Laurie

I've been hoping that as we kick off our new year and get more active that I could contribute to such a positive thread I can--yippee!! Our den leaders were getting tired last year, and they just needed some help and encouragement. One way to get help was to get a den chief. During the summer, one of our Cub siblings, a Boy Scout in a local troop, was helping with activities. He is quiet--so quiet you'd not know he was around, even if right next to him! However, he treated adults and younger boys with respect, was willing to help in any way he could, and just had this way about him that made me wonder if he'd be interested in becoming den chief. I asked the Scoutmaster if it would be ok to request this young man, and he said yes. So I did, and the SM approved his new role, and he received his den chief patch and cord at the Troop Court of Honor this past weekend. He has helped with two den meetings, and I was around doing other things at the same place at the same time. I was amazed last night. There were 5 boys, one brand new, and they were having a ball--not too rowdy (other groups meeting there too), but happy and active. They look up to this young man, and he loves his position. He approached me after the meeting to see how else he could help. Over the summer, he could not talk to me unless I approached him first. It's those small steps toward confidence that I'm thrilled to witness. From all accounts, it came as a suprise that I'd want this particular boy as a leader, for noone had ever thought of him as such. Our Cubs--all the Cubs, not just the den he's in--call him "our Boy Scout". I love that! Last night something else happened. One of our 8-yr-old Cubs came over to me while I was talking to a new Cub and his dad. He looked at the boy and said hi. I asked him if he'd like to introduce himself (ready to help him with this if he was uncomfortable, but he seemed ok with it), and he not only introduced himself, but he led this boy into the den and introduced them to the other boys. It was just a great thing to see--that warm welcome. Surprisingly, this came from a boy who is so active that I think this is the first time I've seen him STILL It's been a frustrating month, but it's those things--not huge, not noticeable to many--that make it all worthwhile. The privilege to see a boy's growth, to even be part of that--wow!

I agree with ozemu--show your son your post. Your feelings for your son and the way you expressed them are very touching, and it would be a shame for him not to hear what you just told all of us. As for being dumb or lazy: it was rude of anyone to say such things of you. You are being a supportive loving father who would like your son to make his own decisions, and you'll love him spite of the decisions he makes. That is hard to do, and it takes work to build the kind of relationship you appear to have with him. I wish you well.

I think your honesty and your willingness to evaluate your actions is refreshing and will serve you well. This will not be the last time you have this type of issue though, so perhaps it would be a good time to review how to address those tough issues--maybe some role play in your patrol leader meetings? Part of the problem, if I am understanding you correctly, is that you have a history with this woman. Right now is the time to sort through what is your dislike of her due to history and what is her true problem with her right now in the troop. She's a mom, not a leader, but she shouldn't be excluded from everything. So, now that you're stuck with her (for lack of a better way to say that ), how will you personally put the history behind you and focus on how best to work with her now? You are getting good advice, and you are demonstrating maturity. Good for you!

This is sad, very sad. I am part of this council, and I am glad to be. However, every time a thread begins in discussion of the politics and policies regarding this council, it turns to talk of pedophilia, NAMBLA, and the like. This is NOT what the Cradle of Liberty Council is. It is more than an issue, more than a hot potato in the world of politics right now. It is made up of people--of the boy who doesn't seem to quite "get it" in school but is always a winner in a program designed for success, of the boy who learns to reach out to another when he used to be too timid to do so, of the little boy caught up in a custody battle who finds a fun and safe place to escape that battle for awhile each week, of the dad who didn't realize how much fun it could be to spend with his son until he became a leader and got to work side by side with him, of the little boy facing cancer or the little one facing the loss of a parent who gets a bit of normalcy in the den setting. It is made up of these people, each one that I could put a name to, and they are a part of the BSA because they like the program. THAT is what Cradle of Liberty is. Sorry for sounding preachy here, but the thing is, this council has faces that I see. It's far more than an "issue". And I just can't help but feel terribly sad about the way it is now seen.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

