Kudu

HOWEVER as strict as some state laws are becoming, leaving a group of teenagers without adult supervision in the wilderness could be considered negligence in some jurisdictions My point exactly: The purpose of Wood Badge is to teach Den Leaders to brainstorm reasons why the Boy Scout program must be dumbed-down to the Cub Scout level, instead of creating workarounds for jurisdictions in which the "Real" Patrol Method is against the law. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

ScoutBox writes: there was essentially no course for CS leaders...The older courses were labor intensive (patrol cooking) and outdoor intensive - so we were essentially eliminating those who were less outdoor prone from participating, and we were taking too much time in teaching outdoor skills rather than leadership skills. Yes, Wood Badge is designed for Den Leaders who hate the Patrol Method because it is too "outdoor intensive" and "takes too much time." But Scoutcraft, not "leadership skills," is defined by our Congressional Charter as one of the three Purposes of Scouting. Wood Badge qualifies indoor people who hate Scouting (Scoutcraft) to move into positions of authority such as local training staffs, "health and safety" committees, and other decision-making capacities: "We should spend a million dollars on a summer camp dining hall because Patrol cooking is labor intensive and takes too much time!" Our local Training Chair is a Den Leader. When I mentioned that there is no description of a Patrol and no mention of a Patrol Leader in the Patrol Method Presentation of SM-Specific Training, her assistant (also a Den Leader) jumped on me right away about not adding or subtracting from the course outline. They both used exactly the same phrases three times during the course planning sessions to demand that we not add Patrols and Patrol Leaders to the Patrol Method Presentation (the purpose of which is explain EDGE theory now). And what kind of person on a national training staff writes a Patrol Method presentation that replaces Patrol Leaders with these "leadership skills" in the first place? And what kind of person on a national heath and safety committee removes Patrol Outings from approved activities? Those "who are less outdoor prone," that's who. Kick the cupcakes out of Wood Badge! Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

My Scouts like to borrow my Magellan Triton 400. You can purchase a refurbished Triton 400 (with a 90 day warranty) for under $90 on Amazon, about the same as I over-paid for the old "legacy" eXplorist 400 units on Ebay: http://tinyurl.com/3536sug Kudu http://kudu.net/

I wrote: Cub Scouts is probably the leading reason why most boys (and parents) never consider Boy Scouts. Some years when polled at their first Scoutmaster Conference, about half of our new Scouts told me they dropped out of Cub Scouts. I think that such dropouts make better outdoor Scouts than boys who stick with the program long enough to cross over. pchadbo writes: Explain this please, is it the mandated one-on-one camping that you are referring to or something else? The required time commitment (of which one-on-one camping is one element) seems to discourage many parents from allowing their sons to join Boy Scouts. In fact that is the only downside to recruiting in the public schools: These parents are less inclined to step up and volunteer than parents who keep their sons in the program. The stuff that the Cub Scout dropouts themselves mentioned to me in Scoutmaster Conferences: The cutsey feminine tone of most Cub Scout Packs; being treated like a baby; the mind-numbingly boring, indoor, anti-boy aspect of crafts and schoolwork badges (KISMIF? It ain't FUN!); and (in their words) "Some kid's mommy telling me what to do." Boys who put their foot down and refused to continue in Cub Scouts tended to adapt better to "Real" Patrols. In fact, once in the 1990s I tried my Recruiting Presentation at a Blue & Gold and it was a total disaster! All nine of the Webelos II Scouts were so frightened that none of them wanted to join my Troop. When talked to them individually, I had to back-peddle and say stuff like "Well, you won't see any bears until we camp in the Adirondacks. You won't see any rattlesnakes until you backpack in the Allegheny National Forest." Eight out of the nine eventually joined, but (according to the dads) half of the moms thought their sons were too young and refused to let them go to summer camp the first year. My experience is that boys who complete Webelos but do not go to summer camp the first year of Boy Scouts do not return in the fall. jet526 writes: The thing that surprises me is that you can get a principal to give you time during the school day. The best we can get is to set up a table/booth in the gym during back to School Night. I was told for years that was the "school policy" until one year a Scout of ours (who served a lot of detention, and was often suspended from school) talked the vice-principal in charge of discipline (a Scoutmaster) into letting us have the auditorium during sixth-grade gym classes. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

