Lisabob

OK svendzoid, so the question I have is, why do you want to be on the board? What are you hoping to influence or accomplish by becoming a board member? And do you really have the spare cash to pony up, that seems to be an unwritten expectation of E Board members (no need to answer that here, but think about it for yourself)? Most 20 year olds do not, although you may be the exception to the rule. And as far as I can tell, if what you want is to make an impact on scouting on the ground in your council, there are many more direct ways to do that than being on the E Board. Work on a district or council committee, for example. So I'm wondering why you set your sights on that particular position? I'm not saying you don't have a valid reason - I just am really curious what it is.

Did you guys look at the penalties section of the NJ law in question? For a first violation, civil penalties of up to $10,000 plus court costs & legal fees plus potential restitution. Up to $20,000 for each subsequent offense. Revocation of the non-profit group's state registration status (means no more fund raising at all, at least not legally in the state of NJ). And possibly more. Would a judge throw the book at a boy scout troop and PTO charter org? I certainly hope not. But could it happen? Sure looks like it to me. And incidentally it seems that since about 2003 NJ, along with many other states, has launched a crackdown on fraudulent fundraising.

Allangr, while I tend to agree that 30k is an awful lot of money, it also depends a bit on the size of the troop and the success of their fundraisers. Say you have a troop of 50-60 boys, each with $300-400 in their accounts from recent fundraisers. That's 15-24k right there. And before anyone says "$300-400 is far beyond what most boys have in accounts" I agree, most of the time - but time is approaching for those last summer camp payments to be made and so indeed, it is possible that accounts are at a high point right now, prior to making those payments. A few years back our large-ish troop went to Yellowstone, which is very far away from us and was quite expensive. In the run-up to that trip our troop banked a huge sum of money, which on the surface might have looked crazy, but boys worked for two years to fund raise for the trip. (My understanding is that that money was set up in specific "Yellowstone" accounts though and not floating around in a general troop fund.) Without knowing more about the troop in question here, it is hard to judge whether having $30k in the bank is excessive to the point of hording.

Svendzoid, are you talking high or low end? I believe Bob White is correct that in most cases, 18 is the minimum. I have not heard of any councils enacting a mandatory "retirement" age for the board, if that's what you are asking. Is your council doing this? And if so do they have an explanation for why? (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Very interesting situation. I would advise you NOT to go the self-charter route. First, if the PTO is a decades-long sponsor of your troop they may be quite shocked and upset to hear you decided to dump them. Yes I know, they're not *doing* anything to support you. But neither do you have a problematic relationship with them and switching COs is generally reserved for when there's an insurmountable problem - something which I'd like to think they would at least be aware of. Also, most DEs have small cows when you start talking about dumping an otherwise-acceptable CO and will, in all likelihood, apply pressure in the opposite direction. Not to mention that GW is correct, when you change COs, you open up a potential for the prior CO to lay claim to the goodies. More so if you offend them by blindsiding them with this change. So the better solution to that part of the problem is to quietly start developing a real relationship with the PTO. Find out what you can do to support their mission. Whether it is an annual school clean up (service hours!) or help staffing the start-of-school ice cream social or setting up tables at the school book fair or whatever, it shouldn't be too hard to find some small ways to help. -------------------- Now about the money - I'm not a tax lawyer or accountant. But FWIW, my understanding of "the rules" is very similar to Beavah's when it comes to paying money out to former scouts. In NJ it appears that the relevant law is the "Charitable Registration and Investigation Act," and it may be found online here: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/laws/charitylaws.pdf Please note in particular, the sections toward the end (starting on pg 20 in the online version linked above) about truthful statements and outlining what constitutes a violation, from which I've excerpted this segment: "45:17A-32 Statements required to be truthful; coercion prohibited; unlawful acts; practices. [...] c. The following acts and practices are declared unlawful as applied to the planning, conduct, or execution of any solicitation or charitable sales promotion: (1) To misrepresent the purpose or nature of the charitable institution or the purpose or beneficiary of a solicitation; to solicit contributions for a purpose other than the charitable purpose expressed in the statement of the charitable organization or expend contributions in a manner inconsistent with that purpose, or to fail to disclose any material fact. A misrepresentation may be accomplished by words or conduct;" Again I am not a lawyer and there's a reason tax law is a lucrative business. But it does appear on the surface that, if you solicit donations to support scouting and then from those donations you turn around and write Jimmy a $1000 check with no strings attached, this could be construed as a violation of your state's fundraising law. On the other hand, if you are talking about returning money that the scout/his parents personally put into his account (for convenience' sake, so they don't have to write a check for every little thing) that might be different. But if you plan to segregate "personal" money from "fundraising" money so as to refund any leftover personal cash, then you need to do two further things. First, the troop needs to have a clear book-keeping method of identifying how much of each sort of money each boy has (sort of a double account system) at a given time, and second, the troop needs to find a way to specify in writing how it is decided which sort of money is being used when paying for an outing or gear or whatever. I know a couple of troops who do that, and from what I gather it is a serious pain in the neck, especially if it is a larger troop. I hope this is helpful.