FOG: Yes, we lost that many. Some quit during the year last year, but no records were kept, so we're not sure who and when. We had one trained leader, the CM, and he was completely unaware there was training available or a Cub Scout Leader Handbook. We did not present awards at every pack meeting--only at the Blue and Gold. We did not plan on a summer program, but instead threw it together at the end of the school year. So, the way I see it, we kept those families who really wanted to be part of Cubs, and those who weren't interested or were trying to figure how to prioritize activitie didn't see enough excitement to stay with Cubs. That sounds harsh, I know, but it's where we're at, and I'm hoping that we can promote our events now--before and after--and regain those boys who truly want to be part of the pack. My goal is to win over the parents right now, so I've a stack of really nice brochures to pass around. It's doable, but we have to prove we're worth being part of. All leaders but one were going to quit, but over the summer I spent a lot of time with them. All but one stayed with us, and 3 new leaders were recruited. All are interested in training with most signed up already. So, it's disappointing, but it should not come as a surprise. Apparently, though I'm sold on this pack and Cubs in general, and I can talk it up, I was the only one that was not surprised at the low turnout. I'm reading this thread with interest; there are good ideas here.

To my knowledge, the troop my son is in does not recruit. However, there have been many new boys over the past few months. Someone is talking up the troop As for our pack, our DE gave us a goal of 25 more Cubs than last year. Last year, with fliers alone and late at that, the pack went from 19 boys to 45, with most of the boys in all ranks being brand new to Cubs. This year we promoted more, but we only had 2 new boys at our roundup, and we had 13 boys return. We know of three others who are interested, but that is it. (This message has been edited by Laurie)

Thank you for clarifying Eamonn. I thought I might have misunderstood, and I did.

"As for any adult picking on a Scout. This is plain Bull." Eamonn, you don't agree that the leader was picking on the Scout when he did a SM minute that addressed the issue?

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

I agree with CubsRgr8. That was over the top. Taking the boy aside and pointing out his verbal commitment and how it effected others would have been ok--a teaching moment. But this was public humiliation As for the money issue. The troop my son is in doesn't count anyone as going, whether it costs $10 or $200, unless they have a signed permission slip and payment or have made financial arrangements. The boys are given reminders at the closing of the meeting that if going, they need to get their permission slip in by the deadline. This avoids all sorts of problems, and I'm surprised that with a trip this big, the communication wasn't better.

In our pack, this has been a problem, but it wasn't revealed until I learned that our Webelos II den did not know how to use their handbooks. Ouch! In talking with the den leader, I learned that he did not know how to use the handbook. So, I spent time with the parents and their sons, showing them how to use the book. I was not given any training in this, nor is there anything special about me, but my oldest son had 6 months from joining to Arrow of Light, and he wanted to earn Arrow of Light. I practically memorized the book, trying to understand this all myself, for it made clear that he was on his own with my help. I have since learned that other parents in other dens don't understand the book either. However, with EVERY one of them, when I sat with them, took an advancement or activity badge and worked through it with them, they saw how this helped their son, and their son saw HE could track what he is doing, and the end result was that the entire families are fired up about those books now. Educate the parents, not just the boys. Good luck! It takes time, but it's time well spent when the boys begin to get hooked on Cub advancements

That is wonderful to hear! I saw a "Good Turn" patch in the Scout Shop, and maybe this, along with a certificate praising the particular character connection put into practice would be something the boys would like. I just love your idea of recognizing them at a pack meeting.

Thanks so much for the den number help. I've been told that we simply assign new numbers to dens each year, but that would wreak havoc with record keeping, though that's behind the scenes so it's unknown to the den leaders. Patrol names apparently work the same way, but they'll keep their number too--just get to wear cooler patches As for PackMaster, I'm issuing a standing invitation Anyone with tips, pointers, etc., I will welcome them. TIA!

Would it be inappropriate to direct parents to the cubmaster with their concerns? If he doesn't see it, isn't aware of it, then he can't fix it. Just a thought.

I have a copy of Packmaster, and though I read the instructions--most of them, I got somewhat lost--I have a couple of questions I was hoping someone could help with. First, how are den numbers assigned? If we used 1 for Tigers, 2 for Wolf, 3 for Bear, etc., would we now need to use 1 for Wolf, 2 Bear, and assign a new number to Tigers? These numbers didn't seem all that important until I began to set up Packmaster. One of our Webelos dens wants to use patrol patches as opposed to numbers. Does this replace a den number, or is it in addition to a den number? We are going from no records but financial to finally having records, and though I've done records in other non-profits, this Packmaster does not seem easy. Any guidance, tips, etc. would be greatly appreciated. TIA!