I wrote: We no longer train Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols out on patrol. SeattlePioneer writes: The Wood Badge Course I took was not ABOUT teaching outdoor skills. Just about everybody confuses "teaching outdoor skills" with teaching Patrol Leaders how to actually apply those outdoor skills when they take their Patrols out on patrol: Scoutcraft Competency + Leadership Formulas =/= Applied Patrol Leader Scoutcraft (Scoutcraft Competency plus Leadership Formulas does NOT equal Applied Patrol Leader Scoutcraft). It is the difference between signing Scouts off on Tenderfoot through First Class Swimming requirements, versus teaching potential BSA Life Guards how to use those skills to save lives. If Wood Badge did to BSA Lifeguards what Wood Badge did to Patrol Leaders (take away their position-specific training, count "Lifeguard" as a POR, and encourage six-month popularity contests for Troop Lifeguard because "boy-led" means Scouts know better than adults which of their friends will make the best Lifeguards), then BSA Waterfronts would be scaled down to baby pools and splash pads (to resemble Leadership Development's Webelos III campsites where even the most incompetent Patrol Leader can learn office management formulas without any real risk to the other Webelos III Scouts). When I took Wood Badge the content of the course was about the Fake Leadership Formula of the day called the "Eleven Skills of Leadership." However, three (3) important Patrol elements remained: 1) Wood Badge Patrols separated over 300 feet, with each Patrol in its own "Troop" campsite. The Patrols were so far apart that when we Beavers (camped at the top of the hill) shouted out a "No Files on Us" challenge, it cascaded down the hill from Patrol site to Patrol site until we could not hear, down in the valley, the last Patrol's response to the second-to-the-last Patrol's challenge. 2) Wood Badge Patrol Outings. One afternoon each Patrol (equipped for camping) followed a trail of Treasure Hunt Wide Game hints that lead each Patrol to its own remote corner of the camp (in which each Patrol camped overnight without any contact with the Staff or any other Patrol). We shouted out a few "No Flies on Us" challenges, but ALL the other Patrols were out of earshot. 3) Figure it Out Yourself. In those days our local Wood Badge Staff never explained much about logistics: Certainly not how to get your equipment from a Quartermaster, nor how to find a Patrol Cart with which to transport the heavy equipment to the distant campsites. Each Patrol had to figure all the practical stuff out for themselves. In the process it quickly became evident which of the participants in each Patrol was its Natural Leader. The intention was generally understood to create in the minds of the participants the absolute confusion that a new Scout experiences when he joins a Boy Scout Troop, and then (over the course of the week of Wood Badge), the gradual building of confidence that a Scout developments as he becomes seasoned. So obviously Wood Badge could be easily fixed: We old goats would unconditionally surrender to the Cult of Fake Leadership. In return the "Win All You Can" game would be eliminated and the Course Director or SPL would use that time slot to say to the participants: "You may have noticed that your Wood Badge Patrols are all separated by at least 300 feet. That was Baden-Powell's minimum distance between Patrols when the Patrols camped together as a Troop. It is our hope that each of you will some day be able to use what you learn in Wood Badge to train at least one of your Patrol Leaders to camp 300 feet away from the other Patrols in your Troop." Likewise: "Did you enjoy camping far away on the trail as a separate Patrol last night?" That was the goal of all training in Baden-Powell's time: 'Patrol Overnights!' It is our hope that each of you will some day be able to use what you learn in Wood Badge to train at least one of your Patrol Leaders to take his Patrol on a Patrol Overnight in a Boy Scout camp just like you all did last night!" If Wood Badge even spent 20 minutes describing the "Real" Patrol Method, at least some participants would then strive to prove that Leadership Formulas actually work in the real world as well as the methods of Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt once did. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

