BOR members who are of the opinion that this sort of behavior would still pass muster in an Eagle BOR and whether/how we might help this young man get a fresh outlook would be appreciated.

Sounds to me like your DE is glossing over the differences between the two programs. Among questions I would ask: Do these weekends typically result in new recruits for crews? If so then maybe that's ok. If not then they're just glorified reward weekends for older boy scouts where crews are allowed to "play" too. "Just play" has its place but he shouldn't be surprised if not very many crews want to participate. Why isn't there a theme or an attempt at an organized program rather than just show up and play? The latter may be novel for boy scouts who are used to highly structured events but crews can (and from what I hear, frequently do) do the latter any time they want. What is the particular appeal to Sea Scouts (as opposed to other types of crews) in this program? Is it fellowship with other crews? Is it a chance to learn or demonstrate specific skills that are revelant to their program? Is it that your ship is one of the larger and more successful crews in the area and he needs you to get the head count up far enough so the event doesn't lose money or look like a flop? Sorry to say that from what little you've posted, I'm inclined to be a bit hard on the DE and his motives here. His plan appears to need some work in order to make it worth while to the crews he is inviting.

Around here DLs and CMs are among the target audience for BALOO because (let's be honest) they're the ones who are usually planning and implementing cub pack and webelos den camp outs. We did encourage as many people as possible to take it - with limited luck, I admit. Of course things might have changed in the last few years. But when I took BALOO the focus was on ensuring that there was a clear, well-organized, age-appropriate, G2SS-compliant, plan. That people understood the rules for who could camp in the cub program and under what conditions, for what activities would work well with what types of groups, for simple cooking ideas and how to have the cubs be involved with cooking in a safe way, how to advise parents (non-leaders) regarding what to bring or not, what they may do or not, etc., how to run a good campfire program for cubs, and some real basic "gear" type information for truly novice campers. We cooked a "field" lunch of soup and hot iron sandwiches and wrote mock camping plans. BSA Health & Safety training was included as well (which, as I seem to recall, focused mainly on rules for tour permits, driving, and 2-deep leadership). Although an experienced camper would find some of the above to be redundant, the emphasis was not so much on developing skill (or even teaching skills to cubs) as it was on ensuring proper planning and supervision. More of a cub camp out planning workshop. As for OLS again I agree with Oak that there's a mission and vision problem here. Two of the people who run our OLS courses are friends of mine. Both have "sold" the course to me and others by saying it teaches leaders the skills they need to have in order to help boys make first class rank. But that's not the same as teaching leaders HOW TO TEACH those same skills. I hear the same complaints about the outdoor training for webelos leaders (OWL or whatever current name is), which is sometimes treated as a beginners course for OLS. But let me say this as someone who does a lot of teaching (though not in outdoor skills, generally speaking). Many people who know the material cold are terrible at conveying that information to others in a useful manner. What I see as a major flaw in BSA leader training in my area overall is that there is very little emphasis on how to teach. Trainer development is non-existent or given lip service at best. This means that even very knowledgeable volunteers who are generous enough to take time to staff our courses often have no idea either what the objectives or outcomes are really supposed to be, or how to reach them. In the OLS and OWL cases, this translates into a change in mission to something simpler. Rather than teaching leaders how to teach skill we just teach leaders skill (hopefully). And if we're just teaching skill then I agree that many leaders really won't find this terribly useful because they already have that basic skill. For those who don't have the basic skills, a weekend intro is nice but (as others have said) isn't sufficient to really develop anything. So what purpose does OLS serve then? Answer...it fills in the blanks on your training record, maybe allows you to meet some new people, perhaps gives you a couple of new ideas, possibly gets you fired up (again) about camping. But it isn't enough to really teach skill and it isn't serving the purpose of teaching leaders how to teach skill.