Thank you for clarifying. So, to be safe, I guess we should just use a local tour permit on any outing that doesn't require a national tour permit. By the way, I think *this* is how committees should work: working through understanding something by going back and forth in a friendly manner to come to an understanding, and the end result is that we've done all that is required in order to free the boys up to have a super time

Actually, I'm not through with this. At a den meeting, with the den leader's permission, I'll follow up on this. Yes, something is off, and I also don't think I'm getting the whole story. What I'd like to do is ask him what he wanted to speak to me about and how his "fundraiser" is going. He'll then know that I *did* get a message that he was there. The observations made about this boy in the short time he's been involved are that he appears slow, isn't very skilled in social graces, lacks supervision, lacks support. He's also a really big kid, and his best friend, who invited him along, isn't very nice to him. It's truly a sad thing from all appearances, and I still feed I need to use caution, but I also appreciate your direction here. I'm beginning to see the opportunity--thanks for that. Please wish us well. The one thing I love best about our group of leaders is that they--and I--all sincerely care about our boys. If this is adult abuse as Dave put it, that's ok. I can handle that. If it's a kid in need of support who has a parent giving signed permission to the pack for him to continue to attend, he'll have a ton of support. It also seems we are all in agreement that it would be a good thing to meet the parent(s). We'll see what we can do--a phone call to invite them seems the right thing at this time. Thanks again!(This message has been edited by Laurie)

In the very first paragraph of the tour permit is a statement in parenthesis that council camps don't require a permit. Our council issues a statement in our program guide (the council calendar--not sure if the name varies by council) that local tour permits are only needed when traveling outside the council boundaries. I questioned that, for the tour permit does not seem to allow that much leeway. We did not used to file these before, but I'm one might cause a headache for I have brought this issue before our committee. Interesting thing happened: a discussion on all the ways to avoid using it ensued. I just shake my head at that, for I don't get it. Since either the committee chair or I would be happy to fill out, sign, and handle this form, noone was asked to do anything other than give 2 week's notice of an outing. We'll see how this works out as the year progresses.

I truly couldn't come to the door when he arrived. I did some looking into this--wasn't prepared to let it drop altogether. He was looking for money for an x-box. He asked my older son for some too. Um, no. The point remains though. What to do with a Cub who shows up at the door? There is the concern that noone, not even the den leader or the neighbor who brings the boy to meetings, knows the parents. Would it be appropriate to invite the parent(s) to a meeting to re-register their son? It is time for him to do so, and it seems a reasonable request, but is it necessary? FOG, you bring up an excellent point. How am I to be available but responsible? NJ, thank you for clarifying two-deep and one-on-one. My lack of training (I've had the on-line stuff but that's it) is showing. To all, thank you. I could help a boy outside, weather permitting and if the baby were cooperating, and I feel like a heel now that I've read your post, FOG. But I've been there, done that, and have had some parents show resentment (their kids came to me for help & it was not related to scouts). It isn't easy to help out these days, and in the den/pack setting, it's "safe", but outside of that, it's a little unsettling.

We sent an application home with him, telling him that he and his parents should bring it back with the fee. Instead, he came back to the meeting, with a completed app signed by a parent, and with the neighbor, who then paid his fee since he forgot it. It is odd to begin with. He was told which den, has been to that den, knows that leader, though the parents have never been met by anyone. I've no objection to his parents calling me if there is a concern, but first, I'm not his den leader (and I'd refer them to him), and second, I won't welcome a Cub to my home without his parent.

My son answered the door to a boy who just showed up looking for me. He's a newly registered Cub, registered by a neighbor of his, not even his family, so his family does not know me. I asked my son to please tell him I'm unable to answer the door (the truth), and to ask him if he'd like to leave a message. He did not. He was accompanied by a Boy Scout, and I do not know his family either. It's easy enough to learn where I live because of my boys, but I practice the idea of two-deep leadership outside the meeting place too. This made me distinctly uncomfortable as I don't think the boys should come to my home. Am I wrong? How should I handle that? TIA!

