Laurie

Hmmmm...Fat Old Guy, you may have just turned this thread into one that will qualify for the Issues and Politics Forum--lol! (Or should that be Foggy-kins? )

Thank you all again. DSteele, I will simply bring the error the DE's attention; thank you for letting me know who can and should address this. I'm not worried, but it would nice to know who's who. Shouldn't a pack know who the COR is?(This message has been edited by Laurie)

We do! We do! Our council camp has a reservation with 3 separate campgrounds, one of them for Cubs, the other 2 for Boy Scouts. I planned the camping trip, and it was interesting to hear questions and comments along the way. First, there had been no camping for at least 2 years, maybe longer--noone wanted to plan it. So, I set the date and reserved the spot and got it all together. Can moms go? Yes I would answer, please come if you can. How about grandmoms? You bet! Sisters? Yes, them too. This is a *family* camping trip. That was hard for some--they kept calling it the father-son overnighter. Nope, it was one of several weekends designated for families--entire families, male and/or female. Only requirement: must bring a Cub with you The activities were geared toward youth; however, the entire family could participate and was encouraged to. If there was a craft for a Cub, any adult or sibling could join in it too. We had moms and dads with reservations about going due to accomodations, and I found the Boy Scout leader dads to be funniest of all. You mean, we don't need a matress? Well, I'm packing one anyway, I'm not going to be uncomfortable. Things like that. The good news: unanimous decision to go back, the sooner the better. The woman were welcomed; the siblings were welcomed; all had fun. However, a key thing in setting the tone was to make it very clear right up front that ALL were welcome. All leaders knew this was a for all the family, and eventually the name father-son campout was dropped. Oh, and though I planned it, I didn't go. We have a 2-yr-old at home, and I felt it more important for my son to have some time with his dad away than for me to try to chase a baby around at camp. That was my choice though; we all could have gone, even the baby.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

LOL NJScouter! I also agree, and it sounds like a good opportunity to introduce the boys to what they have to look forward to.

FScouter, thank you very much! You gave a clear and simple explanation that helps a bunch.

Wow, to think I actually thought I had a handle on who's who--but don't. Time to hit the books again; they are never far away acco40, I do know that the COR represents the CO. The devil's in the details; I should have said I spoke to the secretary of the CO today. We do not have an IH. We have not, to my knowledge, had a COR for many many years. We also have not had a CC for many many years. In name only, but that doesnt' count except for recordkeeping purposes, and I for one won't fill out inaccurate records. So...yes, I need to hit the books. But help me with some practical applications here using your experience. The DE is incredibly busy due to a merger and roundups, so getting hold of him is tough. The UC seems to have dropped off the face of the earth; we heard he went vacation, but he hasn't returned, and it's been a month--lol! Since our troop does have a Scouter who is their COR, should we share him? I'd love to; he's a great guy who is very knowledgeable. Only drawback with him is that he lives an hour away and can't easily make meetings. And how does one get an IH? Does the church (our CO is a church) chose that person? In speaking with the secretary today, I now know who we can contact to alert them to this open position. But who should do this--I'm afraid I'm overstepping. However, I am not comfortable with us having positions left unfilled or filled by "unknowns". Our CC, just slightly newer to this than I am, feels the same way. Please advise--and yes, we will hit the books again too. And we are signing up for every training available--hoping that this year they actually take place. Sorry guys, but this is the frustrating part to me, and I thank you in advance for those practical helps.

I was just logging on to find out about this very subject. Our pack has a COR in name only, and when I asked who that person was, noone knew. So, when I ran the calendar dates by the CO today, I asked them. Seems they have no clue what a COR is. Here's the scoop: we have a troop with one number, a pack with a different number. Each is chartered through they same organization, a local church. Each has a different COR, but the troop know its COR (and he is not part of the church), but the pack has no clue how the name listed for our COR came about. Then there is a third name provided: the person who actually signs the charter, and that is the same for both the troop and the pack, but that person is not a COR for either. I was all excited about the possibility of us filling this position for real, but now I'm not sure what we are to do. Please advice. TIA!

