Laurie

Our son was actually getting frustrated at what he calls "memory work" in respect to first aid among other things. This is not how I view advancement. IMO, it is the practice of something that helps it to stick and that over time should help develop skills. So, no ripping open bandaids, but maybe having a first aid kit handy, pulling out what is needed (a wrapped bandaid would be fine), and talking as pretending to do something would be ok? Am I on track? I'm thinking of the boys here, truly, and I can't imagine it can be fun to sit and talk about stuff that you should show or demonstrate, nor would it be as productive a time.

My husband and I have a debate going, friendly, but nevertheless you can help us to settle it. Since I'm home more often, I am the one who does reviews with our own son when he learns new things for advancement. My husband has begun working with some of the boys during troop meetings. Here's the issue: I say "show" means they need to actually show what they'd do rather than to talk about it. He says that (1) no other leader makes them show things and (2) he doesn't think one *can* show some things. First aid is a prime example. Our son thought this discussion was hysterically funny, and he jumped right in saying there's no way he could show anyone how to do simple first aid. I love a challenge, so I told him that I just cut my finger and needed help. He tried to tell me and I said I needed first aid for my wound, not a discussion Then I was bit by a poisonous snake and suffered from sunburn--all in the space of a few minutes. He laughed a lot, felt quite silly, but he did it. He was puzzled though: why bother? I asked him if he remembered what he DID or what he TALKED about. He got the point, and he's 11, but my husband is still not convinced. Now, I look at the printed word "show" and figure that's pretty clear. Am I wrong? And if I'm right, the most important thing here is the HOW of demonstrating. Ideas are welcomed. We've both been trained and are continuing in training, but this has not been covered.

That did sound cruel though, and Dave has often stated that his books are in the office, that he'll reply then. He has been kind, helpful, thoughtful. He has given a "feel" for the pro side of Scouting, and quite frankly, I had trouble liking pros until I read Dave's messages. They made me really examine what the pros do, and how we are not "us and them" but rather all work together. This post sounded devisive and took what appears to be a cheap shot at someone who did nothing to deserve it. Dave is a man, that though I have never met him, is consistent in his support of and belief in the BSA as the single best organization anyone could belong to, and every indication is that he works hard to do a good job. I'm stunned at the post originating this thread and rather saddened.

A Scout is trustworthy. Yes, I agree, but I can also understand the need for accountability if it were to be exercised in this situation. I'm really glad it's easy to do because getting records has been a challenge for us. Captain Cub Scout--love it, Dave! But you do know that adding a cape is not proper uniforming, don't you? (This message has been edited by Laurie)

In our council, we are told that tour permits are not needed when visiting council properties and/or council events or when visiting any place in the same town as our charter organization. That seems consistent with the form itself. In your list of when a tour permit is not needed, I'm curious to see what others have to say about option 3. Wouldn't the permit still be needed to be sure that the boys are following the guidelines on it?

No kidding! Wow, that seems too easy. Since I'm a regular at the Scout Shop, I'll do just that. Thank you!

I did look through the forums for this, but if it's there I missed it. Could someone advise how one is to obtain the Arrow of Light knot for adults who earned it as a Cub? My husband did, and he's registered with a troop as an adult leader. His parents are quick to throw things out though (all badges, records, etc were considered as taking up space to his dismay). TIA!

Thank you Dave! I am attending Pow Wow 2004 on January 10, so I was just curious what the differences were. I have been anxiously looking forward to this one, for all those I've met throughout council love it--not one negative thing to say.

Quick question relating to this topic: what is the difference between Pow Wow and University of Scouting? We have Pow Wow only, though it has been referred to as University of Scouting by some.

I'll second that It's good to see you posting, by the way, and I hope the new year brings good things for you Dave. To all my fellow Scouters, it's almost 2004--hope the year ahead is a good one for all of you too!

I'll second all of the wishes shared thus far, and add my own wishes for a wonderful day and holiday season! The fire and candles are lit, the stockings look full, the Christmas music is playing, the tree surrounded by gifts, and the children are just now waking. The fun is about to begin here! As we sing Happy Birthday to Jesus, my desire is that we as a family remember Him each day following Christmas too. Peace, joy, and good health to all in the coming new year from Laurie and family.

Thank you to all of you! I have been following this thread, just reading and absorbing the ideas it contains, mentally checking off what we have done, what we need to do, and so on. Thank you for your time. It looks like it's time to map out a strategy. The kids are pretty much evenly divided between all 5 schools represented, so we don't have one particularly active school. Same with leaders, since they come with their own sons. We really do have some work ahead of us, but I'm not alone in wanting to reach more boys. The pack leadership has been expressing a desire to get the word out, but we all agree--we don't quite know what we're doing in that area, particularly as there are so many schools and so few leaders right now. So, many thanks to you for helping us with that!