Here are some of the numbers behind my School Presentation for Recruiting Sixth Graders: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Numbers of sixth-graders who (in front of their peers) signed my "Yes! I Want to Go Camping!" list asking me to call their parents: October 1, 2007 = 38 out of a total audience of 53 September 29, 2006 = 34 out of 42. The 11-person difference in the total audience was due (at least in part) to the fact that the sixth-grade boys are divided into two gym classes, so I always gave the presentation twice in the same day. In 2007, a number exuberant boys from the first presentation got out of their class (study hall?) during the second presentation just to see it all again. May 2004 = 25 signed the call-up list. This was a spur of the moment, end of the school-year presentation. I believe that something else was happening in the school at the same time, so attendance was optional. The total audience was much smaller but I did not count it. The extra six months of maturity made a surprising difference in how quickly those that did register adapted to the Patrol Method. Likewise, only three of them could attend summer camp because of the short notice, but I did not loose any of the boys who did not attend summer camp (significant if you compare that to the retention rate of Webelos Crossovers who do not attend summer camp, which in my experience is near zero). That fall the 12 year-old Patrol Leader recruited all his seventh-grade friends and built the number in his Patrol up to 12, so despite the low number of initial sign-ups, the total number of registered Scouts was surprisingly close to the usual 15 in other years. November 2004 = 37 signed the list. I did not count the total audience back then. I don't have any of the sign-up sheets from the 1990s. Here is a breakdown of the 38 sixth-graders (out of an audience of 53) who signed the "Yes, I Want to Go Camping!" list on October 1, 2007 (Remember that "reasons" given over the phone may or may not be true): "Yes" to phone inquiry that afternoon = 19 I held the recruiting presentation on Mondays, the day our Troop meets. The idea is to get them to a meeting that night before the euphoria wears off. Some can not make it on such short notice, but that number is much smaller than the number who lose interest if you wait even a single day (to give yourself more time to call everyone on the list). Of these 19, the total who actually registered = 11, plus 4 friends, brothers, etc., for a total of 15 registered new Scouts. 100% of those who attended the first meeting did register with the Troop. Parents who said "Yes" on the phone but never showed up = 8 2 twins (mother bragged that they were the top popcorn sellers in Cub Scouts, but they would wait until after hunting season to join in February). 1 mother is a Girl Scout leader, but decided to wait until May after hockey. 1 mother of Asian boy wavered for months despite the efforts of one of the new moms - said "no time" at first on phone, then decided to join when other mom explained she did not have to attend meetings as in Cubs, but then finally decided son was too young for camping. 4 hid behind voice mail for three callbacks after they did not show up at meeting as promised. Back in the 1990s I was able to increase the number of registered Scouts to about 20 by continuing to call the parents who said "Yes" on the first call but never made it to the first meeting. What I found was that such families tend to be dysfunctional and disruptive -- not worth the effort. Answered "Maybe" on the phone = 7 1 No car 2 Football - call back November 1 Religion classes - call back in May 1 Hockey practice - call back in May 2 Basketball - call back in November "Call back later" never actually works. You have to get them to the first meeting that night, or the next week at the latest. Answered decisive "No" to phone call = 4 1 Tae Kwon Do 1 Ice Hockey 1 Changed mind 1 Monday is busy The number of decisive "No" answers is often the smallest category (The number of "no" due to ice hockey is usually higher). No phone number, illegible, disconnected = 2 I actually spend a considerable amount of time figuring out illegible phone numbers, which does pay off. Something that I added to my sales pitch (when the entire auditorium is frantic with the desire to be a Boy Scout) is the warning that "If you do not print your phone number clearly, we may never be able to find you." It worked! In previous years the number was as high as 4-6. Hid behind voice mail for four attempts to call = 6 In years past the number of parents who hid behind voice mail and answering machines was about twice as high, but this year I started leaving as part of the message "Despite the similarity in name, OUR PROGRAM IS NOT THE SAME AS CUB SCOUTS. Parents are not required to attend meetings or campouts." I started adding that on the third round of phone calls, and in less than an hour I added 3 registered Scouts to my total! Face it, a lot of people hate our Cub Scout program. Cub Scouts is probably the leading reason why most boys (and parents) never consider Boy Scouts. Some years when polled at their first Scoutmaster Conference, about half of our new Scouts told me they dropped out of Cub Scouts. I think that such dropouts make better outdoor Scouts than boys who stick with the program long enough to cross over. Also, when my Wood Badge buddies watch my presentation and then observe me working the phones, they tell me that I could "double" the number of registered Scouts if I switch to a different sales approach with the parents, emphasizing the importance of "Eagle Scout" on their son's resume, and the benefits of learning "leadership." In years past I tried that but decided that it was a devil's bargain. Parents who are motivated by Eagle Scout tend to be helicopters, and their sons tend to be too busy (with all of their other resume-building activities) to be long-term Patrol Leaders. Give me a backpacking First Class Scout over an Eagle Scout any day! That said, if you think that "Eagle Scout" is a good thing (rather than second only to Wood Badge in its destructive effect on the Patrol Method), and stress it over the phone with the parents, then your results with my Recruiting Presentation may be higher than the numbers above. Retention rate one year later = 3 boys dropped out. 1 mother said (referring to the meetings her son attended) "Oh, he absolutely loved it," but decided her son was "too young to go camping -- maybe later." 1 (the smallest boy) was a gifted trouble-maker who started fights (as he did at school) and then ran to his parents for protection. He was a master-manipulator who fortunately dropped out after a couple of months when we stood up to his "my son can do no wrong" parents. 1 was just not an outdoor boy. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

What some Scouts do in your situation is recruit into their Patrol, sixth-graders from their neighborhood, school, church, or the younger brothers of their friends. It is difficult for most Scoutmasters to object to that! Remember that the insurance policies of most Councils allow boys of Scouting age to come on a campout (rather than a boring indoor meeting) before they register, just to see if they like it. If you are already camping your Patrol 150 feet away from the others, then outdoor boys are likely to be impressed with the adventure. Stick to your guns about "Real Scouting" because the boys you are most likely to recruit are those who either hated Cub Scouts, or never joined. Here are some of the things I say to sell Scouting to sixth-graders: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

