Lisabob

gwd, most of the "urban legends" I've ever "learned" came from TRAINING! I can't tell you how many times I have heard some authoritative fellow (or gal) stand up in front of the group and start spouting the silliest nonsense. Seems especially prone to occur when Boy Scout leaders get drafted (often last minute, in their defense) to teach Cub Leader Specific Training. It would be humorous if only it didn't happen with such regularity. Some of the things I "learned" about cubbing at training over the years: *Cubs can't camp at all *Cubs can't camp more than one night *Tigers can't attend pack overnighters *Webelos can't camp with troops *Webelos can't camp with younger cubs *Webelos dens can't camp alone (apparently we've hit the trifecta here and now Webelos can't camp at all?!) *OWL is mandatory in order to take Webelos camping *BALOO doesn't apply to overnighters unless you sleep in a tent *BALOO means someone with training has to do the paperwork, not go on the event *Having a Boy Scout SM or ASM along means you don't need a BALOO-trained person at all *Belt loops cannot be earned/must be removed/must be re-earned in order to be worn by webelos *Belt loops cannot be earned by Tigers *Belt loops cannot be awarded until after the bobcat is earned *The "new" belt loops (not really new, they've been around 6-8 years now) are not official and don't count (this came from my Wood Badge CD! I promptly bought him a set, along with the academic & sports BL/pin handbook) *Tigers can't wear blue shirts/webelos must all wear tan shirts/shirt decision is made by the den or pack, not the family *Bobcat is optional for Tigers *Cross-overs must happen in February because that's scout month *Boys who haven't earned AoL by February of 5th grade are out of luck and can't stay with the pack through the end of the school year to finish it up. *Only Bears can earn the cub scout whittling chip so if your kid is a webelos and didn't earn it previously, it is too late *AoL knot cannot be worn on a boy scout uniform *Cub religious knot cannot be worn on a boy scout uniform *Adult leader knots earned as a cub leader cannot be worn on an adult's boy scout uniform *Boys who earned AoL don't have to do the Scout requirements when they join Boy Scouts And I'm sure there are more...these are just some of the ones I remember having to go back and unlearn, or unteach, later on. Methinks we need re-education programs for our trainers.

Beavah, thank you for your interpretation. I do intend to purchase the books, both for myself and for our troop because it annoys me no end when people don't follow basic procedure, create further problems that end up in the lap of others (like the committee) as a result of not following procedure, and then claim lack of info/access to the books as their explanation for the whole mess. I had, however, forgotten about the SM Other HB. Will probably offer that as a gift to our current SM. And as for staying out of it - yeah, except for the small matter of our SM specifically asking me to provide input and offer direction to the relevant BSA source material! While true that some people in that other thread didn't give me exactly what I asked for, BW actually did tell me where in the SPL and SM handbooks to direct folks and that was exactly what I was hoping for. What I hoped to avoid - and did - was a long, torturous thread where people accuse each other of not doing "real scouting" or other such nonsense based on personal opinions about the underlying disciplinary scenario, which I am also not interested in sharing online.

We have one every year, run by the local WB association. As far as I'm aware, this is coordinated with the "blessing" of our council staff. It is a little hard to say whether it is a formal council event - I'm inclined to say not because the WB assoc. has its own board and runs separate elections to that board. On the other hand though, everyone involved is active in our council and some hold multiple positions including on council committees. So there's a good bit of overlap. The dues for our WB assoc. fund WB scholarships. However, to apply for those scholarships, one must go through council.

Sometimes I agree with you Beavah, that the "by the book" answer really is not useful, especially when someone comes seeking ADVICE. As for the thread I started, and to which you refer, the reason I asked that question the way I did was because I didn't have a copy of the SM handbook or the SPL handbook available. I wanted to know specifically what those two books say about the disciplinary process and where to find hte info in those two books because we have an SPL and a SM who don't appear to know either, and they acknowledge that they need to know. I wanted to know whether it was appropriate to point them toward page 29 (or whichever page) in their respective books, without me having to drive 75 miles to and from the scout shop, buy the books, and pore over them for a few days to find some answers first. (NB: I actually do plan to buy the books for my own reference sometime soon but I haven't had time to get myself to the scout shop during business hours in the last couple of weeks. And I'm neither an SM nor an SPL, so I didn't already own them.) Sometimes, the "book" answer really is what is sought and what is needed. However I think it would be useful for people to carefully read what the poster is asking for. Many who come here want opinions, or interpretations, not page references. While some of us might be best equipped to provide the page refs, it might be helpful to acknowledge that those references aren't always the be-all and end-all of the story. On the other hand, opinion/interpretation answers are also great but could sometimes be clearer that the answer given is not a BSA policy statement.

