Lisabob

Michelle, Yikes, that sounds pretty bad. I hope that nephew will hold on to his positive experiences in scouting, whatever may be the story here.

Avid makes an interesting point about Tigers and retention. I've been district membership chair for almost a year now, and been involved with our district membership staff on and off for a few years before that. In that time I have seen push after push to recruit new Tigers, and it *works*! The boys can hardly wait to become cub scouts and many parents are just as eager (including lots who were scouts themselves). And I also see the rosters of the packs in our district every year, and I know for a fact that we lose huge numbers of Tigers - and their parents, and their little brothers in the future - due to poorly run den programs. People do not sign up their child for a roller coaster ride, poor organization, poor communication, endless hassles, etc.. They sign them up for a fun, family-oriented youth program with all the bells and whistles that the BSA promotes. When the den falls apart after a couple months, or never even truly launches to begin with, the first thing that happens is the more experienced folks (including UCs and other of us "district types" turns to these new parents and blames THEM for not stepping up! The second thing htat happens is a lot of those new parents say "hey, this isn't what I thought we were getting into here, and it isn't our fault you can't deliver what you promised us at Round Up." And then they leave. I don't really blame parents for this. I know that I felt that way more than once in my son's first year of scouting. Now we stuck with it and ended up becoming volunteers and all that. But we had the luxury of time to do so, which many other folks do not have. I really think if we want to see our membership grow then we need to do something, as an organization, about those Tiger retention numbers. National needs to change the approach to shared leadership among Tiger parents. Having brand new parents serve as Tiger Leaders all too often simply does not work. It sounds great on paper and all, and sometimes someone comes along who really "gets" the program right away, has time to go to a high quality district training session, and who runs a really good den. But in watching for several years, I've concluded that this is not the norm. Most strong packs in my area get around this by finding someone to be their Tiger leader who has prior experience as a Cub Leader. But this is tough to do, and not all packs are fortunate enough to have someone who can do this, let alone have someone who will do it every year. So the program is incredibly uneven and soone3r or later, somebody (usually the CM) looks at the literature from national and says "hey, the new Tiger parents are supposed to be leading themselves!" And then it falls apart all over again.

I also don't understand why WB beads would be awarded for anything other than completion of WB. For that matter, I also really don't understand the desire to import academic degrees and regalia into a scouting context either. No offense intended to anyone, but earning a "bachelors" or "masters" or "doctorate" of scouting is nothing like earning the actual academic degree - it just doesn't fit and serves only to cheapen the experience, in my view. Seems to me that if we want more meaningful symbols, we should be careful to use them only in appropriate and meaningful contexts. But just as I don't know anyone who earns a PhD just for the heck of it or the bragging rights (ha!), I don't know anyone who earns their WB beads for their own sake. Like an academic degree, the beads are merely symbols. And like the process of earning the degree, the process of earning the beads should be viewed as a means, not an end in itself. Once accomplished, either (degree or beads) can and should be used as a springboard to new accomplishments, new ways of thinking, and renewed dedication to the ideals of the program. The beads or degree alone, don't make you much of anything. It is what you do with what you've learned, that matters.

I have mixed feelings about the email summary issue. On one hand, it might be the difference for some parents of new scouts, between being willing and unwilling to send their children away to camp for a week. I am astonished at how many boys have never been away from home without their parents for more than a night (and some, not even for that!) prior to attending their first scout camp. In most of those cases, parental anxiety is greater than the scouts' anxiety, and an email or two go might go a long way toward ensuring mom and dad that Jr. is fine. If that's what it takes for them to agree to let their child go to camp, then I guess I'm grudgingly for it. On the other hand, it IS a lot of work for the SM. And it allows hover parents to hover more, taking away some of the scout's independence and ownership of his experiences because his every move may be reported back to parents that same day, with possibility for instruction from parents to sons to appear via email. Some parents I know would almost certainly misuse or perhaps abuse the access by trying to micro-manage Jr. across the ether. It is for these boys that going away for 5 or 6 days can be a really life changing experience, and having one more tether to home via email might diminish this. This is different from sending a quick email to worried parents after a storm has roared through camp, just to let everyone know you're all ok (especially in wake of the Iowa tragedy). And Sprite, if it works for your troop then that's great. But I find myself agreeing with Eamonn on this one, even though around here our boys tend to go much further afield to summer camp. If parents really want to know what's happening, how about just encouraging Jr. to send them a quick letter mid-week?

