Laurie

FOG asked, "It's in the handbook, isn't it" relating to knowing what to pack. It sure is, but regardless of how many times I tell my son it's there, he usually won't bother with that page. He did, however, when he was asked to show a new and older Scout how to use his handbook. When they came home from camping, my son points out the page on how to pack to me--lol! He's just 11 and not in Scouting for a year yet, so he's learning and I'm not worried about this as an issue for him. What was neat to see was his motivation: needing to know to help out someone else This is what I love about Scouting.

In response to your first question (I'm backwards ) ... In the Bear Handbook, page 20 in the old book & page 23 in the new book, the cap is mentioned as one of the parts of the uniform. In the Cub Scout Leader Handbook, page 12-2, the cap is listed as part of the uniform. On the uniform inspection sheet, which you can view on-line at http://scoutstuff.org/ under uniforms, the cap is listed as part of the uniform. It is not listed as optional in any of these resources. I hope this helps. Welcome to the forums!

In response to question #2, here is a reference (an excellent resource which I highly recommend and refer to often) in response. From the book Your Flag, Everything You Want to Know About the Flag of the United States of America by the Boy Scouts of America... Page 33: Saluting When in uniform, with your head covered or uncovered, either indoors or outdoors, stand at attention and salute with your right hand when *The national anthem is played. *The colors are raised or lowered. *Reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance. * The flag pases by in a parade or review. *A flag-draped coffin is passing. *"Taps" is sounded at a funeral. When not in uniform, stand at attention and place your right hand over your heart. A man wearing a hat should remove his hat with his right hand and hold it at his left shoulder, with his hand over his heart. In athletic costume, remove hat or helmet and stand at attention. Hold hat or helmet in right hand." Page 45: Carrying the Colors Into Buildings Color guards, if wearing hats or caps, do not remove them when carrying the colors until they are seated, even if the building is a house of worship.

Happy Birthday Dave!!! May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, The sun shine warm upon your face, The rain soft upon your fields, And day by day throughout the year May God hold you in the palm of His hand. Warmest regards for a wonderful day, Laurie (disclaimer: I edited a line--I know we have critics on board )

I'd find out why mom packs. The boy should know how and should do it himself. It's a great skill, is a way to be independent, and if he can't pack to go, how does he pack to come home? Has the troop taught the boys how to pack for camp, or has he gone through a merit badge that addresses it? Is he so busy with school and school activities that his time is limited enough that he asks his mom or that his mom offers? Unless he needs to know and practice packing for advancement, I can't imagine there's a reason to deny advancement, but I think it's a great opportunity to encourage him to begin doing this on his own. Let us know how it goes please.

This type of language... Would it be appropriate during a job interview? How might an employer respond to a prospective employee who spoke to him as Gags' Scout spoke to his mother? Would it help or hinder in securing the job? What about in a book report or other type of school project? How would this language effect the grade? Would it help--if so how? Would it hinder--if so how? A girlfriend or sister. How would you feel if someone were to talk to your girlfriend and/or sister this way? My own boys are too young for girlfriends (today at least ), but they have a little sister, and I have noticed they are extremely protective of her. They think about what they do around her, and they carefully watch others around her--more so than in any other setting. How does this language fit in with the Scout Law, Oath, Promise? If it is acceptable elsewhere, ok, we understand that. It is--I doubt any of would argue that there are places where cursing is accepted and considered normal. So, now bring it back to Scouting. I would challenge any boy to try to reconcile his choice of language with Scouting; it would at least get them to think. Now, I had a chance to substitute for a first-grade class. A boy said the "f" word. I asked him to please not use that word again, and he asked why not--his father always said it. I said that was between him and his father, but while in the classroom, all students were expected to try to use only kinder words. What an eye-opener! So, maybe, just maybe, using the types of situations where appearance, language, body language, etc. count would help them to see that they are indeed juddged by their choice of words and that they do matter. This is how my husband and I brought up our children, with the understanding that choices--in language as well as other areas--need to be made in order to shape reputations. Good luck, and please let us know how tonight's meeting goes!