This happened in our pack, and my son did not recieve any correct activity pins (Webelos), nor did he recieve the correct amount of pins. Thankfully, he was awarded his Arrow of Light, but that is because one too many had been ordered. The den leader forgot to tell the person handling advancements that these things were earned on time, but then they tried to make a quick run to fill in what was missed, but it still didn't work out. I later learned that there were no records kept--just a jotting down of advancements on scrap paper somewhere. This was the day my son bridged. I was not happy about this. He had worked hard, and if you could have seen his face when they passed right over him. That moment compelled me to learn all I could about helping to ensure that every boy gets what he has worked for. We are short people in the pack, so I am the Asst Cubmaster but just this month was given the role of Advancement Chair as well. Interestingly enough, my husband was asked to be the Advancement Chair for the troop--though the troop is in great shape though short on people too. (One trip to the scout shop from one of us covers both our troop and pack ) What bothers me is the attitude many in our pack have: "It's just a trinket or piece of fabric" has been said. I object to that. It is recognizing what a boy has earned, and he deserves to be recognized, and if the leader can't support that, then the leader needs to rethink why he/she is in leadership.

What I said is true, and I resent being quoted as incorrect. Mr. Noel, it sounds as though you are accusing me of lying. I have a choice: believe quotes in the press or believe those Scouters within the council. I choose to believe my fellow Scouters, for they have not given me reason not to do so. Should I one day find that I chose in error, the worst that will have happened is that I remained loyal as I served those within my community.

Thank you again! This advice is fantastic, and I'm so glad you are offering some really practical suggestions that we can put to use now.

If the answer to this question is not in the current Boy Scout Handbook, then it would seem the question is not appropriate for evaluating a Scout. That is common sense. Though not trained yet, I have read oodles of Cub materials and Scout materials. I have the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book, and I just can't find anything to support the star question. Additionally, I can find nothing to support the amount of time a boy is made to wait before receiving his BOR (other than the service time for higher ranks). In fact, everything seems to promote moving forward at a consistent pace, not just waiting it out. Please keep us posted. This is a very disappointing thing to hear about.

Long title--sorry--couldn't think of a shorter one. I am in learning to be concise Titles: I have always called adults by Mr. or Mrs., and to this day (at 40) I still do unless invited to call them by their first name. My children have been taught to ask an adult their last name, and it's not been a problem except for some younger adults who feel that titles make them appear old. I introduce myself to our pack as Mrs. _______. Others go by first name. Same subject, titles, in the troop. All boys are introduced to all adults as Mr. or Mrs. They always use the titles too, and it's not a problem. The adults even address one another by title before the boys, but when we have committee meetings or meet socially, we are all on a first name basis. Shaking hands: I have offered my hand to just about adult and boy I have met. The boys often don't know what to do, and the adults are often surprised. These are nice people, but this simple greeting seems to be used little. Standing when an adult enters the room: I thought this an excellent question posed in another thread. When should we? What do we teach the boys to do during meetings? I will shake a boy's hand, will listen carefully to him and ask questions to be sure I understand him, will ask what name he prefers for me to call him (so many nicknames!), and try to always show him respect. I do have the expectation of it too. If a boy calls by my first name because he overheard it, I tell him I prefer Mrs. ____. Then of course, there's the Cub Scout and Scout signs and salutes. But other than that, what can we do to help one another show respect?

92 SPL: I think this is an excellent question. I too, even as an adult, sometimes wonder what the most respectful way is to act. So, hope noone minds, but I'm starting another thread to address this. It just keeps coming up

I find this thread to be very helpful. Ed is right: the term "active" in Scouts is open to interpretation. What I appreciate is being able to "think out loud" here to better understand what that means. The input and the questions from experienced Scouters helps me to be a better Scouter.

I have to re-read the thread title to remind myself what this thread is really about. I may be new, but one thing is clear: Those who are part of the BSA care deeply about it, its reputation, and particularly about the boys--even when they disagree with policies. Those who are not part of the BSA do not act supportive of the BSA, so to expect them to feel bad for the boys...well, that's asking a bit much, isn't it. Seriously, I love the BSA and resent the implications and even direct comments that we are somehow hateful, teaching hatred or bigotry, are lawbreakers, etc. I particularly like when a Boy Scout, a younger boy--not us old Scouters -- chimes in. Let us not forget that they are watching us here too. While I respect differing points of view, I use this particular forum to discuss issues so that I can better understand the BSA--not so that I can find fault with it. Shall those of us in the BSA remind one another to use care, even in the heated issues? I say this kindly, but that's kind of hard to see in type