Thanks folks, I appreciate it.

As far as I am aware, there is no formal appeals process for cub awards. Consequently, what you're going to get here is a collection of people's opinions, based on our own experiences. So, in my experience and judgment, your best option is probably NOT to dig in your heels here, but instead, to have a reasonable conversation and set guidelines that the whole group (parents too) can support from the get go. Since you are now talking about webelos, you can frame this by explaining to parents and boys how there is a shift from having parents sign off on activities in the scout's book, to having the DL or his/her designate sign off. You can explain that this is in prep for boy scouts where boys are expected to seek out the SM (or his/her designates) for sign offs. This is a natural segway to working with boys to develop a set of expectations on how they will get sign offs from you. If the boys buy in, the parents probably will too, as long as you keep them in the loop. This is probably preferable to framing this in terms of "Your old DL Mr X was way too easy on you and I'm going to lay down the law." But if it comes down to a figurative shoving match between you and the CM? Well then I'd say all of the adults have failed to do their jobs effectively and need to learn to play well with others, or else someone needs to go find a different pack where their views are better supported or in synch with the group.

I'm not sure I understand why the DL feels the scout was inactive during the month of May if the boy attended meetings. I think this is a point to revisit. There is no set percentage or formal definition of active as it applies to the AoL, but that does not mean that the DL can arbitrarily create a standard either (adding to the requirements). On the other hand, you are the Scout Master, not the Cub Master or DL, or even the parent. You do not have the authority to award the AoL, which is a CUB scout award, not a BOY scout award. Doing so in spite of this will, in all likelihood, result in burned bridges and angry cub leaders. Is that really worth while? My recommendation is that you sit down with the parent and the cub leader(s) and have a reasonable adult conversation about the requirements and what is best for this boy, and what interests the DL thinks would be served by making this boy wait until November if he's truly ready right now. It may be that the cub DL is just being a stick in the mud and that you can provide him with some gentle course correction. It may also be that the parent is unreasonably and unrealistically expecting his kid to "get" an award that the boy has truly not earned. Surely you've had some experience with such parents expecting boy scout ranks to be handed out like candy, so before you go much further it would be good to do a little more fact checking on the parent's version of things I think.

Hmm, I've heard that some branches of the military prohibit (?) tattoos that are visible when in uniform. Maybe some of you kind folks here can clarify that for me. As for leaders - well there's appropriate and inappropriate tattoos, I suppose. Honestly I don't think it would bug me a lot unless it got to a point of being a huge distraction(I had a student once who had tattoo'd just about every visible inch of herself, face included. It was just so...odd...sometimes it was hard to have a conversation without being distracted. I hope she was planning to work in the art world or something.). But I can see where some CO *could* claim that excessive tats are not in keeping with the expectation that a scout is "clean?" And I can also imagine some parents who wouldn't be too gung ho about their kid joining a troop where the SM was fully adorned - just the wrong role model for some folks I guess.

I am looking for a "book" answer (NOT A DEBATE over best practices - that's another thread) and I don't have the books in question. Hoping for a few folks here who do, to provide a quick answer. Is there anything in either the SM handbook or in the SPL's handbook about who makes disciplinary decisions? Specifically, do either books provide for or spell out the role that the SPL or perhaps the PLC might play in determining appropriate consequences for misbehavior on a camp out by a scout? I ask this because it was always my understanding that disciplinary matters were one of the few places where "boy led" is likely NOT to be the gold standard, and that in fact disciplinary action ought to be the domain of the SM, with backing of the CC, and within the guidelines and preferences of the CO (to the extent that the CO is not utterly oblivious). However, I suppose I may be incorrect and would like to know what the book answer is. Thanks.

" Bob White, funny little critter with colorful feathers but a brain the size of a large pea seed, runs in groups when it would likely be better served by taking flight; sure hope I'm not in that Patrol in my WB course in two weeks!" ------------------ Oy! Watch the critter slights! Apparently you've never met a flock of angry bobwhites before... Lisa'bob A Good Old BOBWHITE too!

Not that I know my insects from my isopods there pack, but I do know a bunch of 10-12 year old boys who thought this badge would be really really cool, based on the name, and then they looked at the requirements and changed their minds. Too bad. The only counselor I'm aware of in my area has a PhD in some sort of biology and is a high school bio teacher. Even she agrees it can be a tricky one. She's a great MBC but how many boys will ever work with her on this one? I think this badge is a candidate for the zealot award.

Did anybody ask this young man to do any of those things? Not as rank advancement requirements, but as a simple friendly request?