I dunno guys, I see a lot of interest in going outside and doing camping-related activities among boys in middle school and early high school (my son's age and younger). I don't see a lot of interest among older middle schoolers in being "boy scouts" though - there is an image/branding issue here that has little to do with a love of the outdoors, or lack thereof. As for X games and Boy Scouts - well I had a really interesting conversation with our brand new DE the other day. She hasn't got any scouting experience and is fresh out of college to boot so she's facing an uphill battle in her first year as DE if you ask me. But she did intern with X games and she was telling me about what they do to attract boys ages 10-14 to their program. And I must say, it seems the BSA could learn a few tricks there! Her take was that although X games may be an easier sell (what boy doesn't think Tony Hawk is cool?), one reason the brand is successful is because they do a lot of hands on, fairly aggressive marketing to their target audience. We, BSA, do not. We hold a few "join cub scouts" events and call it quits. Now we're all volunteers and the X games folks are not - big difference in resources available to us, including our time. But it gave me something to think about at any rate. By the way we held an interest night recently for a new crew, in a district and council where crews are practically unheard of. We had 15+ interested youth show up. The only thing stopping that crew from becoming a reality thus far? Lack of adults willing to serve as committee members. So I am not certain I buy the notion that teens and pre-teens don't want to do the outdoors stuff. I do, though, believe we haven't done a heck of a lot to work on making BSA attractive to a lot of youth in this age bracket. Can't fault kids, or even their parents, for that one.

Ed, that's not the point, though it is a good idea. One of the "promises" of the online learning system was that when you completed an online training like youth protection or something, your electronic file would list the courses you had completed, and when. In fact I can document my training because, being a record keeper, I printed out copies of all the certificates at the ends of the courses. But, my annoyance is that my electronic record for those previous trainings seems to have vanished, even when I use my BSA id # to pull up records. That, I find very annoying.

OK thanks folks, I think we all see each other's views at this point in the discussion. So how about we leave things where they are, hmm? Because it appears that the discussion here is past the point of being useful - at least, to me. I do appreciate the thoughtful posts of many people who gave their views on this topic and I am also confident that our troop has found what we feel is an appropriate way to handle the matter. Many of the options and views expressed earlier in this thread helped us. Thanks again.

OK guys, thanks for your comments. No need to continue the back and forth of the last few posts. I think we've more or less decided, as a unit, how we wish to handle this one. I appreciate everyone's input in this thread and the other couple that stemmed from the initial incident.

No they can't change the requirements, but furthermore, they are also highly unlikely to "check up" to see whether you met whatever criteria they may be currently imagining. I have never, not once, heard of our council seeking verification that a pack actually earned this award. So I wouldn't sweat it unless they're demanding proof that you met/will meet some incorrect criteria.

OK based on your description I am guessing this might be a fellow who likes to work with his hands? Ask him to help you with next year's pinewood derby (not necessarily organizing all of it - that's a big task - but maybe with helping do a pack "pit night" or something like that, or help with a pack conservation project like building bird houses or something along those lines.

There is no one in the troop more powerful than the Troop Guide in the troop life of a new scout. A good one will help these new boys make the leap from cub scouts to boy scouts with relatively little pain. A bad one can be the cause of new boys leaving the troop and maybe leaving scouts all together, even if the rest of the troop program is solid. A great one can help make the new scout patrol the strongest patrol in the troop, one where all the members really strive to help each other and learn everything they can to become stronger scouts. A great TG walks on water in the eyes of "his" patrol of new scouts, who will want to be just like him in years to come. One of the nicest Eagle ceremonies I've been to was for a young man who served for a year as a TG. Every boy who had been in "his" patrol attended his ceremony and played a part in it. The following year, recruitment for the troop doubled and parents whom no one in the troop had ever met, said they wanted their sons to join that troop because they'd heard about that "wonderful older boy" who served as a TG. No kidding. Go for it - Troop Guide is a great position for an older scout who cares about the future of his troop, and about sharing the fun of scouting with new boys.