Ed, I happen to follow your thinking and agree with it on the Webelos to Scouts transition and definition of active. However, that said, there are several significant changes that might make the definition vague: 1. A boy is supposed to advance at his own rate, going to the leader authorized to sign his book rather than Akela (which could be a parent, teacher, or almost any adult). 2. A boy in Scouts has from age 11 to age 18 to advance to Eagle, if that is the goal he has set. 3. A boy in Scouts is expected to be more independent than a boy in Cubs. In Cubs, particularly Webelos, they are just preparing for that independence. So, vague--yep, I agree. With reason? Maybe. And I agree with you that a boy cannot advance without attending meetings. He may not even be motivated. In my son's short time in Scouting, he started off well, advancing a little each week while he attended weekly meetings. Then summer came along, and that meant he missed some meetings. He stopped in his advancements, didn't pick up his book when he knew he was missing meetings, and he even missed a trip due to missing a meeting. He didn't get the info in time. He is settled back into a routine, and he is advancing again, and doing so consistently. So, if a boy isn't there, will he advance? Maybe, but it would be harder and not nearly as much fun. To top it all off, when my son missed meetings, he forgot to fulfill a responsibility his patrol had assigned to him. Another boy did it instead; they got tired of waiting. He also recently told me about elections for SPL. It seems that the boys who miss meetings are the ones the boys do not want to vote for. Their reason? Simple according to the boys' discussion: when the patrol leaders are missing, the program suffers for everyone, regardless of rank. A lot has been learned in a short time, and I think that though the book is vague and it is not our opinions that decide what takes place, we can safely acknowledge that boys only advance when they are active--as in present...often.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Thank you Barry, Bob, and all. Bob, I don't know that we have a Troop Guide in our troop, and I know we have no such role in the pack. How I WISH I had that sort of support available to us. As for caring about this boy, yes, I'm beginning to. Seriously, I don't think a conversation with parents will take place, but I have a plan. As we kick off the new year, we are going to do something that has not been done before--actually let the boys and parents know what Cubs is, what the expectations are of all involved, how we hope to make that happen, how they can help, and to welcome their suggestions, ideas, and questions. It seems to me as though this is the way it SHOULD be, but it hasn't worked that way. So, wish me luck please, for this has fallen to me and our committee chair, but the den leaders that we've kept, we've kept because of the work we are doing now to educate and inform all involved. It would help to have training (obviously something I'm not happy about), but we must wait. Thanks again! I feel more hopeful about this particular boy, and also feel more ready to get to know him. No, I don't think he's respected. My belief is that we are all created in God's Image, so that means that noone is less deserving of respect than another. I'll have to remind myself of that often though! Also, though I will do things one way with my own children, I realize that I must not treat all others as my children. They have parents who may have different ideas of how to work with their children. So, I'll stick to Cub stuff with this boy and any other, and as I do so, work with those character connections. What a great opportunity! I felt cursed that we had this kid amongst us; now I am glad he's here. It won't be easy, but the best things in life usually aren't

Hmmm...overly active. Could that be spending too much time on the boards? LOL! Ed, you're welcome. I did some reading, and here's my take. I remain open to correction all. Let's say a troop meets weekly year-round. A patrol leader is elected, and he then has the responsibility for that patrol. Wouldn't that mean that, during his term, he would be required to meet weekly at least? He may have other meetings as well. That would make him active. Likewise, any other Scout with a particular rank requirement involving a specific job description and/or service hours would need to be involved regularly. It would seem that the Scouts would need to try for every meeting. If they did not, they would not be fulfilling their roles. That in turn would let down others in the troop and/or patrol. To be active, as Bob has said, begins to be required when a Scout begins to work on Star. What the books all imply is that the Scout needs to be active--as in at the meetings, going on trips, providing service hours of some sort--in order to advance. If the Scout doesn't care whether he advances or not, then he wouldn't be active. If he does want to be active, then he'll be there. Disclaimer: he'll be there as often as able; the stuff of life does happen to interfere with meetings Perhaps a specific number of meetings isn't given because it's more important to meet goals over a stretch of time. Am I over simplifying this?