Yes, we have a committee chairman--first time in years that we've had one. The committee is the Cubmaster, me, our treasurer, and the den leaders. I like the school meeting idea, but we may not be allowed to do that. Fliers met with resistance. The leaders had some ideas, plenty of opportunity before now to share them, but last night got everyone who wasn't thinking of how to recruit to do so now. The creative juices are flowing! We have all the fun stuff, and in fact, we've double that. Instead of 2 activities a year, we have monthly activities planned (Scouting for Food, Pinewood Derby, picnic, campfire sing-a-long, etc). Some have costs; most don't; all are encouraged but optional and put into the calendar with care. I think we've got a good program in place. What we didn't have was boy input (I had hoped for it and the boys were willing) and props. We'll work that angle. Several boys left talking about which friends they were going to invite, and they know I like to give awards, so they'll be sure to keep me posted on what they do. They don't know what I have planned (the recruiter patch and a certificate), but they want something, and know that I've got something in the works. They're a great group of boys

Yes, we've been meeting a lot this summer, sometimes as a pack, and in other cases leader meetings or continued den meetings. Of the 17, only 2 are new. We decided to try to have new and existing Cubs this year because our current families really don't know what Cubs is. So this was a very important meeting to our leadership, and our leaders were ready and excited. In fact, the one good thing to come of this is that our leaders were just amazing. Last year, only the CM wore a uniform. Now 3 more leaders are in uniform. Last year was the first time we bridged Webelos in 3 years. We bridged 7; 5 have stayed with the troop. This year we plan to bridge all 6, and they're excited. Last year the pack meetings didn't feature the Cubs at all; this year they are the focus. Last year there was one trained leader, but his training wasn't recent. This year all leaders want to get trained. I truly believe that when changes like this take place, we will see growth--in the boys, in the leaders, in families, even if not in numbers. The thing is that we have children from 6 different schools, 4 of them very large public schools. We were all surprised at the turnout, but only the 2 of us new to roundup were disappointed with our organization the night of roundup. So, there's some good. We'll do our best in every way whether we have a small group or large group; we're just concerned at such a big drop. And we have never done school meetings. Just roundup with fliers sent out the week of it. Our DE is now going to get involved. He's concerned too.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

I'll second DSteele's post. You'll be in my prayers.

Last night we had roundup. Fliers went out late, but we advertised on tv for a full month, called existing families, and had recruiting going on in many different ways. We had 46 boys in the pack this past year. We had maybe 12 last night; I'm not sure where our roster got to. Only 2 are new. We've got 2 Tigers, no Wolf Cubs, 3 Bear Cubs, 6 Webelos Is, and 6 Webelos II. We had 17 total there; I can picture these kids and recall all of them. Now, I'm not into numbers, but I am concerned. We dropped boys, a lot of them, unless they come back as the month progresses. In previous years, there was little recruiting. The dens all had leaders, and there were boys to go into those dens--except for Webelos. We'd been losing a lot of kids at the Webelos level and hadn't bridged any for 3 years. I'm still new enough to know that something seems wrong here but to be unsure of what to do about it. When I say "I", any info I get is shared with my fellow leaders. Our DE was there, and he said we'll have a second roundup. The actual night seemed, to put it bluntly, a disaster to me. However, every leader who had done this last year said it was a big improvement and that they were actually happy with how the night went. That suprised me. The Cubmaster, who I like very much and has truly kept the pack going, clearly was not prepared (he asked for and was given a typed agenda by me), so that didn't go well. He didn't know what ranks were in what order, and that suprised me, and it saddened me. He likes the way things are because he says "we've always done it this way", and even when that way has no foundation (can't find in any of the scouting books, training, etc), he says we can't change it. I feel very torn between supporting our Cubmaster and supporting the program/boys; it seems that doing would should take care of the other. Thanks for listening. It's been a rough month, lots of traveling to distribute materials and things, lots of phone and e-mail contact work, and so on. And now I'm concerned for our pack. Your ideas, suggestions, advice, and your friendly ear--it's all welcome