Laurie

Dave, how I wish one of the pros in the council I volunteer in would ask the question you pose, and do so with sincerity. Eamonn said much of what I feel. Our pack feels that it's very much on its own, and I personally try hard to be considerate and encouraging to our UC and DE, but it is often hard to do. Each actually said they didn't listen to me because they felt I was over-reacting and dramatic respectively. Last winter I became part of leadership, by the following spring I brought the following items to the attention of the UC and DE: 4 of 5 leaders were talking of leaving; families were unhappy with the program and leaders; CM was considering leaving; all leaders were untrained. It would have been nice to be taken seriously, rather than to be told not to worry as there really wasn't a problem. Then we lost over 30 boys over the summer. Though I was saddened at that loss, my hope was that it would get the attention of someone who could help us. No professional should be expected to go the extra mile IMO, and he certainly should not feel he needs to give out his home number. But a plea for help, with some specifics given, and a request for a response at "your earliest convenience" (I don't know the DE's schedule but do know him to be very busy and often on the road), shouldn't be asking too much. Or am I asking too much? p.s. We now have a new UC who is very supportive, but that came about by meeting the District Commissioner, who knew that this particular UC wanted our unit and that we wanted him--so that problem has been resolved. As for the DE, he now has 2 districts, and as much as I feel for his busy schedule, I fear we will have less help than before. It must be tough being a pro, but it's tough being a volunteer too, and I truly believe we can and should work together, not work in spite of one another.

Page 37 of the Guide to Safe Scouting (green cover--last year's issue, I believe), reads as follows: "Knives A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book" This is not in bold print, so it seems to fall into the guide category rather than policy. Could it be that since the sheath knife is not considered necessary for camping, that the troops that use this rule are erring on the side of caution? I'm curious to learn more from other responders, but I know our troop does not allow sheath knives, though I don't know the reason for that. The troop policy was in place when our son joined the troop.

Ah, fotoscout, laughter is a good thing Hey, I have reasons for saying warmth though. My son became a member of a troop that encourages short-sleeved Scout shirts so they can be worn year-round, in the winter with a long-sleeved shirt. Since they didn't specify the color of the shirt, I see a boy who regularly wears orange with his shirt (cringe!), and then there's the boy who doesn't button his shirt. And some of you think TUCKING in shirts is a problem? LOL! Seriously, it seems that they need to be told every detail. As for Cubs, I'm in agreement with all: those boys LOVE their uniforms and take great pride in them. As they get older, the tastes can sure get strange though. However, I remain uncomfortable with what appeared--in the first post--to be a singling out of one Scout.

Hmmm...sounds vaguely familiar in some aspects. My 2 cents, which is worth just about that , is to try the following: 1. Ask if the den you lead may lead the flag ceremony at a specific time/event. Say that the boys have expressed an interest in doing this. It should be received well, and it's not a criticism, just a request. 2. First, recognize that your den is actually there and available for clean up. That may be why they get asked: they are right there as others run off. Second, ask the CM or CC to ask the other DLs to recruit the help of their boys as well. All should be helping, and it helps everyone to head home sooner if many hands are busy. Plus, it keeps those running about out of trouble. 3. I personally like Gidget's advice for responding to the Advancement Chair. Why not just ask if you are doing something incorrectly? That way, you've provided an opening for a response, even a critical one, but you have not placed blame or complained. And try to have fun This past month for us was really tough, but when we had our first ceremony in years, and the boys AND parents loved it, it was well worth hanging in there to see that happen. Sometimes we just need to remind one another of that.