Hey Sctdad, congratulations. Now that you've had to punt your way through a major cub event, you're "one of us...." (envision zombies marching toward you with outstretched arms) Seems no matter what, sooner or later, something like this happens. And it sounds like you pulled it off admirably despite all the last minute improvisations. Good for you! And thanks for all the time you put into scouting, to make it happen for a bunch of little boys.

Thanks for the input. I was thinking about the driver in this case, who (now that he has his license) is also the primary mode of transport for one of our new scouts - his little brother. I did not realize the rules applied to trips only but I can see why that makes some sense. (that said, the chances of me agreeing to my child ever riding anywhere in this kid's car went from slim to none as a result of seeing this)

So either your DE is being kind of a goofball or they really aren't interested in your services (or maybe both). Without knowing you, your DE, and others involved it is impossible to tell so I'll leave it to you to determine which is more accurate. But assuming it is the former and not the latter, hey you probably still have the district membership chair's contact info since you used to be on that committee, right? Why not just contact them and ask? Seriously, if you found school intervened too much for you to serve actively mid-year, are you sure you want to get into the e-board? I know for myself that it is temptingly easy to over-commit to things during my "slow" times of year at work, and then wish I hadn't when the pace picks up again.

Michelle, thanks for thinking of him and yes, I did.

Generally I like Bob's suggestion too but also agree with Beavah that the CoH isn't the best place for it. Unfortunately in our case the CoH is our next, and last, regular meeting until fall (we have troop activities in the summer but no weekly meetings). Not addressing it somehow at the CoH therefore means dropping it, since by fall it will be ancient history. We have a well-regarded police officer as one of our ASMs and I think I'll suggest to our SM that this officer be asked to speak briefly to the group about summer safety in general, and perhaps to spend a few more minutes speaking privately and in more detail to the boys involved.

Ed, I was one of the parents who saw them doing it, not the only one either. And actually they were on their way home from the troop PLC at the SM's house. I think you're absolutely right that the boys do not make the connection of how the scout law and oath apply to life outside of scouting. I admit I about blew a gasket when I saw these kids doing this. One boy told me they were "just having fun" and "weren't driving that fast anyway." (they were going at least 30!) I really doubt they understood how risky it could be. I too knew a boy who was killed in exactly the same way that Venividi described, when we were in high school. My husband said he knew someone (else)in his high school who died that way too. He tells me lots of boys did this. Apparently it is through sheer dumb luck that any teenage boys live to adulthood! (no offense intended to present company)

I find myself in agreement with Kudu (gasp) and Beavah, that teaching leadership styles to boys in an abstract classroom setting does not work. I watch this with my own teenage son, who has been to several TLTs and come away from most of them with very little in the way of useful tidbits for how to be a good patrol leader. He has told me that he finds these sessions to be boring and pointless. And I like to think he isn't unusually thick - but it is clear the curriculum for these trainings doesn't do a lot to make him a better leader. His major complaint about senior troop leaders (SPL and ASPLs) is that they don't do much to help struggling patrol leaders because they parrot the gobbledy gook from TLT at him again instead of offering good ideas based on real experience for when times are tough in a patrol. Has my son learned a lot about leadership, and especially about how NOT to lead? Oh sure, but it comes from his experiences and (less than I'd like) from quiet, practical mentoring moments with other boys or the occasional adult.