Thank you Barry. That's a good idea. I will spend plenty of time with this boy because my son is in a den with him and he's a neighbor boy, though he got into some trouble on our street and has not returned. I would like to know why he is in Cubs, what he expects from/of Cubs, what he hopes to do. Since we most likely will not be in social settings together, and only Cubs, do you have ideas of other questions that I might use to help draw him out and get him to think? He is a tough kid (and he takes risks and puts others in risky situations), and most people avoid him, and I'd like to. However, if I say I care about all our boys, then I'd better include him in that. FOG, we'd have called his parents, but he was dropped off, left at the event, and without a parent telling any of the leaders. And to try to get the family involved--well, that may not ever happen. This is not an easy situation, but prior to the next meeting/event we have, ALL families will be asked to stay in attendance or to provide a number where they can be reached immediately. That currently is something we don't have in place, but this boy is also the only one dropped anywhere without prior arrangements.

Bob, I am not beating myself up over this. I had to act fast, am untrained in the BSA, and had an extremely difficult situation to deal with--and he was not the only boy that needed help and attention. Until you pointed out the better way, I thought I had done ok. I did not do what I'd like to do though, and I don't know how, even still. This is one of many instances when training could have helped. And speaking of training, what exactly is a Wood Badge Counselor or Troop Guide? This is new term for me. Does it apply to Cubs?

I'm not Bob, but will this help? Page 169 of the Boy Scout Handbook: "Be Active in Your Troop and Patrol To gain full advantage of all that Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If you're there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success." The Troop Committee Guidebook mentions being active, but that is it--no definition of any kind. I found the same to be true of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures and the Scoutmaster Handbook. There is most likely more, but this is what I had handy.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Bob, I happen to be in complete agreement with you. My goal (and my joy!) come from working alongside a boy and seeing him learn in whatever he does. I have typed and retyped a response, but all sound defensive. Bottom line is that you are right, I should have done better, but I didn't know how and failed (though it seemed I did ok at the time) with this particular boy. Pack--yeah, I'm told I can be funny at times, even old as I am. (funny aside here: I met a friend from high school that I hadn't seen for 20 years and he said "you look good, very mature"...then hastened to add "but I DO NOT mean old!") As for those smilies and winks, it's easy. A smile is : with a ) directly following it. A wink is : with a ; directly following it. Have fun (This message has been edited by Laurie)

Pack, now you sound like my kids--lol! And, just for the record, I am not 40+, I only just turned 40. Guess I set myself up for that, but still...tread cautiously where a woman's age is concerned I should clarify: I think kids are great too. However, I've heard repeatedly (in school, in church, in our family, etc) that we "can't tell kids what to do", "can't expect them to do this or that", "have to let them do their own thing". But I disagree. We must set their boundaries for them, and then let them test the waters. Then broaden the boundaries. Bit by bit. We can expect certain behaviours, and if we don't, we won't see it--usually. So, the kids get cheated--that's my thought. Interesting situation with a boy yesterday, a really tough one. We were having a carwash. He got mouthy, and I was standing next to him, and I told him quietly but firmly that he is a Cub Scout and that he will do his best to be polite and watch his mouth. (Did not ask him to--simply stated he would.) He did, for about 5 minutes. Then he started with something else, really giving another boy a rough time about how he was doing his carwashing. I told him, quietly and firmly that he will do his best to control himself and then said, ya know, how about letting the leaders be the leaders? He said "huh" as though that had never occured to him. He became offensive, calling the boys old ladies, but looking at me (watch it Pack--lol--he thinks like you on this one ), and tacked on, "but no offense". I again answered him, telling him that no offense would be taken if offensive remarks weren't made. I then took him aside for a bit, telling him he was to be respectful of all around him, that he was to watch his mouth, and that he was to settle down. He just kind of sighed, but he did control himself. For awhile...and on it goes... My point: this boy needed to hear what was expected of him. I know he is used to getting his own way, but his own way was a poor reflection on the other Cubs, and it was offensive. Is he a good kid? It's awfully hard for any of us to think that, but I do believe that any child, with guidance and expectations, will do great. They just need a chance to learn that they can.

I think that if the meaning changes, it makes Scouting confusing. If Webelos is truly the transition to Scouting, then it should not have one definition of active and then Scouting another *unless* the Scouting definition requires more than Webelos.

Twocubdad, you bring up a good point. Where IS the accountability here? It seems as though this was a one-person action, and my thoughts were that she alone should lose. But somehow it had to go through the process as a unit decision. Our CO has virtually no knowledge of what we do, and how I wish that were different. However, we are working at establishing accountability at the committee level, knowing we never have a CO who is one in more than name. So, if I decided to try what that leader did, what IS the process that should have stopped it before the charter was revoked? Anyone know?