Thanks for all the advice and pointing me in the right direction. The DE now has the name of the troop COR, who is glad to serve the pack as well, understanding that there is one per CO. So all worked out well. As for the boys waiting on me. We're actually having a terrific time! They know me as the "awards lady" and make a point of letting me know what they are doing in their dens. We just had our first ceremony in years, and it went well. The pack is beginning to fill out its program rather than just getting by, and it's a privilege to be part of that. Thanks to all the Scouters here who helped us in this unit to make it work out well--in so many ways

Not pointing out what is wrong--do you get that from my post? If so, I apologize. Absolutely point out what is wrong...but NOT until they are told how to uniform correctly. I personally will have no problem taking a boy aside and pointing out he can improve his uniform once I know he is aware of how to wear it. I tell my sons all the time--neckerchief needs to be straightened, shirt needs to get tucked in, grab your hat...and wear if forward, shoes are untied, etc. They know how to wear their uniforms already, and we've worked on how to do so at home, long before I began to remind them what needs correcting.

FOG, I shouldn't laugh, but I did--your post did tickle my funny bone. I read the original message (also not knowing the source and not looking it up) as singling out one person. When I asked if the boy knew how to dress, I asked because I know that our Cubs don't. The past month, we have been reviewing proper uniforms in the den, and the boys want to do well, the parents want them to do well, but it does take a little time. There's the issue of money, time, and sewing on insignia. I do believe they will shortly be in uniform, correctly, but I also would not consider being negative in any way. We point out the positives. Interestingly enough, when we do that, other boys want to follow suit--and do.

I don't get that either, and in fact, it sounds as though it might serve to humiliate a boy. Sneakers: being untied--well, they should tie them. As for them being beat up, my son is constantly in need of new sneakers, but if someone would take issue with that, unless they are willing to buy new ones for us to put on his feet, I'd appreciate not having him judged in this way. His troop & troop leaders do not judge him, by the way. Uniforms: Does the boy even know how to dress? Is he aware of how to dress warmly and still remain well dressed? I did not see this post, so I am sure to be missing something, but I'd tread lightly in criticizing any boy's clothing until I knew he was at least aware of the correct way to dress. But that's just me.

My husband just went through his SM training, and he loved it. One of the first things they did was to divide into patrols. Then choose a patrol leader, patrol name, etc. He jokingly said sloth, and the other guys loved it. You never know with Scouts, huh? Even the big ones--lol! So, my husband comes home and asks me how to draw a sloth. Of course, I haven't heard the rest of the story yet, so I don't know why he's asking, and he has never asked me how to draw anything. Then he asks me how I might put that picture onto a patch, saying, "you know--kind of like a patrol patch". I'm trying not to bust a seam from laughing, because he's actually serious. He also wanted to know how to make a patrol flag. I did what I'd do with the boys (the smaller ones--hee hee), and tell him that his Scout Handbook has all that info. By the way, I'm just a committee member with my primary role being in the pack; he is Troop Adv. Chair and he's on every outing and at all troop meetings--he should KNOW this, right? He gets his handbook (yes, he had to have his own!), then goes on-line and finds a simple image, and he got into my craft stuff and made his entire patrol Sloth Patrol patrol patches. I don't how creative the name might be, but I do know from this--and from reading what you all have shared--that one never knows where that name might come from (This message has been edited by Laurie)

Thanks for the additional encouragements and advice. I'm not sure why anyone would think that I am worried at all; I'm not. The troop has many older boys then a bunch of newer younger boys. As for leaders, it's the same way--a bunch of seasoned leaders then several newer ones. My husband and I are both registered, he serving as Advancement Chairman now and currently heading away for Scoutmaster training. I am a committee member but also serve as CA for the pack our younger son is in. Scouting is super in that allows boys to advance at their own paces versus those Cubs at one rank per year. By the way, our son received his Tenderfoot at the recent COH, and he's well on his way to Second Class with many First Class requirements. Come February, his first full year, he will have reached First Class in that first year. We're all having fun, but he's just shining

I happen to have an 11-year-old, and I was excited to learn of something that he has been doing in the troop. He is teaching knots and the use of the handbook to all new boys; there's a tendency for new boys of varying ages to join year round. He is in a new boy patrol (all same age--our patrol system is under construction for older and older new boys), and he still is young enough and new enough to want and look up to the older boys for actual leadership positions. However, he is learning leadership skills by working in one particular area: that of helping new boys, some older than him, with knots and with learning to use their books. I think we need to be wise enough to notice the strengths all the boys have and to give them opportunities to help and train in small ways which can then grow into larger and broader leadership positions. It's a process, and unless I'm very much mistaken, this seems to be what the BSA provides our boys: the process of growing into young men of strong character. To answer the original question directly: the patrols of 11-year-olds have not been led by an 11-year-old. The patrol leader was chosen for this patrol before the boys bridged, but the goal is to have them chose their own leader eventually.