I would second the comments from various people that getting onto a district committee is typically very, very easy (I'm a chair of one committee and if you showed up and said hey, I'd like to be part of what your committee does, I would probably be doing the "happy happy joy joy" dance - out of sight of course so as not to scare you!) There are two exceptions. If people perceive that you aren't interested in doing the work, aren't reliable, and generally are a liability, THEN it may be hard to get onto a committee. I do know one Scouter who I would avoid like the plague if that individual tried to worm their way onto my committee, and if by some fault they ended up there anyway, I would give them endless busy work to do because from long experience, they cannot be trusted and they sow discord everywhere they go. However, I am assuming that this sort of description does not apply to you. Or, if your district operates on the "old boy network" principle and you have no connections, THEN it might also be tougher. But I can tell you, again from experience just like most of the other posters here, that actually serving on district committees is rather inglorious work. It may be important, but it is shadow work. And it is frustrating too because sometimes the line between supporting units and becoming over-involved in units' troubles can be a tough one not to cross. Speaking as my district's membership chair - yes I agree 100% that strong program = more members = healthier district = healthier council. But the wall I run into frequently is that strong program comes from WITHIN the unit! And while I can support units, I cannot run them all! Nor would many units want me to try to micro-manage them in that manner. So again, think really hard about where you want to contribute. It sounds to me like your desire to build strong programs would translate well into working on district committees that are active in providing program (like camporee or summer camp), or by working directly in or with a struggling unit (maybe as a UC). And if you are truly finding it so difficult just to get involved in the district committees, ask yourself why and whether that's the best place for your efforts anyway.

I don't think you should expect, or be expected, to run district events as a direct result of taking Wood Badge, unless as Bob says, that's what your goal was going into Wood Badge. Most Wood Badgers are much more tightly focused on their pack, troop, crew, team, or ship. To give you a few examples of things I've seen Wood Badgers do, and these were people with only a couple of years' experience as adult leaders: strengthen a pack's outdoor program by planning and running a pack camp out; organize a series of activities culminating in the opportunity for participants (pack or den) to earn the World Conservation or Leave No Trace Awareness awards; improve the pack's communications by publishing a monthly pack newsletter for X # of months. These are not things that would be suitable for all packs, or for all cub leaders. They are, however, probably more typical examples of the narrow focus and more manageable nature of a lot of ticket items than "host a district camporee." What I would suggest to you, as you start thinking about taking Wood Badge next summer, is to keep a list of things that your pack does well, and of things that you don't do so well. And then think some about what it would take to improve on those weak areas, and whether any of those areas align with your particular position in the pack and your particular skills and interests. You don't need to go into Wood Badge with your ticket already written and indeed I think it is a bad idea to try to do that - I know people who have and in practically every instance, what they ended up doing was closing themselves off from actually learning, or applying what they were supposed to learn from the course. But, going into WB with a clear sense of what your unit's strengths and weaknesses are, and where you fit into the unit, may be very helpful to you and to your pack. I hope this is helpful. Lisa'Bob (A good old Bob White too!) Edited to add: Oops sorry, somehow I had the impression you were working with a pack (hence the pack-level examples) but upon re-reading I see this is not the case. Hope it is helpful to you anyway.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

As a tangent to my other post about scouts, cars, and the occasional idiocy of teen age boys behind the wheel, I have a question about BSA driving rules. I know that youth drivers are not supposed to drive other scouts to/from scouting events. Does that apply to younger siblings? Or only to unrelated scouts? If a parent gives permission for their child (related or not) to ride in the car with a youth driver, does that over-ride this limitation? Or is it a hard-and-fast BSA rule?

What do you make of this? While not at a scouting function a parent/troop leader sees some older boys from the troop engaging in extremely risky driving behavior (what I'm told is called "hood surfing" which includes driving down the road with a person belly down on the roof of the car). SPL driving in the car in front of the "surfers," older boy who recently obtained Life rank and just got his driver's license driving the surfing car (allegedly on a dare from SPL but that's hearsay), another older boy and patrol leader (Star rank) "surfing" on the hood of the car. Several younger scouts laughing and chasing after the cars and younger brothers riding in the cars, ensuring that others in the troop hear about it. Keeping in mind that this wasn't at a scouting function, is there an appropriate "consequence" within scouting? Is this a matter of boys just being dumb but no one got hurt so we'll chalk it up to momentary idiocy, and moms over-reacting? Is this a case of "how could I trust these older boys to show judgment and keep an eye out for young cross-over scouts in their charge at a scouting event when they've proven themselves so untrustworthy here?" Happily my child wasn't directly involved in this because if he had been and I'd found out, he'd have a lot more than just scouting consequences to worry about! But it is a matter highly likely to come up in a scouting context very soon and I'd be interested in your thoughts about appropriate responses within the troop.