"i know who hear is moderate, who hear are bible thumpers, or more accuratly handbook thumpers, i have a pretty good idea who has gone through woodbadge robot production and who is simply there for the boys...in closing i have found that this page is dominated by handbook thumpers it seems and it perhaps would be a great resource if i want to know what regulation C217-B8-2D is, but i can call the council office for that, as a source for unique opinions on what policy ought to be there seems to be little if any use to post on hear unless perhaps you can ban BobW, OGE and FOG, not saying that you should just that the three simply quote regs, im sure all are highly involved in the adult leader robot program" Wow, so a person who relies on the handbooks and the program as it is, who is willing to deliver the program the boys signed up for--that person is NOT in it for the boys? What you have described is cheating the boys. To try to find someone who agrees will not make it any less so. To be proud of leadership that is inconsistent with what the BSA promises to deliver and to which the leaders pledge to deliver is to show contempt for the BSA and the boys hoping to advance within the program. It is shameful. The thoughts and ideas are not; the blatant practice of what is known to be against BSA policy is. What I THINK the minimum age for Eagle should be is this: when a boy has met the requirements, fairly and thoroughly, that is when I think he should earn it. To hold a boy back is wrong when he has met the requirements, and quite frankly I can see no reason to do so. To hold a boy back for incomplete requirements is appropriate. To have a boy denied Eagle--or any rank for that matter--is a disgrace if the troop has held him back and used other methods that violate BSA policy. My apologies to all if this response sounds unkind, but quite frankly, the practices mentioned here anger me.

If the Scout Oath and Law are followed along the way to the end result, then no justification would be needed. I'm assuming (a dangerous thing, I know ) that you are referring to a Scout-related issue?

Twocubdad: you bring up a point that I agree with. A unit might look good on paper, but is it truly healthy? How would one know? I know of 2 units that would not be labeled healthy if they were to be evaluated by a personal visit and by meeting the boys; however, on paper they look fine and dandy. (They are not the two units in my profile, by the way ) So, does this fall under the UC job description, or is it up to the unit to evaluate itself? I ask, not of idle curiosity, but because one of our units has has problems and we have felt very alone in working them out--in spite of asking for help. After a year of working at it, we've got a new UC, but how now to use him without overburdening him?

As a parent learning the ropes ... Both troops have numerous adults, so I'd see who is trained and bring training opportunities to the SM's attention. With Troop A's only recent advancement that of Tenderfoot, and with several boys not advancing, this unit appears to be in danger of folding. Would SM conferences and boards of review be helpful at this time? My concern would be the meetings (content), the training (who is and in what areas--outdoor training for those camping trips might be beneficial in adding to advancement during the trips), and if the leaders understand their roles. One of the good things about several leaders would seem to be that among them are those who could become stronger and help lead even a few boys into planning advancement opportunities. I did have a long list of questions, and they were prompted by a unit I was involved with that had several red flags and was in danger of folding. Training and meeting content changed, and the numbers and advancements are now climbing. Troop B does concern me in that there are so many adults. It was brought to my attention that this is not against policy, but I still would like to know if the committee members are active and trained. The unit seems healthy. This would be a unit to encourage, in my opinion, to keep up the good work. Bob, thank you for your message (This message has been edited by Laurie)

The first thing I thought of was our service men and women. My hope is that this will smooth the way for a faster return home for all.

I tried responding twice, but each time my computer crashed! If you did not receive the private message, please let me know. I did type up and send what is included on the leader app. The other option you have is to simply ask your unit for an leader app so you can read that page. It's short, and really, all info in it has already been touched on right here. Regards, Laurie (who is keeping fingers crossed that I don't crash again as I post send!) p.s. Our roundup was chaotic too, and I remember coming home feeling like it lasted a looooong time. And with all our planning, we did forget to give back some leader pages too Check out the forums here; roundup is a topic covered as well as many other parts of the pack program. Good luck!(This message has been edited by Laurie)

You didn't start a holy war at all--if I made you feel uncomfortable with my response, I apologize. The declaration of religious principle (I think I got the name right--I tend to mess up the exact wording) is on the inside cover of the adult application. If you don't have that handy, let me know and I'll send it to you. I'll say it again: I commend you for doing this with your son. That is key to any requirement in Cubs--families spending time together

Oh my! No offense taken, Dave, and thank you for catching that. I did indeed mean "not optional".