Let me tell you what I have watched happen on and off in my son's troop with regard to patrol make-up. Patrols in his troop are largely determined by the adults. I can't say I like this but that's the way it is done and it isn't something I'm really in a position to make change (I'm not the SM or CC and while I share my views with the SM from time to time, change happens slowly). Sometimes it is painfully adult driven, to the point where boys have been shuffled around without even being asked in advance if they mind. One result, among many, is that the patrols are often knots of contention. Boys who really do not get along or have very different styles and find it hard to work together, are lumped together anyway, seemingly without recourse. (Now if they went to the SM and asked to be moved I'm confident they could be, but I doubt they believe it). This makes the PL's job exceedingly difficult because some boys don't want to be in the patrol they're in and so they just refuse to cooperate with anybody who tries to lead them. I'll admit that at first I thought it made a lot of sense for adults to assign boys to patrols. But after observing this for a few years I have come to the conclusion that it makes far more sense to give the boys maximum input into how patrols are formed, if the desired goal is patrols that really function on their own. Sometimes guidance might be necessary but simply imposing from above has second and third order consequences that aren't fun to deal with if you're serious about having functional patrols.

Congratulations to your son, and to you. Sounds like a great weekend.

Hey! Where did Eagle90's comment go! It was both accurate and pithy and while dollar signs might indeed be offensive to those who aren't hard core capitalists, I can't see how his post might have been construed as inappropriate. Man I really dislike these disappearing posts.

"None to the extent of Obama." Puhlease! TheScout, I know you have a firm grasp of history so I suggest you take a careful look at, oh, practically any of our previous presidents (from any party) and consider whether that statement really holds water. I think you may find it does not. I don't care if you like Obama or if you loathe him, but let's work with facts here.

Show me a successful politician who doesn't.

That's especially unfortunate, coming from a boy who attained the rank of Eagle scout. (I know they aren't exactly a "rank" but don't forget palms though.) Keeping in mind a comment Eamonn has made a few times that a rank's worth can only truly be measured by the recipient, I won't comment on how he may have become an Eagle, etc.. Everything else I said would still stand though. And perhaps one reason his dad wants him in scouting is because he *does* recognize his son's behavioral problems and hopes that scouting will help him deal with them somehow. Things may not work out but I know several parents of "difficult" kids who put or keep their kids in scouting for exactly that reason. Or not - obviously you know the facts on the ground in a way that random folks on the web cannot. Edited to ask: How old is this boy? Are we talking 13-14 or 17-almost 18? There's a world of difference there.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