I wrote: Beaver is absolutely wrong about "real live kids" making anyone "less convinced" of the Boy Scout program as Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe it. Beavah writes: Yah, I would be wrong, if that's what I had said . I said it kept yeh from becoming "too convinced" and strident. Same thing. Beavah writes: That to my mind is da issue. Learnin' about "storming and norming" or any of those other management theories isn't a bad thing. It might give yeh an insight or an idea that helps. Sure: It might give you an insight or two. So therefore office leadership formulas do merit a mention in the University of Scouting, or even years of study to qualify for a fake PhD in fake leadership. They do not belong in Wood Badge, unless the purpose of Wood Badge is to help the CSE achieve Leadership Development's 45 year-old goal to make Scoutcraft merely optional (so that we can spend millions of dollars on translators to bundle the toxic assets of "character and leadership" with Hispanics who love soccer but hate camping). See: http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Beavah writes: I reckon that your current "biggest troop in da county" doesn't match your vision.... That's why I did not mention the Patrol Method to them for the first two years. I wrote: "Real live kids" prove that when you pick the best natural leaders and separate their Patrols by 300 feet, Scouting begins to work just the way Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe it, even with Scouts who have never experienced the Patrol Method before. Anybody can do that. Beavah writes: Yah, hmmm... That's a testable hypothesis. Testable Hypothesis, huh? Sounds very scientific. Beavah writes: I don't think "anybody" can do it, eh? Well, if I had known that you were reading my posts again, I would not have been so emphatic in my assertions, or referred to you in the third-person By "anybody" I mean: If I can learn how to do that, then anybody can learn how to do that. That was why Baden-Powell invented Wood Badge. That is why Bill Hillcourt brought Wood Badge to the United States. Beavah writes: I don't think "anybody" can pick da best natural leaders. Sure they can. The problem is that Leadership Development has convinced us that it is is somehow unseemly to figure out which Scouts are the natural leaders: That Scouts need to vote for a Patrol Leader every six months so that they will eventually make a bad choice. Leadership Development's Webelos III environment (called "Controlled Failure") is designed so that the worst consequence of picking a bad Patrol Leader is that the Patrol eats burned pancakes for six months. But yes, it is true that in a Webelos III environment Scouts probably do a better job than adults of picking the Scout who can best pretend to use the EDGE method to wash the dishes. Beavah writes: In fact, I offer as evidence your congress and da officials in your BSA district. Not the same thing, is it? I am talking about Scouts that you know: Like David. Remember when David was eight years old and the football coach didn't show up? The parents all wanted to go home, but he talked the other boys into practicing patterns of his own creation. That weekend the team won for the only time all season. Yeah, David: who when he was nine years old rode his little BMX bike 30 miles with the Boy Scouts, but cried that night when he couldn't strike a match no matter how hard he tried. David: The kid who refused to buy any candy at summer camp when he was 13 because he was saving for a backpacking stove. That's right, David: The kid who when he was 14 and nobody wanted to sleep on Monster Mountain at summer camp, just slung his pack over his back and started off alone until four Scouts yelled to stop because they had changed their minds and then followed up the mountain behind him. I wrote: "Real live kids" prove that you can register 28% of an auditorium full of skeptical boys if you offer them the kind of adventure that Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe (a total of 70% will sign your list in front of their peers). That is above and beyond the best efforts of what Wood Badge trained volunteers and professionals can do, which is what? 2%? 4%? 8%? Beavah writes: Yah, except anecdote is not da same thing as data, eh? Yeh did that once, in one location. No, I did it perhaps a dozen times, and I will spin off some statistics in a separate thread below. The larger point here is that you talk all sciencey with terms like "testable hypothesis" and "anecdotal evidence," but you are just one of the guys at the foot of the Pisa Tower using LOGIC to prove that a ten pound weight falls twice as fast as a five pound weight: "Yah, Galileo, yeh did that once, in one location. Do it a dozen more times in different locations and then yeh might have somethin'. Otherwise it's still a great success story, but a fluke." But that is not my responsibility, is it? If anyone wants to recruit 15 times better than a BSA millionaire, then read my "School Presentation for Recruiting Sixth-Graders" and try it out at your local school: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm If you come back and report that an auditorium of little buggers "Formed and Stormed" you off the stage, only then can we debate if your "scientific" findings do indeed "falsify" my reports. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

OldGreyEagle writes: Just to be clear, Kudu's dislike of WoodBadge did not start with WoodBadge for the 21rst Century, it started with the curriculum change in WoodBadge in 1972 That is correct, however the decision to destroy William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Scoutcraft Wood Badge was made in 1965, only a few months after he retired. To that end specific position of responsibility advancement requirements were introduced in 1965. If it wasn't for these PORs, we could at the Troop level just ignore the destructive forces of "Leadership Development" which replaced the Scoutcraft in Wood Badge. The introduction of these POR requirements reminds me of the scene in "Titanic" where Thomas Andrews, the architect of the Titanic, points to his blueprints of the ship and explains to the captain that because five compartments have been breached, the water will spill over the tops of all of the bulkheads. Because of this damage to the structure's integrity, it was a "mathematical certainty" that the greatest ship in the world would sink. John Larson, author of a different blueprint, the 1965 "Blueprint for Action" (White Stag Report), took special delight in his destruction of the world's most popular Boy Scout Program: "Larson later reported, 'He [Hillcourt] fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right'." "Settle down, everything is going to be all right" is Wood Badge jargon for "We will lose two million Boy Scouts over this: 30% of our membership!" See "1965" at: http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