We surpassed our family goal by nearly 40% this year. We are still plugging away at the community goal. I've been told we should come out a little ahead of the curve at the end of the day when both are combined to meet our overall goal. Honestly I was shocked when I heard about the success of our family campaign! One part of it was a large donation from one family but even without that we'd have made the goal and then some. Given what I've said in other threads recently about the economy around here, this came as a (very pleasant) surprise.

We're in pretty much the same place as allangr. While we haven't charged for gas on routine camp outs in the past, we are finding that more of our volunteers are raising the issue. We do typically reimburse for summer camp if receipts are turned in. And again, although in the past some adults have been happy to swallow the costs, as gas prices go up, more are being conscientious about turning in receipts for reimbursement. This year, when we drew up our budget for summer camp, we included a $20 fuel charge (estimating $4/gallon gas, back when cost was around $2.70/gallon). If fuel prices go any higher we are actually going to have to slap another $5 per passenger (not drivers) onto this year's summer camp cost. I hate doing that last-minute but at $4.25/gallon, we're about $200 short of what we estimate the total gas cost for the group will be. In good conscience I don't feel right asking adults who are already paying to go to summer camp and giving up a week of their time, to also eat the rising cost of transport for other people's kids.

You have a point about the twilight zone between 18-21. Part of it is the program (Boy Scouts vs. Venturing) that defines people of the same age as either youth or adults, depending on where they are registered. Part of it is our society, in which increasingly, 21 and not 18 is the threshold for a lot of "adult" activities. And I would not argue that you are unfit to be a board member based on age alone. Nor do I think having a stronger youth or young adult voice on council boards is a bad thing, and that's why many councils allow the OA representation on the board (however I question the effectiveness of this - it certainly appears to be a token representation at best, at least in my own council). However, I think that Bob White and John and OGE, and others have some good points when they suggest that a) you need to acquaint yourself in detail with what the board actually does and how the board in YOUR council functions before attempting to become a member (just like you'd do your research on a company before going for a job interview); and b) that you should consider whether you'll be able to live up to the widespread, if unwritten, financial expectations of board members. Even though we might have an interesting discussion about whether deep pockets OUGHT to be a criterion, reality is that they appear to be in most places. Inability to meet the group's expectations and norms of behavior will make you a powerless member of the group even if you do gain a seat; and c) the council board really may not be the best place to focus your energies, given what you hope to accomplish. You mention you are on a district and council committee as a non-voting member. Does this mean you're an at large member? Or are you part of a specific committee like, say, program committee/cub outdoor committee/membership committee/etc.? If you aren't in a specific committee position, my recommendation to you is to think hard about what your interest is and where your strengths and talents are. For example, maybe you're interested in seeing the council build up a better climbing program - in that case you might want to get into the program committee. Or maybe you want to help with training new boy scout leaders in how to teach outdoor skills to scouts (and young adults who were scouts are often excellent teachers of new adult volunteers in this realm), in which case the training committee might be the place for you. And if you persist in your desire to gain a spot on the board, well as you said, you're nearly 21 and your SE indicates that 21 is the minimum age for your council. So sure, start campaigning. It can't hurt and I am pretty sure it is going to take some time and effort to convince skeptical folks that you should have a place there anyway. Please don't take that as discouragement, but simply as an acknowledgment that you probably are fighting an uphill battle. I wish you the best, and I can tell you that if you were in my district and sought a spot on the committee where I serve, we'd welcome you with open arms - youth and energy are highly desirable commodities on most committees.