I stand corrected. My comment may have sounded like a put-down; for that I am sorry. I was thinking of the unit and admit to often not thinking of meetings outside it. I too am very thankful that people I have never met and may never meet are working hard to see to it that Scouting takes place for my boys. Thanks for the reminder in that, Dave. By the way, my DE wouldn't know my kids if he tripped over them--he sees so many. They, however, know him and think "he's really cool when it comes to camping stuff" I think I need to write him a nice Christmas card, letting him know that what he does is having a positive impact on my boys.

DenLeaderDad, Welcome to these forums! You don't need to answer me, but do ask yourself this: how do you define God? How do you define your belief in God? As a leader, you signed an application, and in doing that, you have agreed that you believe in God. That will be defined differently by different people and different faiths; the BSA has allowed for the differences though it does allow for God to be optional. The important thing is to first be able to define God for yourself; they you will be better able to help your son. As for the specific requirement, I'd have to look at it, but I've got 3 kids asking me questions at the moment I commend you for seeking a better understanding for your son's sake, especially when this is a tough area for you.

This is a hard week related to Cubs, but Barry, you made me laugh. Yep, the adults do have a way of making things far tougher than they need to be...sigh... Eamonn, I'm so glad for the lift you were given by this young Scout Campfire Fairy, when I was a Girl Scout, it was as much fun as my boys are having today. I absolutely loved the camping opportunities. Things seemed to have changed, so I'm glad you have found your place in Venturers By the way, I have decided that "real Scouting" never ever involves a committee meeting--eek! Unless we get the boys to lead the committee meetings? Hmmmmm...

Eamonn, what a tough situation, and how I feel for you in this. I wonder if this is what often brings up the "us and them" thing with volunteers and pros (no offense to pros--I happen to respect Dave tremendously as well as many pros in my own council). It seems as though the challenges are different though. The council offices need to bring in funds and need to deal with the numbers, including membership. Those volunteering are focusing more on program, on individual units, even on individuals (leaders or youth). Ideally, the two should complement one another. In this case, it seems that they butt heads. Sadly, as I begin to understand the numbers game, which my own DE told me is very important to him and all in the office--and he explained why, I also see where it has the potential to create the problem faced now. I can also see that I should have been more willing to actively recruit more in order to help my DE and the district and council as a whole. However, this situation just stinks. It does sound unethical, and Eamonn, you seem to care deeply about people first, numbers second. Keep that up, and I hope to hear that things worked out well--and without getting too nasty.

DaveJ, knots really are so much easier and so much more fun to discuss I personally like the Totin' Chip and Fireman Chit. No formal sex ed it allowed in the Scouting program, so I'm not sure what the permission slip would be for. If a SM or adult leader were to stick with what is in the Scout Handbook (which does address sex), then it would seem the parents have already given permission for that much of a talk. They signed the application for the program, and the program includes those two distinctly uncomfortable pages. All that said, everyone seems in agreement to keep parents involved, not to try to take their place. The sad fact (it's sad to me anyway) is that these days sex is a topic of discussion--and more--at a very early age. To ignore it doesn't do justice to the boys. The BSA felt it was important enough to address, so it does have a place in the program. I like Eamonn's approach to this in his most recent post: it's not sex that's so big an issue as it the teaching of respect and honor before ever needing to discuss sex itself. Now those two thought--they are what I always have thought of in connection with Scouting. You bring up a good point about inpropriety though. The thing is that I know of that type of problem with language, bullying, etc. and how those issues get handled. None of this easy, but we must all agree it's worth it anyway--because here we are. By the way, your name is new to me, so welcome to the forums!(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Welcome to the forums. I'm not a veteran leader, but I've been serving as Assistant Cubmaster for almost a year now. Here's my take on the CM position, and if I'm wrong, I trust that others here will correct me: My personal opinion is that all that we as leaders do is for the benefit of the boys. It seems as though this CM feels the program is about him. It is not. He is a significant part of it, and he does his job well, it is the boys that will be seen and acknowledged the most. In the Cub Scout Leader Handbook, I read this: "Everything that the Cubmaster does is aimed at helping the individual boy. Securing strong leaders, planning den and pack activities, advising other leaders and adult family members--these are all ways in which the Cubmaster affects the kind of Cub Scouting each boy in the pack is offered. The Cubmaster directly influences the lives of individual boys by keeping in mind that boys can become better through Cub Scouting." In no way does this indicate that the CM should be the focus of anything. In my opinion, when the CM does his/her job well, the decorations, props, etc. won't be nearly as significant as the pride the boys take in a job well done, as the cheering provided the boys as they learn new skills and get to show them off, at the many ways in which the boys' accomplishments and efforts are showcased. I might one day be CM, and my hope is that in doing my job, I will fade into the background as the boys are up front doing whatever they might be doing at a particular meeting, including the B & G.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Eamonn said: "Most of what I have heard is stuff that I wasn't supposed to. Am I happy taking no notice? No not really." I wonder if this is something that would be appropriate to address with a SM minute? Maybe ask the SPL and PLs if they are concerned about topics of conversation or feel that the troop is ok in that area. I'm not sure if this appropriate, because I've much to learn about the mechanics of a troop. However, there must be a way to address topics of conversation without pointing a finger at one boy. Also, what about other leaders? Could they address this if more comfortable with doing so than you? It would be honest and fair to address a group or individual in this manner, "I am not comfortable talking about this, but I am not comfortable ignoring what I overhear either", and then briefly addressing the issues you hear about and encouraging the Scouts to reconsider their Scout Oath and Law and Promise. Does their topic of conversation fit into this? If not, maybe they should reconsider it. If I am way out of line here, please correct me. I am actually the opposite of Eamonnn. When I hear something inappropriate, I often have to reign myself in--for I immediately want to tackle the issue However, bit by bit, at the Cub level, I have been encouraging the den leaders to encourage their dens to think about what is right--in action, in speech, in what they expose themselves to (cable TV offers a tempting variety of stuff to all, especially the young and impressionable). Doing this leads so some exciting things--like a foul-mouthed child who begins to catch and correct his own language. Like a boy prone to bully who reaches a hand out and then stops himself--or another boy reminds him it is wrong and stops him. KS, thank you for saying so well about porn what I thought but could not put into words myself. There is not, IMO, anything redeeming about it. As a former counselor, I learned that many relationships have their root problems in porn of some type. Thank you all for a thought-provoking discussion that could have been awkward and heated but has remained helpful and civil.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