When our pack was preparing for its first campout this past summer, I knew of two smokers who were going. I privately spoke to each way in advance of the campout, letting them know that BSA policy does address smoking as does the camp we were attending. One had no problem with this, was glad just to know and to plan when and how to smoke--off camp property. The other reacted in a different way, stating that smoking would take place when and where he chose and noone would stop this leader. I said I wasn't trying to stop anyone, but that I'd sure hate to see anyone embarrassed at camp by being asked not to smoke due to not knowing the policy. I got a "humph" for an answer, but the following week I was thanked. There was no problem on the camping trip. On day trips, this hasn't been a problem, and the smokers wouldn't even think to light up during den meetings and pack meetings. It was a matter of giving them the knowledge--that's all. They've a right to know, and someone needed to tell them to avoid the very feelings chippewa29 expressed in the beginning of this thread.

The mom found him a new stick? To light up again? Wow, I hope that wasn't her intent. We are facing a similar problem, so I'm not offering help, just empathy. I'm looking forward to hearing other solutions though. Welcome to the forums! This is a great place for support, help, advice

A call to the nursing home might be helpful too. Often, residents have restrictions on what they may have for safety purposes. Last year, our boys all made cards using rubber stamps, markers, colored pencils, and then each wrote a note inside the card signing his first name. This was a hit! The boys from Tiger through Webelos II enjoyed making the cards, and they particularly enjoyed using the rubber stamps to make the images. I think it was new to them. I stressed to the boys to do their best and to think of what they would like a card to be like for them if it was the only one they got. They were amazed that some people had noone else but them to think of them, and they put their hearts into these cards. Have fun with it, whatever you choose, and bless you and those boys for reaching out to those often forgotten.

What time frame did the parent use? I think asking that is legimate, for simply asking if the program is understood doesn't deal with specifics. I find that no matter how many times a particular question about timing comes up, we still hear, "oh he did that a long time ago". The focus is on doing it now, and on doing his best. I often say, "That's fantastic! I look forward to seeing him earn these this year, maybe learning something new this time, and it would be great if he'd shares what he learns with the den." That said, my son is able to do challenging belt loops and pins in a relatively short time. He is the kind of kid that the teacher leaves extra work out for, so that when he finishes tasks ahead of the class, he can fill his time with other things (otherwise, his hands or mouth do what they shouldn't ). But in one month, that's a LOT of belt loops and pins--we've seen 3 or 4 belt loops by some boys in one month, and sometimes 1 or 2 pins. That's the high end of earning in our pack. Does your pack pay for all belt loops and pins earned? Not all do. The limits (if any) need to be clearly communicated. Another thought: is this family using this in home schooling? That would provide the time and opportunity to earn quite a bit. Just some thoughts Welcome to the forums!

Terry, I am sorry for the part I have played in those threads that have led you to a need for this reminder.