I would expect our Scoutmaster to discuss WHY there are no sign-offs in the book if this were to happen in our troop. There might be a good reason and that reason might differ, depending on the rank of the scout in question. For a scout who is approaching tenderfoot there may be some confusion about how this process works (yes I know it was announced several times but have you noticed that 10-11 year old boys' heads are seemingly not attached to their shoulders on many occasions?). In that case I suppose the SM might very well talk with the scout and then sign off, if the SM is satisfied that requirements were met. For a 2nd/1st Class scout I would expect the bulk of the requirements would be signed off prior to the conference in most cases (unless it is a really small troop and the SM has a fantastic memory). Lack of sign-offs here might be a concern. The boy should certainly understand the process by that point. For a Star or Life scout, the requirements are typically things that the SM him/herself approves or that do not need signatures along the way (like merit badge requirements) and so it might be the case that the boy worked diligently along the way, sought and received verbal approval (for example, for the service hours), and the SM's signature is a mere formality to be handled at the SM Conference. So in this case, no sign-offs wouldn't necessarily worry me, especially if it is a smaller troop. (On a tangent, are we to suppose that you are a committee member and treasurer for your troop? In that case, are you certain of what the details of the SM conference actually were? And how does your SM explain the situation? This is the SM's obligation here, not yours.) Hope this helps, and welcome to the board.

if patience were in there, that would be the one I'd say I struggle with the most. Not with kids - I have a lot of patience for kids under most circumstances - it is the adults, who ought to know better, that are my undoing sometimes. But, since patience isn't in the law or oath, I guess that leaves me with kind on occasion (I've been known to speak first, think later) and also obedient. I have a pretty tough time going along with something I view as ill-informed, even in situations where I should really just bite my tongue and let it all play out. Happily I work in a setting where mind-numbing obedience for its own sake isn't a highly prized trait!

Nissan, with all respect, I think you are creating a problem for yourself where there does not need to be one. If parents cannot get their act together by the deadline, then make it clear that they are welcome to work something out with the camp but that you - as a representative of the pack - have no say over matters and will not be held responsible for how things turn out. This means you aren't responsible for transporting last-minute kids either (if you can, fine, but there should be no expectation on the parent's part). This means parents need to figure out how to get junior to camp if they wait til the very last second to sign up. As for the advancement business, again I say you're creating more of a problem than there needs to be. If a kid is off doing his own thing, fine! Keep in mind that as boy scouts (which your Webelos are approaching with rapid speed), they will NOT be all working in a group on the same activities/advancements, directed and organized by adults. Start planning for that now so that it isn't a foreign concept to them (or their parents) when they join a troop. I loved being a WDL and I get that your heart is really in this. I commend you for it too. Just be careful not to take on responsibility for others' actions, or lack of timely actions. If they create the problem by their behavior, let THEM figure out how to solve it. As for the CM - I don't see why you couldn't tell him more or less what you've told us here. Not that it is highly likely to result in change.

While that seems a bit extreme, I would submit that a boy who made his stand over the vest probably was not emotionally ready for boy scouting anyway. The vest may have been his excuse, who knows. As for when to wear them, well I stand by the approach we took, which was pretty much anytime they wanted to. I have been told that boy scouts actually CAN wear the vests by the way, but I think most of ours wouldn't want to be caught dead in it - too "little boy." Some of our new scouts do wear them for a bit after cross over and that's fine (nobody tells them not to), but by about May (usually everybody has a boy scout uniform by then) it is rare to see the red vests at meetings anymore.

Nope, no "special rules" by virtue of being CM. Yes, our council allows last-minute registrations for just about anything as long as there's room, and usually with a late registration fee. No, I don't like to see people abuse that policy either though. I think it would be useful to frame it this way: Cub Scouts are asked to "help the pack go." The same is expected of cub leaders. People who habitually do this sort of thing are NOT helping the pack go and in fact may be causing problems for the pack down the line. (Or if this fellow was a boy scout, you can hit him with the scout law. Helpful? Courteous? Obedient? Thrifty?) Or if you really want to push his buttons, ask him what would happen if parents all waited until the first day of school to register their kids for kindergarten.

best wishes to him Dan, Ill keep you and your son in my thoughts. SW, I'm glad to hear all's ok.

I happen to really like those vests and we encouraged all of our cub scouts to wear them anywhere and everywhere they wanted to. If nothing else, they were excellent conversation starters. Adult: "I see you have an interesting patch here. How did you earn that one?" Proud Cub Scout: "Well....(long story to follow)." Add a beaming parent somewhere nearby, listening to their child's enthusiastic scouting story. Incidentally they also made for great media coverage.