No problem Ed--thanks for clarifying for me. The one thing I know with absolute certainty is that I am mighty glad to be working with a unit and not having to deal with all of this directly. It must be so hard.

Ed, maybe I'm missing something, but the only two quotes attributed to anyone from Cradle of Liberty are: "That's the model," said Cradle of Liberty executive director William T. Dwyer 3d. "Until the city is satisfied, we can't let anything out, until things are officially ironed out," he said. "It has been a major distraction," Lipson said. "It's hurt the morale." Quite frankly I don't understand the lawful versus unlawful discrimination wording (and I don't see it attributed to COL, but I may be missing it somewhere), but maybe that's because I think of BSA as a private organization with membership criteria...period.

Bob, do you think I did not chose words with care? If so, please tell me. As for leaving council, that may sound harsh, but the absolute only way I'd do so if it were to stop carrying out BSA policy. I prefer to support it, and I am happy to do so as often and in as many ways as I can. I don't see it happening. By the way, to all, the website is updated, and there is some United Way-Cradle of Liberty news posted on-line that you might find interesting as it relates to this thread.

FOG: We live closer to an out-of-state council than we do our own, so it's actually easy to do. We'd simply register our sons and ourselves in a different pack and troop; we know of some close by.

I asked very direct questions of three different executives when this news first hit a few months back. That resulted in my recieving e-mail, postal, and telephone responses. This is what I understand from those communications that I find to conflict with what is reported in the news: COL did not institute a new policy. It did discuss, and it has admitted to discussing, the policy to see if there was a way to be less discriminatory without endorsing any particular sexual orientation and without violating National's policy. COL did not go against National, nor did it want to, nor does it want to now. Therefore, there was no need for the supposed threat to happen. COL wants to deliver the Scouting program to as many as possible, and it wants to do so in keeping with National's policies. COL is not initiating things here. It is responding to what the city has asked of it. If the article seems to be about what COL is doing, yet the city has put something in motion. Perhaps the reason we see so few quotes from council and they have so little to say is that they are not the ones looking for change. COL is not getting nearly so much attention locally as it might seem. The news is using little pieces of news to create a larger article--in a word: sensationalism. COL serves more than Philadelphia, though it is often represented as or spoken of us the Philadelphia Council. At one time it was just that, but it now includes Montgomery and Delaware Counties. This is not just a Philadelphia issue, though the physical location of this building would certainly be a city issue. COL, due to serving such a large area, has areas in support of change and areas very much against it. That leaves no middle ground. National says very clearly that there are to be no homosexuals, and COL does not want to go against National (even those who disagree with policy want to work within to create change--and not within the media), and COL has stated that it will remain consistent with National. I guess what I'd ask of fellow Scouters is to try to be more understanding. I know there are Scouters who take place in these forums who want change. However, I don't get the sense that they want defiance. COL is in an unenviable position in that regard. It's made up of great people--I have had the privilege of meeting many--and they really just want to see Scouting continue on and to serve the boys in this community. It's doing that too, even under such intense pressure. I'd encourage anyone who would like to know more to contact council. Contact information can be found at http://www.colbsa.org/ If you learn that I am wrong, tell me who within council I need to talk to now--I will do so. I just don't like to see anyone misrepresented, and I will defend those who I feel need it--in this case, Cradle of Liberty.

And why are we so quick to believe that what the paper has reported is correct? Has anyone who wants to criticize Cradle of Liberty actually contacted the council? I have, and they did respond. What angers me is that a big assumption is made here, the assumption that what is reported must be true--that Cradle of Liberty is working to be one thing but say another. I am part of Cradle of Liberty, and I am one of many who would leave the council in a heartbeat unless satisfied that it was willing to abide by National policy in order to maintain its charter and thereby Scouting in this area. Saying one thing, doing another--I will not tolerate that. It is not what the BSA is about, so I don't understand why such a large group of Scouters would be called into question without first finding out if the news is accurate.

I would not be in favor of that. The boys get nervous when they know they have a SM conference in order to earn Arrow of Light. If anything, I personally would meet with each boy to review his AoL scoreboard--or if he isn't going for AoL, then his other advancements--and that would be similar to a SM. I do meet with individual boys in our Webelos II den, and they are usually nervous with one-on-one meetings (in site of the other leaders and parents), but by a second or third meeting, they actually enjoy it, and we get to know one another better. Since Board of Review is for a troop and not a pack, since it does not meet a requirement, and since each troop personality may be a little different, I see no reason why the boys can't begin these at the troop level. My son is a first-year Scout, and 6 boys bridged. Two aren't very active at all, but the other four have all had SM conferences and BORs, and they've done just fine. But this is just my take on this, not BSA policy or BSA-dictated