Ed, My opinion, short and sweet, is that abortion is murder. It is the taking of a human life. If a person is put to death for a crime, that is different in this way: the person committing the crime did wrong, whereas the unborn baby simply began to live. Is putting a criminal to death right? I'd like to say that if law supports it, then it must be right. The problem is that the law supports abortion, and I have never and will never believe that to be right. Laurie

The comparison of abortion to the death penalty is a tough one for me. Unless we can say that the new life is somehow deserving of a penalty, then to compare an unborn baby to a criminal is not comparing apples to apples. I have put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. Woman are smart and capable, and in deciding to make a woman's choice for her, we all sell her short. The choices began long before the pregnancy. The consequences last long after the abortion. Some women don't know they have help available. Some get kicked out of their homes. Some face discrimination issues. Most face financial difficulties. I gave financial help, clothing, layettes, diapers, food, found homes for women, gave references to legal aid (free legal aid), references to low-cost and free pre-natal care, and support. I will never support the act of abortion, but I will support the woman who felt it was only her choice or was lied to and found out later that it wasn't a simple procedure that would shortly be forgotten. In counseling, I learned some interesting things, and these are from the women *and* men who I met with face-to-face. Those who had abortions in the past and were now faced with continuing a pregnancy: I can't do this again. I had to have this baby so I could make up for the one I killed. I never forget the day of my baby's birthday...or what should have been his/her birthday. My boyfriend/fiance/husband left me because I had the abortion...but he said to have it or he would leave. In one case, I got permission to make a call home to a young woman's parents. She was contemplating suicide, gave me a specific date. The date was the date that her baby was to have been born. She had aborted. She is alive, married, has at least one child today--over 12 years after our meeting. From those who had abortions and called me later: I know you told me what was wrong about going through with it, but you also didn't judge me. I did it...I had the abortion. Now, I don't know what to do. It hurts more than I could have imagined. I can't believe I killed my baby. Will it ever stop hurting? From those who, against all odds and with little support, decided not to have the abortion: [with pride] Look at my baby! Thank you for helping me. I couldn't do it alone, and I couldn't afford help. You helped me at no cost. I am so glad I did this. I can't imagine life without this baby. Some reasons given at the decision making time: I will not give my baby up for adoption; I'd rather have it killed than raised by someone else. My parents will kill me. My boyfriend/fiance/husband will kill me. (Calling the police sometimes helped.) I don't have the money/time/desire/etc. to have a baby now. Interestingly enough, though these concerns are valid because the feelings are real, women choosing life often were not killed for doing so, were not thrown out of their homes, did find resources to get by. 12+ years later, I happen to know of some of these families who are doing just fine. I stopped counseling when I had my first child and because the emotional toll was high; I trained about 8 others counselors before leaving my position. They have had similar experiences. So, though I will speak up for the unborn and do all I can to protect that life, I recognize that the legal right to abortion has been provided to all women. Women deserve to know the risks (I know for a fact that not all clinics tell the risks), to have the chance to make a decision free of pressure, to have support in making a choice for life but freedom from condemnation for making what I believe to be a wrong choice. That isn't easy. It's far easier for me to hop on my soapbox and want to say that this is just wrong, wrong, wrong! But I have names, faces, stories to put to women facing this decision. I understand the pressures. I will add one more thing: there is, and this surprised me, a lack of support for women who choose life! In fact, I learned with my first of 3 high-risk pregancies of my own, that there is little support for life at all. When I had difficulty, the ER doctor suggested an immediate abortion for what might be a problem. I was considered a "problem patient" because I refused to sign consent forms allowing the procedure. Then, with my forcing the issue, I was given an ultrasound and learned that my baby was just fine. With my second, I was told I'd be better off just not bothering continuing the pregnancy. Why? From the medical professionals: "it will be too hard on you". What was hard was that I had to fight every step of the way for support for my children to be born. Capital punishment/death penalty: I tend to think that the death penalty isn't quite cruel enough considering what some criminals have done. I am still trying to reconcile that to my respect for all human life, and I can't do so very well. So, on this issue, though I once helped to free a boy who killed his own father (I can't imagine what 18-yr-old idealistic me was thinking!), I am not sure on this issue today.