There are always circumstances and context so anything people say here is conjecture and your mileage may vary. That said, here I go conjecturing... I don't think I'd advocate kicking him out as a first option, or even a distant second or third option, unless this is repeat behavior. I do think I'd be looking at a suspension from scout activities for a certain amount of time, at least outings/camp outs. Boys who smoke pot on camp outs are clearly not able to control themselves well and/or are screaming out for attention to their problems, and as such, may end up causing harm to others, even if it is inadvertent. As a parent of a young teen I would also be very concerned that the troop send a clear message not only to this scout, but to all those younger scouts who are watching. And anyone who says "oh they aren't paying attention/they don't know" is fooling themselves; word travels quickly among youth about this sort of thing. I'd want to see this boy removed from any POR he held, for the simple reason that when one is not in control of one's self, one cannot lead or take responsibility for others. I certainly would not expect to see him advancing in rank anytime soon. And I'd want to work with this boy and his family to ensure that, if there are underlying problems (and usually when we talk about teens using drugs, there are other problems), he is able to get appropriate help. All that said - I think our laws regarding pot are a bit silly and some people tend to exaggerate the consequences of smoking an occasional joint. No it isn't good for you and no I don't do it; however, in comparison to legal drugs such as alcohol I just don't see the need to continue to criminalize its use, among adults. But, the law is the law. And he's not an adult. And he did this in a setting where, even if it were legal and he were an adult, it would have been inappropriate in the extreme (we don't get drunk in front of scouts either).

It depends a lot on the details. A den with active parents, a den leader with experience working with youth, a den leader who knows his or her community resources and has connections, will all make it a little easier. But realistically, to run a good den program? I think it take at least 3 hours a week (1 for the meeting, 1 to prepare, 1 for record keeping and communication with other adults including pack committee meetings) and sometimes more.

OK Trev, you said it. I'm asking! All you need to do is move to MI because I have a pack in desperate need of a good CM and they aren't having much luck finding one. Let me know when you can start.

Just a quick mention - this program is being piloted in our council in MI for next year too. I heard a rumor that it is somewhat more in line with the "new" cub leader training syllabus that is supposedly coming down the road too but I can't be sure of that. Will see what else I can learn about it though.

I'm disappointed to hear that some councils are using WB as a backdoor way of getting things done that need doing anyway. That isn't how this is supposed to work. If your council is doing that, find another council where you can take WB without that garbage, if you so desire. And then come back and make some racket with the council about how WB is being twisted and abused. It won't be popular among some of the "powers that be" but who cares? (And to set the record straight, no I haven't staffed a WB course up to this point. But I went through WB/21C in 2003 and I earned my 2 beads about 4 years ago now.)

I dare say that people who take the approach to their tickets that you describe, didn't fully "get it." WB is not supposed to create problems for units and it is not designed to kick active leaders "upstairs" either. Sometimes, it is true, that WB'ers go back to their units with a training-high-on-steroids. (Think about how people come back from just a one-day or one-weekend training on a high, and now multiply that times 8 days of pretty intense training with a group of already highly-motivated scouters, and wow! watch out!) These folks need gentle and understanding counseling about how to channel their energy in productive ways. Troop Guides and Ticket Counselors (part of the WB mentoring process) ought to be providing a solid dose of that counseling to those who are working their tickets. Some other things to consider: 1) At least when I wrote my ticket, I was strongly cautioned, multiple times, not to come up with grand plans that required others to carry the load - as then, completion of the ticket rests in the hands of those other people, who may not be interested in following through and also may not understand the process. Some participants may misunderstand this to mean that they shouldn't consult with their unit leadership. Some unit leadership may misunderstand this to mean that the tickets are outside the realm of unit plans and priorities. Neither is true. 2) Consider asking WB candidates to review their ticket proposals with you (SM) and the CC, prior to committing to them, as a courtesy to the unit (note this doesn't give you final yea or nay approval power but at least you'd be in the loop). This would have to take place between course weekends, as it is not desirable for most WB'ers to go to the course with ticket already mapped out - else, there's no room for what they learn to influence their ticket and that's a waste. 3) If this is an endemic problem, consider contacting the Course Director for the upcoming course, and requesting a meeting with him or her. Explain what you've seen and how it has become a problem for your unit. Ask them to work with Wood Badgers to alleviate this problem, in this course and future courses. 4) Don't let this stop you from attending WB on your own though. Just because others have been, perhaps, over-zealous and well-intentioned but off course, doesn't mean you have to follow in that pattern! If you want to go to WB, go. If you don't really want to, that's ok too but don't let this be the reason.