Oh Eamonn, I hear you. Recruiting seems to have a negative meaning. Think of recruiting or making a pitch as simply an invitation. After all, that is what it is. For me, getting past that numbers issue was tough. After all, what is the purpose? Why do we need big numbers in the unit? Well, I'm not sure we do. The better question may be, are we getting the word out to the boys that there is this very cool program that is tons of fun? Over and over again we hear, "I had no idea we had Cubs in this area", and so somehow, in spite of hundreds of fliers being sent to each school, in spite of our cable TV ad this year, in spite of word of mouth invitations--somehow the word is still not out that we are here. I believe in the program, and from all you say, so do you. As you talk about it, invite others to join it, encourage the boys and leaders to invite others out--you are inviting them to something you value and think will benefit them. Sales pitch? Maybe. But I can't think of anything better to sell than a program defined as "fun with a purpose", that encourages families, that gives many opportunities to boys to try new things, that is always praising boys, that is good for the community, that is worth far more than any dollar amount that could ever be assigned to it. I consider it an investment; with each invitation I issue, I am helping to invest in local families, the community, and our country as together we help boys to grow into the very best they can be. In fact, I believe in this all so much that I made my 4th successful adult recruit this week. Did I sell it, make a pitch? Yep, I sure did. But it was the purpose of the program and the program seen at work that won over a person who previously felt it would be a waste of his time. Keep up the good work you do Eamonn. You must be such a help to your DE and to all in your district.

FOG, good question--one that will show my age! I forget all details, but if one did not play an instrument during football season (marching band season), then one was not allowed to play at any time. And since taking part in Color Guard eliminated playing an instrument, it was Color Guard for football season and no band at all. Band rules were tough, and IMO way too tough. Try-outs for the new marching band season were during field hockey season (I could see the girls practicing while I was drilling), so that much I do recall. Had I gone with sports, I'd have been encouraged to play several, but only if, and I quote our coaches, I had the "killer instinct". Some things really don't change, they just begin at younger ages, hm?

I have, bit by bit, been won over to the reality that numbers do matter. So I looked into the area we serve with our Cub Scout pack to see what number of students we recruit from. This is by no means comprehensive, but it sure does show that our unit needs to recruit. How would you increase numbers? Would you set goals, set aside funds to help with recruiting, advertise via word of mouth only, etc? One pack serves a school district that covers 11.12 square miles. In that area, there are four elementary schools for grades K-4, one middle school, and one high school. I did not get the high school numbers or the private school numbers, but we do have at least one private school that serves this same area, and we have at least 3 boys from that school in this pack. In grades 1 through 4, there is a potential of 500+ potential Cubs. Yet, we have 20: 2 Tigers, 0 Wolf Cubs, 6 Bears, 6 first-year Webelos, and 6 second-year Webelos. Clearly, many boys are missing out. Clearly, this is an area with potential in the way of numbers. If you were part of the leadership for this pack, what would you do?

We cover an entire school district with one pack and one troop. The pack is where I have my primary registration, so this thread intrigued me and led me to check out some numbers to see just what we are tackling as far as numbers. I'm going to start a new thread with them, and I'd like to play "Recruiter" using what I have. How do we reach so many unreached boys? That said, I'm not sure we are doing anything wrong. I sincerely believe that the program, when done as the BSA lays it out, will attract and keep boys. I also believe we need to be sensitive enough to all the other things boys are involved in to avoid the "attend or else you miss out" trap. They will know that already--that they're missing out if the program is working. I have learned that many sports directors don't allow boys to enroll in ANYTHING else when they are in season, and out-of-season, sports practice and clinics keep going on. When I was in band front as Color Guard about 20+ years ago, we were not allowed--school policy--to do anything but that. Therefore, I quit playing an instrument and did not play field hockey though the coach tried to recruit me. It was expected that one would devote him/herself to whatever activity he/she participated in. How sorry I am that I could not do more now! Therefore, we enrolled our children in private school, where the pressure is only as great as the parents and/or student choose, but where a child can do more than one thing. We don't agree with the intense pressure put on children to master sports--or anything--so early. Just as there is criticism for parents/schools pushing too hard for boys to stick with a particular sport (scholarships is a big issue in this area--and a fair one IMO), we get criticized for not pushing our boys to grow up faster. I said I wasn't sure we are doing anything wrong. Now let me add: I wonder if we can do more that is right, and actively recruit to get those who we are missing to check out the program. In the past year, I've seen only one boy in each the pack and the troop, pay a visit then decide against joining. That's good, I think. Not all will stay. The big question, as DSteele pointed out, is HOW to accomplish this.

Funny, FOG, my kids and some fellow Scouters think *I* am an ogre! My son did not camp in Cubs; he joined as a second-year Webelos, and his first camping trip was with the troop a week prior to bridging. My husband and I knew nothing of the camp, what was required, etc., so I did help my son. Usually I will not, except to point out resources that will help him. I don't think he had a great start to camping, because he simply had no preparation other than what I helped him with: how to roll his sleeping bag, how to pack his gear, etc. Hmmmmm, I guess I've met someone who is more of an ogre than me

You're welcome.