I'd ask him why he left. I have asked why to a few boys, or I know of instances where other leaders have asked. In Cubs, we had a situation that was bullying, and that prompted my son to want to leave--and he loves Cubs. So, bit by bit, I addressed the issue with the appropriate people, and he has remained and is happy. I know of boys who left (in the past year) the troop or pack because: (1) sports was more important, (2) family obligations, (3) bullying (all of which has been resolved), (4) leadership (resolved), (5) boredom (working on that). If the boy gives a reason for leaving that is not related to Scouts, then it's out of your hands. If it a reason that involves the pack/troop, it needs to somehow be addressed. What his reason is will have much to do with how you respond. Eamonn, good luck working this out.

Eamonn, from all you say here on the boards, it is clear you understand Scouting. I like learning from you. I've a question for you. In a troop setting, does Ethics in Action still take place? Does any type of discussion on issues, character, etc. take place? In the troop my son attends, this does not happen, but that's one troop. As we gather around this high-tech campfire, I wonder if we can all help one another to learn how to encourage boys to make good decisions leading to good decisions in sex--and to do so in keeping with the program. The books are missing out on the "how-tos" of this. To go back to that first post, if a boy were to announce he was heading off to get condoms, that would be the time to gently ask him to consider his decisions carefully, to question if he should handle decisions in this setting the same as if he were at home. Do the consequences change just because the setting does? That would not be a fun talk, but it would be an opportunity. (This message has been edited by Laurie)

I've been reading up on a few things, looking for one thing but coming across a bunch of others. In this reading, I came across this: Rules and Regulations of the Boys Scouts of America copyright 1976 revised June 2001 Article VII. Youth Members Section 1. Active Clause 1. An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age, as promulgated from time to time by the Boy Scouts of America. *** Pamaha, welcome! I don't know if this definition helps you or not. I don't know how each unit would define "regularly" or "obligations", and I am just beginning to learn about the troop. Good luck in working this all out. As far as the "paper" resources go, if you don't yet have a copy or access to a copy of the Scoutmaster Handbook and Boy Scout Handbook, these are great references for a leader worth every penny paid for them. I use them in my position as Assistant Cubmaster, and my husband has begun using them along with the Advancement book for his position as Assistant Scoutmaster/Advancement Chair. The information is just plain good to have handy.

You're welcome, Dave. These BSA resources are helpful, and I am happy to share some of them.