Yikes, check this out - some schools in Minnesota are planning to move to a 4 day schedule, reducing annual instructional time by 23 DAYS, just to pay the rising cost of fuel for buses. If that's not an indication of economic hard times, I don't know what is. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GAS_PRICES_SCHOOL_BUSES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The only place I have EVER heard of a person having "mandatory" membership in a particular scouting unit is within some LDS churches, where it is expected that boys of the proper ages will be members of the church's pack/troop/team. Outside of that, it might be unusual in your neck of the woods, but there is no rule saying you can't join a different pack and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something. Be careful not to confuse "that's the way it is always done" with "that's the way it has to be." Now there might not be other packs within driving distance if you live in a very rural area - but before you jump to that conclusion, call your council office, ask to speak with your District Executive, and ask him/her directly to provide you with a list of other packs and the contact info for their Committee Chairs, in your area. I know I was surprised to find that the town I live in (not a big town either) supports EIGHT packs! And then, if there really is no alternative, there's still the route SctDad suggests of starting up a new pack in town. This is a lot of work and wouldn't be my first option, but it isn't impossible either.

I want to add another piece to the picture if I can. John started this discussion by asking about whether this downturn, recession, slump, whatever is "real" or largely a media invention or self-fulfilling prophecy, or what. In our area, there's a town that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last decade due to low land prices, the housing boom in the late 90s/early 2000s, and (until recently) reasonable commuting distances from several regional cities. As a result the school district found itself overflowing with new students. The situation was untenable - not enough lockers and desks, not enough room in cafeterias and auditoriums for all-school activities, classrooms overflowing into trailers in the parking lots, etc.. They actually went to running a split schedule (where some students attend morning, others afternoon) to handle the overflow of students in the high school. Five years or so ago, they decided to build a new high school to relieve the pressure on the existing high school. Although money was a little tight 5 years ago, things were expected to improve by the time the building opened, thus making it economically viable. Fast forward - the high school was built on a large lot on the outskirts of town where land is still fairly cheap. It is gorgeous, everything you could want in a setting for an adolescent's intellectual stimulation and growth. It was opened this year and got rave reviews from students, parents, teachers, everyone. Next year that beautiful, functional, spanking new building will sit EMPTY while all the district's high school students are crammed back into the old (more centrally located) high school, because the economy just keeps getting worse around here. The state cut funding (yet again) for education due to budget short falls, and the district cannot afford to pay to operate 2 high schools, even though they're clearly needed. Apparently the straw that broke the camel's back? The district can't afford the rising gas prices that it would take next school year to get the buses to and from the new high school.

Ed, you've hit upon the concept of "inelastic demand." Oil is a strange commodity because unlike, say, coffee or bananas, there is no good, widely available substitute that people can just switch to when prices get too high. As you said, given our transportation infrastructure and economic basis, we're more or less stuck paying for gas since most of us do not live within walking/biking distance to work, don't have access to viable car-pools, and don't live or work anywhere near real public transportation. Solutions to these problems don't come overnight. And by the way - the price for a barrel of oil on the world market has traditionally been figured in US Dollars. That's great (for us) when the dollar is strong, but when the dollar is weak internationally, it means that all those who buy and sell oil tend to raise the price (in dollars) to compensate for the dollar's declining worth. And that is not so good for US consumers, as we're seeing these days. Lots and lots of pieces to this puzzle.