Beavah writes: I think he lost some wit and perspective when he stopped workin' with kids because life happened. Life happened? Yes, I retired and moved to the rural south but I did not stop working with Scouts. In addition to weekly meetings and monthly campouts, this spring I tagged along with them and earned Open Water (and then Advanced Open Water) SCUBA certification, which was new to me. I took a dozen of them on their first backpacking trip a couple weeks ago (which was new to them), and two days later accompnied a couple of them on a twelve hour 84 mile bike hike (which was new to me). Beavah writes: I wish Kudu would start up a troop and crew again to practice and refine his notions. Yeah, that usually involves driving a half-hour to a bad neighborhood in need of a new Troop. There are plenty of "Troops in Trouble" down here, but in my old age I prefer to work as an Assistant Scoutmaster just down the street (the county's largest Troop), as well as staff "SM&ASM Specific Training" and "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills" for the District. But not much of a demand for OKPIK down here Beavah writes: Real live kids help keep us from bein' too convinced and strident about our pet theories. Strident? In "real life" I am easy-going: For the first two years in my current Troop I never mentioned the Patrol Method until our new Scoutmaster (and his wife, who was the Committee Chairman before that) were "blown away" by my version of the Patrol Method presentation when they attended SM&ASM Specific Training. Beaver is absolutely wrong about "real live kids" making anyone "less convinced" of the Boy Scout program as Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe it. "Real live kids" prove that when you pick the best natural leaders and separate their Patrols by 300 feet, Scouting begins to work just the way Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe it, even with Scouts who have never experienced the Patrol Method before. Anybody can do that. "Real live kids" prove that you can register 28% of an auditorium full of skeptical boys if you offer them the kind of adventure that Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe (a total of 70% will sign your list in front of their peers). That is above and beyond the best efforts of what Wood Badge trained volunteers and professionals can do, which is what? 2%? 4%? 8%? So "real live kids" prove that anybody can do up to 14 times better than the fake CEO theory you learn in Wood Badge. It's easy: that: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm The 70% figure indicates that the potential for BSA Scouting (if we get rid of Wood Badge) is almost three times higher than my own 28% registered "real live kids," so the potential additional Scoutcraft marketshare is 35 times higher (if the current TAR is 2%) than the current Webelos III "Every Scout is a Leader" program. If Wood Badge really taught people how to think like CEOs, each and every Wood Badge Staffer would at test these methods so they could boost marketshare or dispute my findings. Judging from my Website, I'd say that the kind of adventure that Baden-Powell and Bill Hillcourt describe is still popular, despite what Wood Badge Staffers tell you. So far this week I have served the following numbers of page hits: 12/5/2010 12,579 12/6/2010 14,662 12/7/2010 13,373 12/8/2010 11,740 12/9/2010 11,246 Beavah writes: WB ain't perfect by any means, but then what is? Wood Badge is certainly perfect: The perfect cult! The place to debate the awesome destructive force of Wood Badge is here, no matter how many fellow-Beavers accuse me of being "a bit too strident about form and policy, rather than practical working substance." Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

Eagle92 writes: Not to be a stick in the mud, but Cub Scouts IS different than Boy Scouts. What Kudu promotes does not fit Cub Scouts 100% as it is Boy Scout oriented. Yes, I am also against turning Cub Scouts into Boy Scouts, but pchadbo seemed to be asking two questions: 1) How can I lay a foundation to prepare my Cubs for the Boy Scout program? 2) How can I prepare myself for the Boy Scout program? My answer to the first question is: Unstructured Play in the Woods. The point of Last Child in the Woods is that a passion for the outdoors comes from spending time there without adults trying to make the experience "meaningful." That is how I would run a Cub Program. As to the second question: The third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters contains 65 pages of information about Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method that Scoutmasters should be learning in Wood Badge, plus another thousand pages on how to run a Boy Scout Troop. Thanks everyone for your feedback on my Website! In addition to the vintage Patrol-based Scoutcraft, I find good modern adventure offered in a Troop program based on the new Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

Boys under 13 do not need "how-to" lessons in leadership. They learn more from a teenage-hero Patrol Leader who sets the example, than they do from us setting them up for "Controlled Failure." Words like "leader" and "leadership" have no meaning if the Patrols are not ready to be out on patrol without adult supervision, or at least camping 300 feet apart. I only used New Scout Patrols whenever a District Commissioner asked me to take over a "Troop in Trouble" (a unit with less than a half-dozen members). Such Troops are always a mess, so I would go out and recruit 15 new Scouts, put them under the protection of the strongest Scout whom I considered Trustworthy, then pit them against the outnumbered older Scouts in weekly Scoutcraft competitions and dodge ball. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

pchadbo writes: Joined last year as a new Tiger Parent with my son...someone who did not do Scouts... What training and/or skills should I as a CS leader possess and transfer to the boys in order to make the new Boy scouts a more "scout ready" (if that is a term) group. I really am interested in your answer as I am trying to make this the most rewarding experience I can for the boys. Most rewarding experience for the boys? Borrow a copy of Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder and allow the Cubs unstructured play in the woods without any adults trying to make it "meaningful." While they explore nearby, sit and read William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's two-volume masterpiece: Handbook for Scoutmasters (About $15 per volume): http://tinyurl.com/368exou Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

pchadbo writes: . . . why kick those of us in Cub Scouts who want to become better leaders in Scoutcraft AND "leadership theory" Scoutcraft? We kicked the Scoutcraft OUT of Baden-Powell's Applied Scoutcraft Course because it wasn't relevant to the "leadership" needs of indoor Den "Leaders." pchadbo writes: Wouldn't a Cub leader who is laying a foundation be a help to the Troops? No. Office "leadership" theory is not a foundation, it is a metaphor. The purpose of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge is to train Scoutmasters to get their Patrol Leaders out on patrol. Redefining the Beads to represent indoor "leadership" is like redefining those cool silver BSA Lifeguard whistles to represent a trendy corporate office course based on an extended "sink or swim" business metaphor. So why not kick everything related to swimming out of BSA Lifeguard train-the-trainer courses so that Den Leaders who never get wet can wear those cool silver whistles? Just move all that wet stuff to a course called "Introduction to Waterfront Leader Skills" that reduces adults responsible for training BSA Lifeguards to checking off first year Tenderfoot through First Class swimming skills. Think of how "inclusive" we would be! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