Dave and Bob, Thank you again. This is now very alarming to me. I will take your advice and quietly proceed from here. Gentlemen, thanks for understanding and pointing me in the right direction. Laurie

Your frustration is coming through loud and clear, and though you don't seem to realize this, the Scouters here are listening to you carefully and trying to advise accordingly. You said, "I just wish my District Exectutive would come and talk to our Committee about letting the boys run the meetings." That got my attention. Who have you received JLT from? I would call that person, explain the situation (no names, just the type of things taking place) and ask again how to deal with it. Ask who exactly is to be your support person, and if it is the SM (I believe it is), and the SM is not providing the support, then find out who you go to next. Yes, please, do get help. One mark of a good leader is that he knows when to seek help. We all (I feel confident saying this--I've read every message to you) wish you the best and are routing for you and your entire troop to succeed.

Thank you, Bob. I had told him that the COR wasn't with the church and that meant we were without one. He did not seem concerned, but I'll follow up by asking him how we in the pack should handle applications in need of this signature. This particular issue is not unknown to our DE, Unit Commissioner, or the CO. It falls into the category of "we've always done it this way and it works". I'm considered an alarmist because I do ask if this will present us with problems at some point. Thank you for the advice and the caution.

Thank you! Since it seems councils do vary in handling this, I will ask at roundtable next week, just to be certain I'm in line with our council. This doesn't seem urgent, nor does it seem all that important, but in our efforts to maintain records, this was one item we just didn't know how to handle. You advice and time is much appreciated. Our CO is not involved at all. That bothers me somewhat since there is a space for adult leader forms asking for COR or IH signature. The CM said he has always signed as both CC and COR, so he did again this year too. We didn't have a CC until recently (except in name), and no COR either. How serious a problem is this? Or isn't it?

We had a registered Web II leader last year who is still registered until Feb 04 due to our charter dates. He has agreed to be on the Pack Committee. How does that get recorded, or doesn't it?

At the risk of sounding redundant, it sounds as though some training is in order. Maybe there has been some, but a refresher never hurts. In this case, maybe a meeting between you, the Quartermaster, and a third party who is more neutral could sit down and discuss roles more clearly. Though I am waiting on my own training now and have never been a Boy Scout, I would think that telling him the troop is his only family would be not the be the right thing to say. However, in his leadership position, he is to carry out the role he has as it is described in Scouting books. It would be fair to point out that going to his dad to fix a problem with you rather than coming to you directly would not be proper. The "chain of command", so to speak, should be reiterated too, and if he has a problem with you, he should know who to go to with that problem. Ideally, it would be someone other than his father. Likewise, you need to have an trusted leader to talk with for advice. I just don't think anything will be resolved though until you and he, with someone to monitor and aide your discussion, sit down and work through this. The health of your troop depends on this. That his father is the ASM really does not matter. That his mother is married to an ASM does not matter. That you are a SPL does matter; that he is Quartermaster does matter. Now, how do you work together for the sake of the troop? You've quite a challenge ahead of you, but I do believe that working through this will help you to become stronger and more capable in future decisions and in future relationships. Like it or not, this is the kind of stuff that helps define who we are--that helps us to learn life lessons that are very valuable. Best wishes to you, and please keep us posted.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

It isn't just the Scout who needs to know how to define class A and class B. When our son joined the troop he's now active in, we were given a packet of information. It stated that class A uniform was to be worn for all outings and ceremonies. I asked what a class A uniform was. Neither the Scoutmaster nor the Comm Chair chould answer that. They did tell me it was how the boys were currently dressed, and that happened to be uniform shirt with insignia with varying styles and colors of pants. That was 6 months ago. Since then, the permission slips no longer state class A uniform. It is now "full uniform" as in uniform shirt, belt, uniform pants (or pants resembling the uniform pants). The hats and neckerchiefs are rarely worn, though we were required to buy a hat. Bottom line: if the troop is confused, the boy will be confused, and the family won't care to purchase items that may not be needed. I like the uniform, encourage the uniform, but don't understand why a "uniform" uniform policy couldn't be easily adopted. gbern--To answer your question, first, have they been encouraged to wear the uniform? They may be waiting to be told what to do.