In order to register my son for 2010 jambo I just set up a new account for myself on the new myscouting system. This is apparently going to replace the current bsa elearning system and you can transfer prior elearning info to the new accounts - but only if you can remember your elearning username and password! Of course I can't, and none of the emails I think I probably used come up as correct when I try to use the prompt for those idiots who forgot their passwords...Grrr... I know I should have remembered my login info but honestly I only ever used the site maybe once every 6-8 months at most! So I ended up creating a whole new account and now all the records of online training I did under the old elearning system have gone away. Grr... not user friendly.

talen333, what is your source for your gas prices? This isn't the easiest source to dig around in - you have to be willing to get in past your elbows - but I took a look at the International Energy Agency's stats this morning, for April 2008 (latest month available) and for selected OECD countries (that is to say, countries with economies comparable to the US - advanced industrial democracies) here is what they found: Country Price/Gallon (average price in US Dollars) France 8.184060744 Germany 8.369545932 Italy 8.30897934 Spain 6.673681356 UK 8.078069208 Japan 4.841541948 Canada 4.398648744 US 3.380372916 Obviously prices have gone up just since April. But it does kind of put things in a little bit of a different perspective. (In order to get the price/gallon you need to take the "price/liter" given in the original statistics and multiply that by 3.785412, in case anybody cares.) Here's the source data if others want to play around with it. http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/surveys/mps.pdf I thought some folks might find this interesting too. According to the Energy Information Administration (part of the Dept. of Energy in the US federal govt): "In 2007, about 58% of the petroleum consumed in the U.S. was imported from foreign countries." And for 2007, the most recent year for which data is available, "[t]he top five source countries and their percent share of U.S. total net petroleum imports were: Canada (18%) Saudia Arabia (12%) Venezuela (11%) Mexico (10%) Nigeria (9%)" (Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/crudeoil_faqs.asp#foreign_oil) So let's all blame Canada!

Depending on your unit - sometimes another adult can have a rather firm discussion with the hover parent in question and explain to them that this is simply not how the pack/troop/crew/whatever works. Sometimes these parents see the light and become your best, most dedicated behind the scenes volunteers. Often though, I have to agree with Ed that the last thing you want to do is give them "power" by putting them in any sort of adult leadership position where they will just hover more. And thank you Vicki - you're absolutely right that it isn't a gender thing! Right now our troop has a couple hover parents of each gender. The thing that gets me is that the hover dads we have, ought to know better! They have older boys in scouting, have been trained, and have been leaders for a while. Yet, when they're present (and their kids generally aren't, if these dads aren't present), their kids are constantly by their side asking what to do next, instead of working in their patrols and trying to solve their problems on their own.

One of the reasons that the guideline is 6-8 boys (I've never heard of this as "must split at x # of boys" either - rather as a guideline) is that when you go much bigger, each boy gets less personal interaction. Sometimes group settings really are more convenient for the adults, but that's not how the program is designed and adult convenience should come second to what the boys get from the program. I will also add that as the boys get older, it actually becomes more difficult to have a very large den. As Tigers, adult participation is mandatory so if you have 15 kids, you also have 15 adults to lend a hand. As wolves, lots of parents continue to stick around. As bears, you actually want to begin the long process of peeling the parents off a bit, and by the time you hit webelos, the den leader - not the parents - is supposed to be the primary adult that the boys go to. Additionally with older boys, fewer parents are likely to stay at the den meetings even if they want to; they have other kids in younger dens who need them more, multiple kids to drive around, whatever, and it just doesn't happen as much that you have a support crew of adults in the room with you. I know a lot of den leaders who start with this idea that 10-15 works just great until they hit those older grades, but by then it is even harder to split the den because "they've been together since they were Tigers!" I'd agree with others that the CC might have communicated this better with you, but it does sound like he was just trying to follow the guidelines here. Go talk with him about it; you may both come away with a renewed appreciation for each other's positions.