For what it is worth: More than a hundred things for Boy Scouts to do while they are awake: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Our neighborhood Troop does not allow electronics except in the car on long trips. Since they have never had a Scoutmaster who was a Scout in his youth, they tend to be focused on "Eagle." The Patrol Method? Not so much At 40+ Scouts the Troop is large by rural southern standards, so I have been slow to suggest changing Troop culture. However as an ASM, I do coordinate the backcountry trips (Scout led, 300 feet between Patrols, etc.). One Scout tried to smuggle a big yellow "emergency" radio on the last trip, which I took away because it was his first trip and it was just too heavy. At the "Roses & Thorns" session I reserved the right to ban heavy stuff, and bulky things like pillows until they get more experience, but I suggested MP3 players for future backpacking trips (only). The Scouts were shocked. Afterward, it occurred to me that most of the backpacking young adults I know outside of Scouting listen to mp3 players on the trail. Anyone have experience with Ipods on the trail in Scouting? Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

jblake47 writes: I watch the boys to see which one can and will do the best job for the troop and offer him the position. The success of the troop is solely in the hands of the SM who makes those decisions. If I think Joe will do the best job, he gets the offer. If not, I reserve the right to pull the rug out from under him and replace him with another leader. That is how Baden-Powell designed Scouting to work, except that he required the Scoutmaster to consult with the Court of Honor (PLC) or the Patrol as part of the process: 240. (i) A Patrol Leader is a Scout appointed by the S.M., in consultation with the Court of Honour or the Patrol concerned, to take charge of a Patrol of Scouts. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm However, once a Patrol Leader had been appointed in an established Troop, it was up to the Court of Honor to apply pressure to keep him from slacking off: Taking his Patrol on the same old eight-mile hike to the Old Mill every month, for instance: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

When I used New Scout Patrols, I tried to snag my best ex-SPL for the position. Once I picked our Eagle Scout high school football hero, of whom all the new sixth-grade Scouts already knew by reputation. Another time the best man for the job was an older "Emo" Scout, a NYLT Staffer whose blond hair was dyed black at the time. The new Scouts already knew of him by reputation as well: For his after-school fights and perennial detention Both were remarkably nurturing leaders, and both would get embarrassed by the younger boys' outspoken admiration. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction. http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

acco40 writes: Kudu - what is you opinion on teaching today's boys on how to use a GPS? See my thread: "GPS Wide Games" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=276229#id_276229 acco40 writes: I don't give a hoot that there were not GPS devices in 1916. Neither do I. Those six days sound splendid! There's nothing wrong with gadgets that get Scouts outdoors, as long as they do not replace map and compass skills. The point of the Congressional Charter (and Baden-Powell Scouting associations world-wide) is to preserve the Scoutcraft program of 1916. That does not prohibit adding stuff, but the goal of Leadership Development has always been to make Scoutcraft "optional." acco40 writes: As an adult, I also don't give a hoot about the fact that the boys improved their orienteering skills, how to read a topographical map and a GPS device. "As an adult," I do. acco40 writes: What I did care about was that the experience taught them about teamwork, leadership, responsibility with the added benefit that they had fun. My point exactly. It was the fun outdoor "experience" that "taught them about teamwork, leadership, and responsibility." If we replaced the NYLT Wood Badge course with six days of off-trail hiking (and nightly "Thorns and Roses" practical feedback) Patrol Leaders would come back as real-world "leadership" experts able to do what Patrol Leaders are supposed to do: Take their Patrols on Patrol! acco40 writes: Were you laid off by one of your hated "corporations" or something? I really don't understand your position. My position is clear enough. The only reason you do not "understand" is that you use "ad hominem" logic: "If you can't argue the facts, then argue the man." Boy Scout "Leadership Development" has always used "ad hominem" to replace that which is measurable (Scoutcraft) with "innovative" Fake Leadership formulas, and thereby drive boys away from Scouting. Presumably similar corporate Leadership techniques against internal critics (of replacing real and measurable assets with "innovative" toxic bundling) was what allowed these "hated corporations" to lose tens of trillions of dollars two years ago, in the same way that the BSA drove away 30% of membership. acco40 writes: We know that some of the first aid skills that were taught in 1916 are patently wrong now. Those specific first aid procedures are not mentioned in the requirements (then as now) precisely because they are subject to change. The 1916 program is a good game: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm acco40 writes: I don't interpret the Congressional charter the same way you do. The emphasis is to promote the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others (be prepared and service), teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance and kindred virtues using the methods in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. To me, the methods in use were how (not what) the boys were taught You are dead wrong. Scoutcraft is clearly listed as one of the three "Purposes" of Scouting: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, 1) the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, 2) to train them in scoutcraft, 3) and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. You leave "Scoutcraft" out because the purpose of Leadership Development has always been to leave Scoutcraft out. acco40 writes: We still have the same goals or aims as before. No. Not even the so-called "Three Aims" are specifically listed because the "Aims and Methods of Scouting" are only a theory: One that corporate Boy Scout Leadership Development abused to subvert an Act of Congress. Certainly none of the specific "goals or aims" trotted out to defend the replacement of Scoutcraft with Fake Leadership are mentioned in the Charter: Stuff like "Ethical and Moral Choices," or the 1965 goals upon which are based the CSE's current attack on Scoutcraft: "Character and Leadership." acco40 writes: We still market the BSA by the methods we utilize - which includes adult association, the uniform, the outdoors, advancement/awards, etc. And how well does that marketing work? 2% TAR? 6%? Whatever that number may be, any Scouter can register 28% TAR above and beyond the BSA's best efforts, if he "markets" the adventure of Scoutcraft alone: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