OK so I've been following the various threads about advancement, scout spirit, etc., and I thought it might be interesting to ask this of all of you: What aspect(s) of the Scout Law and/or Oath do YOU find it hardest to live up to? Why? I think this is an entirely fair question for scouters to ponder, since we often put this question (or one like it) to our scouts. In fact I'm kind of surprised that no scout has yet asked that question to any adult leaders (at least, not that I know - maybe you've been on the receiving end before?). I'll answer too, but since I asked first I'm going to wait to give my response.

Eamonn, I have to agree that going back and trying to do the job again can be problematic on a number of levels and you're right that the temptation is not to bring in new faces (which is so hard, since it means you need to constantly be updating your pool to draw from). Here's what one fellow did after serving as district chair and council president. He "retired" and asked the new DC to appoint him to a committee where he could just help out from time to time - not run things. I'm so thankful, he ended up as a member of "my" committee. He has connections everywhere and will do most anything I ask him to do. Great guy, still really useful in his new role, still sometimes "training" me but only if I ask.

When reading stories like these, I count myself among the lucky. When I started getting involved in scouting as an adult leader, I found a good friend in our DE. He ended up doing a lot of things for our unit's leadership that really weren't in his job description (though at the time I did not realize they weren't his to do), because somebody needed to do them. Basically he acted like a really solid unit commissioner ought to act. I learned a lot from him about the ins and outs of how to get things done in our district and council. This fellow stuck with our district for close to a decade, so many scouters now active in units and in the district and council aspect of things, learned a lot of what they know from him. We now have a new DE. She's learning as she goes. She's probably learning more from her volunteers than from the other DEs, when it comes to getting people to do things and trying to manage other adult volunteers (which I think is really tricky under the best circumstances, and harder when the "manager" has no experience/knowledge, no local connections, and is 10+ years younger than most of the "workforce" to boot.) So the roles have reversed and here we are, teaching her what to ask, who to rely upon, and what to avoid like the plague. So far I'll grant that she is open to input and is certainly trying to do the job. I hope that continues.

Yeah ok, given additional details, I recommend you take your kid(s) and find a different pack that doesn't resemble fight night at the boxing ring. If Grandpa Cubmaster and Daddy CO aren't going to do anything about their little ruffians then don't expect that much of anything you do is likely to work. Bloody noses and squaring off? Enough's enough. (Actually I'd say these boys could be removed from the pack but reality is, it porbably won't happen with the CM and CO on their side). Don't bother trying to get the DE involved to "handle" things. It isn't the DE's job to deal with unit-level membership or behavior matters and s/he will just push it back onto the CO anyway. If you had a Unit Commissioner you might try that person, but again, with the CM and CO on the other side, I doubt you're likely to meet with success. ------------------ As for parental attendance at den meetings - no, it isn't strictly required past Tigers, but I know many den leaders who expect some or all parents to be in the periphery at least, especially for the younger cubs. Not to mention that den meetings are frequently short enough that it makes no sense for parents to go do much else anyway. An hour (or so) isn't a long time. There are a couple of additional questions that come to mind regarding whether den meetings are too unstructured, thus leading to too many opportunities for trouble, and why a Webelos and a Bear scout would be at den meetings together anyway? Look for a new pack where that wouldn't happen to begin with because dens meet separately.

Hi basement, In general, there is no place for fighting in scouting. But you already knew that. If I could ask a couple of clarifying questions - how old are these boys? What do you mean when you say they have been counseled? And where are their parents in these situations? Since this is in the cub forum I am supposing you're talking about cub-aged boys, and that means a parent/guardian should be nearby in most cases to step in if things are getting out of hand. If this is the case then make sure you are clear with parents about what is or is not acceptable and how/when you would like them to intervene. On the other hand if parents are just dropping them off at meetings then I think it is time to put an end to that and inform their parents that they need to stay with the boys. Further, that you can and will send boys home with parents if they are misbehaving and that if such behavior continues, that you will invite them to leave your den (you are the DL, right?). This is based on an assumption that the matter is really quite minor (though still not acceptable behavior), more a matter of overly physical/rambunctious kids not actually meaning to harm others, and not boys squaring off for fist fights or something along those lines. This assumption could be wrong - I'm just basing it on what I've seen of cub-aged boy behavior. So please clarify and/or correct if I'm making faulty assumptions, so that we may give you better advice.

ok to actually answer your question - no it does not matter when, during their time as webelos, they choose an emblem and a name. Ours could hardly wait and saw it as a way to distinguish themselves from the younger cubs. We used this, along with developing a new flag and yell, as a simple way to begin the slow transition from very much adult led cub scouting, to the more boy led flavor of boy scouting.