jamdice writes: I was hoping for her to play something meaningful, not so much to my sons, but something Scout-related. Baden-Powell considered three tunes important enough to transpose for his book Scouting for Boys: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm Eengonyama was sung (and preformed) at the very first Boy Scout campfire at Brownsea, and every following night that week. I'm sure that most Africans would point out that you can not get more "classical" and Scout-related than that! If you or anyone else finds this information helpful, I would greatly appreciate it if someone could make sound-files of "The Scout's Rally" and "The Scout's Call" for the thousands of Scouts and Scouters who visit the Website every day. Oh, and the sound-file of "Eengonyama" was done by one of my Scout's little sister 15 years ago. A more "spirited" version might be closer to B-P's description as well. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

acco40 writes: Also, keep in mind that many possible outing locations require an adult (not a BSA rule but a legal rule) such as state and national parks, private campgrounds, etc. The operative word being "many." Remember that a National "Park" is not the same as a National "Forest." The "primitive" (backpacking) areas of National Forests do not require adults, and the same is probably true for most State Park trails that begin at a "Trail Head" where you park in an unpaved or ungated area. Remember that before the invention of "Leadership Development," Patrol Camping referred to what we now call "backpacking." The vision of "private campgrounds" and "contracts" implies sitting around a developed campsite like a Webelos III Patrol. Eagle92 writes: Kudu, With all due respect, it looks like some councils do require a tour permit for "patrol and squad" outings. How exactly does that contradict anything I wrote? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

thriftyscout writes: So what is a typical Patrol Outing? For me the typical Patrol Outing has always been associated with Troop backpacking trips. The whole Troop "backpacks" a very short distance on Friday night and establishes a "basecamp." A Patrol that I have trained and trust then sets off Saturday morning for an overnight loop trip and returns Sunday. Meanwhile, promising Patrols do short wilderness day hikes on Saturday (sometimes accompanying the overnight Patrol for a couple of miles), while new Scouts have a more typical "static" campout at the base. National Forests are the most flexible in this regard. As for Tour Permits, I have never in 50 years filed one for a Patrol Outing. In fact I am somewhat puzzled by the near-unanimous assumption that a Scoutmaster can somehow control this once the genie of Adventure is let out of the bottle. The idea that a Patrol must get its Scoutmaster's approval goes back to William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's day. But back then it simply never occurred to us to ask. BSA Scouting has always been very different from Scouting in the rest of the world because our Fake Leadership theories were rigidly against Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" until Hillcourt's "lite" version (called the "Patrol Method") began to take hold in the 1930s. See the "Six Principles of Boy-Work" in the first Handbook for Scout Masters: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Apparently asking the Scoutmaster's permission was a compromise between the Patrol System and the Patrol Method. For contrast, read John Thurman's "transcript" of a Patrol System's typical Court of Honor (we call them "PLC Meetings") in which the Patrol Leaders not only inform the Scouters, SPL, and other PLs of their Patrol Outings after the fact, but then tell the adults which of their Scouts advanced a rank in the process! (Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Scout Spirit and "POR" Requirements are all unique to the BSA's adult-controlled version of "Boy Led" Scouting): http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm The reality is that even back when Scouting was popular, we camped with kids in the neighborhood that were in different Troops, or not even Scouts at all. Permission from our parents was all we needed. By the time we got our driver's licenses, non-Scouts made up the majority of my camping Patrol. This mobility combined with our discovery of Svea 123 stoves, backpack waistbelts (a big deal at the time), cheap tents, and Mormon dried foods transformed our Patrol Outings into week-long expeditions in the Adirondack High Peaks, two hundred miles away. Forty years later as Scoutmaster, some of my Patrols (including those of the District Commissioner's sons) did exactly the same thing (but driving 340 miles in each direction), in the years after I first took the DC and the entire Troop up Mt. Marcy, New York State's highest peak. Even the frequent Patrol Outings I wrote about in my Winter 1997 article in Scouter Magazine about one of our twelve-year-old Patrol Leaders ("Marijus") all took place without Tour Permits! Here too, less than half of the "Red Skins Patrol" were registered in the BSA. Perhaps other Scoutmasters park outside of the Scouts' homes on weekends to prevent all of this from happening! The warning signs are when the Scouts start preparing their own dried foods, and buying their own tents & backpacking stoves thriftyscout writes: After all the conflicting answers, I can see that this is going to require a conversation with the DE to see where our local Council stands on Patrol "activities" and what they are willing to condone. Now that I have retired to the rural south, I like to bring in our local DE for my "surprise ending" of the Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific Training: That the final "E" in "EDGE" stands for Enabling Patrol Outings That being said, not all DEs are created equal. You are likely to find "conflicting answers" at your own local Council office. So you might want to do your homework and find out how much your DE knows about Patrol Outings before asking him point-blank if it is OK. Other, more senior Scouting professionals might be a better choice. Here again it helps to be on the Council's training staff and/or a FOS presenter. Likewise even if policy turns against true Patrol Outings, remember that most Councils also have groups of volunteers who come in to help fix up the camps. You (and your older Scouts) might want to join them. I have always found large Boy Scout camps to be the very best venue to get started on the next stages of overnight "Patrol Outings" after first separating the Patrols 300 feet on Troop campouts. Don't be in too much of a rush! Remember that in the BSA, a Patrol Leader had six months of training: Which included hiking and camping in a "Green Bar Patrol" of Patrol Leaders (with the Scoutmaster as the Patrol Leader, and the SPL as his APL) before setting off on his own Patrol Hikes: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm For Scoutmasters who think that they actually have control over what their Patrols do away from the Troop, and therefore may depend on Tour Permits: One bellwether of "nancy" Leadership Development's final victory over the Patrol Method might be found in The Scoutmaster Handbook. As I understand it, a new printing has just been released which contains substantial revisions. If anyone has verified (from the date on the page facing the table of contents) that they have this new 2010 printing, please look to see if the words "and overnighters" have been cut (as they have been on the National Website) from the following passage on page 22: Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules.... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

BartHumphries writes: Perhaps we'll try 100'. Nothing wrong with starting at 100 feet! Likewise when a Patrol is immature and/or insists on electing an incompetent Patrol Leader, they should camp at a distance from the adults proportional to their abilities. Remember that when the Patrol System (and much later, the "Patrol Method") was the dominate force in Scouting, a Patrol was run by the Patrol's most competent leader. Both the Patrol System and the Patrol Method stuck with the Patrol's best leader for as long as he was the Patrol's best leader, in the same way that Troops still stick with their best Lifeguards. Mike F writes: 1. Keep patrols separate. If two or more patrols camp close together away from SPL/Adults, problems will often escalate. That is important. The goal is NOT to keep the adults away from a clump of Patrols, but to separate all the Patrols so as to develop the responsibility of each Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. Beavah writes: Sometime soon maybe you'll have a patrol hike and camp for a weekend on their own, so that they can use all of their T-2-1 knowledge like navigation and site selection and such. Then if you're really wicked, yeh can plant a first aid scenario somewhere along their trail and really give 'em a workout. Wicked or not, in the rest of the world a series of at least five such backwoods incidents was a requirement for the Venturer Proficiency Badge, which was required for Bushman's Cord (the equivalent of Life Scout): 1) Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part. The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, Signalling over distance. Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops. 2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with not more than 3 other Scouts. Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a backpack. Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food. The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required. See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm OldGreyEagle writes: Somewhere, sometime, Kudu will be reading this and smiling Yes! When it also becomes common to brag of taking the next step: Reporting these "Old-School" Adventures to auditoriums of skeptical sixth-graders to register an additional 28% of them (six months after all Webelos II Crossovers), I will be able to retire happily 70% of the audience will (in front of their peers) sign your clipboards asking you to call their parents so they can become a Boy Scout, so it should be easy to do better than my 28%. The desire for Adventure satisfied by the "Real" Patrol Method is all about human nature, not passing fads: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm thriftyscout writes: I don't think many Scout camps are set up for Patrol vs. Troop camping. It helps to be a training staffer and/or Friends of Scouting presenter, and then use your contacts to find what you are looking for. Look for Scouting professionals or senior volunteers who were Scouts before 1972, or are serious outdoorsmen in their own right. Ask the camp's Ranger and/or volunteer staff. Most (if not all) Scout camps (both large and small) have "Primitive Camping Areas" (meaning no running water or latrines). The common belief that a local Scout camp can not handle Patrols camping 300 feet apart is usually based on the assumption that every Patrol site needs to be near a road. Consider purchasing a couple lightweight backpacking stoves for your most mature Patrols, so that they can "backpack" into the Primitive Camping Area without heavy equipment. See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm thriftyscout writes: I will keep an eye out for that SMHB version. The best source is AddAll.Com. Currently you can find a two volume set for $24.95. Volumes printed in the 1930s are made from much better paper, which makes a difference if you read all 1,150+ pages, but later printings of Volume One include the six month Patrol Leader Training Course (pages 208i-208xvi). See: http://tinyurl.com/368exou "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" can also be found at the following URL: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm I updated the reading assignments to reference the current Scoutmaster & Patrol Leader handbooks, but in retrospect that was a bad idea because the current material does not include much real "how to" information on the Patrol Method beyond organizational charts and sitting in PLC meetings An old Gilwell Patrol Leader Training Course (for multiple Troops) can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell/index.htm Eagle92 writes: 2) what I will say will be sacrilege to Kudu, "Sacrilege" implies abstract beliefs or theories. Spacing your competent Patrols 300 feet apart is the experience of Adventure. It is self-evident as soon as you dare to try it. Eagle92 writes: but I got say it anyway. The patrol method works if the leaders are willing to stay out of the way, even if patrols are only 10 feet away from each other (caps removed). Scouting is a Game: The Patrol Method "works" if you reduce the distance between Patrols from 300 feet to 10 feet in the same way that football "works" if you reduce the field from 300 feet to 10 feet. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I haven't tried it yet, but the book Freezer Bag Cooking: Trail Food Made Simple might solve the problem of backpacking stoves which only have two settings: Blowtorch and Off. http://tinyurl.com/25mv6yx

83Eagle writes: However, I do take issue with you repeatedly using Girl Scouting as a mocking description of how you perceive Boy Scouts to be. That is the point of this thread: Get rid of Scoutcraft so that Boy Scouts can be more like Girl Scouts. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu