Joni4TA

Whether or not the article screams for a local option I don't know. I am pretty sure as long as National leaves the policy as it stands, there won't be a local option. I certainly agree with the CO's decision to no longer sponsor the Cub Pack. They have to do what they feel is right, and it is their choice. I don't believe inviting opposers to the BSA's policy, to join and seek change from within, will be productive. It would be similar to encouraging fundamentalist muslims to become members of the Christian faith, hoping to make them dump their belief in Christ and worship to their Mohammed or Allah instead. I see that as counter-productive. Opposers aren't wanting assimilation or tolerance, they want to change a private organization's beliefs to reflect their own. Better to just not become members and not support the organization. There are other options for adult volunteers in youth enrichment programs out there.

encourager, I am a Committee Member too, and it hasn't precluded me from being involved in my son's Troop. I am actually somewhat mentoring our new SPL right now. It helps that I am the Advancement Chair, that I coordinate all BOR's, that I keep all the Troop files and library at my house, am the Troop webmaster and keep the online calendar updated for the unit, and I am also the Fundraising chair. I have a lot of vital information to pass on to the SPL that can help him, I make copies for him, print stuff from the internet and all that jazz. He'll get the attendance and give it to me so I can put it in our Troopmaster software program - etc. The SPL, SM and ASMs have learned they get regular reports from me on who needs what requirements, who has what partial Merit Badges, I print the calendar, keep the Unit Roster updated, etc. I don't get TOO involved in what I consider SM business, though I admit it's hard because I have had SM training too, and I am more available to our SPL than is the SM, because I am the only active Adult Leader who doesn't work outside the home. So I am the one that's able to make the runs to Council to put $ on the Scout account, pick up advancements, handle the tour permits and permission slips, the fundsraising, shuffle paperwork for or to whomever, etc. I prefer to define my role with the Troop as supportive to the whole, actually. I provide any member with any support they need, basically whenever they need it. As far as I know, everyone seems OK with my function in the Troop and seem appreciative?? I guess someone would say something if they weren't or felt I was over-stepping? I don't get involved in general at Troop meetings nor hang out with any Patrol to get in on what they're doing. I am usually "there" though - and see what's going on. If I see one of the boys doing something I believe is a safety issue I give it a second or two to see if one of the other boys will rectify the situation. If that doesn't help - I admit it - I will say something! Usually it's something like, (signs up) "Hey! your SPL is trying to run the meeting, let's give him your attention and stop goofing off!" In one case we had a boy who was asked repeatedly by the SPL and other Scouts to be quiet and listen, stop harassing them and pay attention, quit touching them, etc. He was having some trouble chattering, and keeping his hands and feet to himself. By the 4th incident I saw the kid had a pen in his hand and was pretending to stab another Scout in the neck, I admit it, I got concerned! And I told the boy - "****, your behavior is unacceptable! You have been asked SEVERAL times to settle down. This is your last warning! Next time you WILL be asked to leave the meeting!" At that point I felt I had no choice but to say something **shrug** Looking at PeteM's definition of adult leader roles, I guess you could say I am doing too much But I believe that almost everything I do falls under "Committee Responsibility" - I do try and stay out of all other aspects, unless I have something administrative in nature to offer or if there is a safety/disciplinary issue. Our SM lets the SPL and ASPL run the meetings and campouts, our ASMs are the SM's support, and our Committee supports the whole Unit. I don't know if this helps or not, but that's how it works in our Troop.

Truth or Lie? I don't know... there are world-renowned scientists on both ends of the spectrum with facts and logic to support their arguments. Regardless, the Nobel Peace Prize doesn't amount to much to me. They can give it to anyone they feel like. It doesn't make them internet inventors, dancers OR presidential election "winners" ... But I do like those nifty flourescent bulbs and I have replaced all my old light bulbs with them because they decreased my electric bill! I bought a hybrid SUV that gets 26mi to the gallon! And I let my kids use their shirts instead of napkins! I will however draw the line at only using 1 square of toilet paper. That's just going too far

It sounds to me like typical boy behavior, which was curtailed, got relayed to one of the parents and turned into "my son isn't as mean as your son" and parents got their knickers in a wad and overreacted! Simple miscommunication and apparently some adults who couldn't be calm enough to get to the truth of the story without freaking out first. Unless there is some history of physical stuff going on between Scout 1 and Scout 2, and Scout 1's parent thinking his/her child is never to blame while always blaming Scout 2 for stuff that happens between them, I don't see how anyone outside those involved could have avoided this situation. The SM should have been informed of the situation before the end of the campout though - so he wasn't blindsided. And probably both Scout 1 and Scout 2, along with both their parents, might have been informed by a non-involved, witnessing adult at pick-up time, after the campout as well. That's the only thing I can think of that might have changed the outcome slightly? Maybe then the emails wouldn't have started flying? But there's no way to know for sure - you can never know how someone is going to react to something.

Our newly elected SPL is "young" in Rank and Experience - In age, he is 16. It's hard for a seasoned parent/adult to settle and effect focus in a group of adolescent boys successfully, let alone a 16yr old peer. The things I have found to be most useful in our case, is to provide the SPL with enough tools, resources, and encouragement as I can so he can effectively and confidently be the SPL. And then as an adult leader, back him up with the support of discipline if and when behavior issues come up. Our new SPL is only a First Class Scout. We have 2 Eagles, 3 Life, and 2 Star Scouts that outrank him, and about 8 active Scouts that don't. So he sits right in the middle of the Spectrum as far as experience goes. Plus, he's never been in a leadership role, has an overwhelmed feeling, and isn't as strong in personality and assertiveness as some of the higher-ranking boys. We can't afford to send all elected leaders to Cedar Badge or the more formal NJLIC, YSDC or NYLT because frankly it's not offered often enough locally or regionally, and it's too darn expensive to send them to Philmont. We have a VERY humble Troop. So there's always the old faithful Scoutmaster's JLT. A few years back I converted a bunch of copies of the JLT video for my former Council from VHS to DVD. And I made a copy for my own personal library. OK, It's a little outdated - but at least it's readily available for me. Obviously you can tailor the activities and discussion around modern times. But I think it's important to have SOMETHING to offer new junior leaders. They genuinely want some guidance I've found. Other things our SPL has told me were useful - PAPERWORK - Duty Rosters, Troop Meeting plans, the support of the forms that come from our Troopmaster software. Anything that makes it easier for him to stay organized and to PLAN AHEAD! Our SPL is new at this, but he has some outstanding organizational skills and understands the importance of an agenda - to come to a meeting with a plan on paper, to go on a camping trip with a duty roster that's posted on a clipboard, tree or table. This way everyone else knows what they are responsible for and there's no constant badgering of the other boys to get their job done or please do this or please do that - it's all planned and posted. This makes it easier for the SPL to delegate ONCE - and then if the boys have any questions, he can refer them to the PLAN! Before I introduced some of the paperwork to him, he was TRYING to delegate stuff on campouts and meetings, but the other boys were not cooperating very well, and he kept saying how it was easier to just not get confrontational with them or repeat himself a thousand times and do the tasks HIMSELF! The duty roster he found especially useful because he said it felt like it was a "final word" so to speak - nothing left for argument. There was less chaos involved, and even the adults knew what was going on so we could more effectively support him if we needed to. So far, this is where we are at in our Troop. It's baby steps, and always a work in progress, but this is what seems to be working for us.

We don't do the Trails End prizes either. They were cool when the boys were cubbies, but it seems like by the time the boys get into Troop level age, they already have all the stuff - same as the prizes - and it's not such a hot incentive anymore. With Popcorn sales, the Troop splits the commission 50/50 with the Scout getting half, based on the amount of hours they sold popcorn during show & sell/deliver. And then they get their Take Order commission as well. Our Council this year are the ones that are doing this Fill it Up promo with the bike, iPod and color TV. Trails End Fill it Up Program is giving out a patch and a certificate if you mail them a copy of the filled order form as well. I am glad there are least those incentives because our Troop would not be able to afford even an extra $1 for additional incentive! Our Troop also does two bake sales per year and all the sales profit from that are divided by scout hour worked, and go straight to Scout accounts to defer the cost of summer camp. I guess my biggest problem with how we are doing this fundraising, is that the Troop almost never has any money! And the boys' don't WANT to sell Popcorn, they don't WANT to bake cookies, cupcakes and muffins, and they also don't seem to WANT to do anything else! I am tempted to let them have exactly what they DO seem to want, which is a whole bunch of NOTHING - and a as a result, a DEVOID outdoor program! I wonder sometimes if that would wake these kids up to the fact that it's THEIR Troop - and they have to own it and run it, lock, stock and barrel! I guess I need to find out what they ARE motivated to sell - because as it sits right now, it seems like that would be a great big ZERO - nothing! Parents are frankly tired of being nickel & dimed to death - we charge them for recharter/registration, boys life, a flat rate for each camping trip they attend, extra $5 for groceries from camping trips, any additional costs the parents are asked for money, then again there are the dues - $1 per meeting. It's ridiculous! I am a parent and I am tired of it and yet I understand WHY we need to do this. If we didn't constantly go to the parents for money, we would have none..... oh wait, we already DON'T have any! The boys are about to get their PLC together and do the annual plan with the SM. I think I am going to be talking to the SPL in depth about some of this stuff and see if he can't effect some discussion in his PLC about our inherent lack of motivation to earn money for the unit. They can't go on thinking money either grows on trees or that it's just sitting around in their parents' wallets/purses either! Their program won't be so fun if there's no way to pay for it!

Very cool story, and it sure is a small world!

All I've ever had to do when seeking a list of MBCs was ask the registrar and they either print one out or email it to me. I have seen plenty of other Council and District websites, too, where their MBC list is online on their website. I manage our Troop website and I am planning to include a document that lists all our MBCs and what we will counsel. It'll be searchable by anyone on the net as well. So I , too, would like to know ahead of time if this is not okie-dokie! Thanks!

Lisabob, I got the list from the Council's Head Registrar via email. So I emailed her back to verify that everyone on the list was truly only an MBC for "Troop Only" as indicated on the list that was sent to me. I haven't received a response yet, but feel like it has to be an error or something as well. It could be I am reading the report wrong too. She sent it as a plain .txt file, 25 pages, and I just opened it again, under "selcted options" it says - Badges: ALL, Include Troop Only Counselors: NO. But then under every MBC's name, it says - "Troop Only Badges" and then under that it lists the MB's they counsel. I am hoping that I just can't seem to read the report right and there is some invisible line between "Troop Only Badges" and the list of MB's they will teach, which indicates there are no Troop Only Badges on the list, and if a MB is listed, it's in fact NOT a "Troop Only" MB. Anyway, no word back from the regsitrar yet!

P.S. Just wanted to clear something up about writing letters to parole officers and "vouching" for a parolee. My ex-husband was a parolee. He got out of state prison and within a couple months sought visitation with our son. In order for him to have the court-ordered visitation with our son at the time, I had to write a letter to his parole officer with my contact information, where my Ex-H was going to meet me, etc. I lived in a different county than my EX. I wasn't vouching for him for anything other than informing the Parole Officer of a legitimate reason why my Ex would have to leave the county of his jurisdiction. Also, because of the distance between counties, my Ex planned to stay overnight two nights and had to provide the location, contact numbers, and receipt, for proof of where he was planning on staying. Again, not a voucher, just a formality - a way for the parole officer to keep track of the parolee. Interestingly enough, over the weekend, my Ex ended up working on our son's pinewood derby car with him, and taking our son to his Pack's Pinewood Derby. My son took 1st place! They had an excellent time, and our boy was beaming from ear to ear. He hadn't seen his father in over 3 years at the time. I know that ALL parolees are not bad news in the father kingdom. My Ex would have been OK with not being able to attend an overnight or something where others felt uncomfortable because of his record, though. And the last thing my Ex would have wanted was legal attention being drawn to him (lawsuit), etc.! That one baffles me on your case, which is why I want to believe they are full of bologna and just spouting off at the mouth in anger!

Document everything! I don't have any other advice - what has already been given is plenty. The group of people causing the issue are hopefully full of hot air, and after their initial blow-ups will hopefully fade into the woodwork and never surface again. If they plan on pursuing anything (especially a lawsuit), so be it! The BSA is a private org. and as long as things are done according to the BSA policy there is no leg for a contender to stand on for their alleged lawsuit. Good luck & keep us posted

I don't think you are literally obligated to please ANYONE. Sure, we all try and work compromises with people and accomodate for certain situations. But I would say if you are the Leader, you have to be able to Lead effectively, and that means having enough of your own time to do so. If you can't make changes that will suit the others, you just CAN'T - and they will have to accept the word "NO". If they don't accept it, they will also have to eventually understand that they can only control their own selves, and not the actions nor words of anyone else. Do only what you CAN do, and try to let the rest go. It'll only end up stressing you out if you don't.

Out of 18 boys in our Troop - we've had ONE BOY fill up his Popcorn order form this year! (so far that's all that's been reported anyway) In our Council, after a boy fills up his trails end popcorn order sheet (take order), he gets his name in the hat, and they are doing weekly drawings for items like 19" TVs, mountain bikes and iPods. I thought this would be a better motivator than some (most) of the prizes Trails End has to offer. That's not to say that the prizes aren't decent, but it's been my experience at Boy Scout level, that the boys are less interested in the prizes offered and more interested in the commission/Scout bucks they can earn instead. 1 boy out of 18 has sold 25 lines items off the order form! Just 1! I am giving that kid Kudos, no doubt - just curious how many other Boy Scouts out there are that interested in the Fill It Up campaign??

Good point OGE - very good point. It would be hard for me not to feel partially responsible or at the very least, empathetic, if a boy got the boot from Scouting for any reason, but I understand it wouldn't have been "ME" to blame. I would just feel horrible about it all. And I was just trying to say, at THIS POINT in the situation, I don't see how I can do anything except watch more closely and get more involved with the unit - one more set of eyes so to speak. I, too, fear some future issue may arise. But judging by the track record of this unit, it won't be a boy who raises the next issue, it'll be a Scouter! Half the time it seems more trouble ensues via adult issues than boy issues. That is really disheartening, too!

The old days - when the majority of folks were proud to care about their fellow man, and DID the right thing for all concerned Today - when plenty of folks only care about themselves, and they cease to care if their fellow man even exists; they do most things only thinking about themselves It's the world of "Me'ism" now - it sucks I am sorry you caught the brunt of such actions scoutldr. Hopefully things will get better.

There's no rush here to just deal with Psycho Female, though she is a REAL threat to the boys, and to our Unit... there's just nothing for our Troop to go on, based on BSA policy, for hopping down the proverbial witch-hunt trail here. I thought the important thing was that we informed someone right? So the CC did! The CC informed the DE, with exactly what they were told by Psycho Female. So what's left? The boy's parents were informed, too, because we felt it was appropriate to let the parents know about the public MySpace and the inappropriate relationship their son was having with Psycho Female. The boy was told under no circumstances was he allowed to have ANY relationship with PFS. The boy was also told to edit or remove the MySpace page. His parents also told us he is currently in counseling, apparently for unrelated issues, and may be acting out on the MySpace, in an avenue where he felt he could, where he believed there would be no consequences. Shall I insist the boy be removed from Scouting because he had disturbing stuff on his MySpace? After all, is everyone on the internet always completely honest when posting things on the world wide web? Do people always post as completely true and given fact?? Do I have grounds to throw a boy out of Scouting based on what I have, or do I really just have a darn good reason to keep a close and watchful eye, and keep communications open?

Beavah - Not sure if the boy can get there or not when it comes to the entirety of the BSA Swimmer Test. I'm certainly not a professional on the subject. But I have to believe that if the boy's Occupational Therapist and his parents do not believe he will - they must know something more than I do about his individual condition and future prognosis, know what I mean? Is it right to forbid him to move past First Class Scout in the hopes he will "get there" some day, hold him off in Advancement - make him try and try and try again to get past that swimmer test, and just wait and see if he can do it by the time he's 18? I think that would be a fate far worse than the substitution of one requirement. But that's why those folks that make the big bucks and have the knowledge are the ones that have to make the final determination. All I've done is move the paperwork through to make the official request. I have no real opinion on the matter because I am not educated enough to even dictate one. I hope the Council Adv. Committee makes the right decision for the boy, whatever that may be. I just really wish the system was more uniform on this type of thing. We have professional Scouters that haven't a clue as to where to go or what to do about this sort of situation. We spend months at the unit level trying to figure it all out and try to use what we feel is a common sense approach, just to be told it's not enough and we still need a mountain of paperwork returned to have the Scout considered. We're given paperwork that has nothing to do with scout rank and all to do with merit badges, as ASM915 states. I don't know... maybe in time it'll be easier to understand for ALL BSA'ers, from the unit level on up, and we'll all be on the same page.

THANK GOD, I am GLAD I didn't just pick up a phone and start telling what I THOUGHT I knew to the SE!! It would have been a grave mistake and probably ruined a boy's life to boot. Understand, the original information I received was, and I quote, "Psycho Female Scouter has made a complaint about something that happened on one of our campouts and supposedly we have 2 gay scouts in our Troop." Then MY MIND went into high speed.... Our CC called an emergency meeting prior to the weekend. Scoutmaster, 3 Committee Members, Asst. Scoutmaster - to discuss this. 1) The first allegation from Psycho Female Scouter went directly to our CC. Psycho Female said to the CC, "Hey you have 2 gay Scouts in your Troop - what are you going to do about it?" - NOTHING MORE, no names, no specifics, no NOTHING. Our CC did not ask the Psycho any questions, and Psycho didn't offer details. 2) The second allegation that ALSO came from Psycho Female Scouter was that Psycho Female brought forth written complaints from a few members, apparently stemming from a campout where there was an argument that ensued between the Scoutmaster and his wife. This took place about 4 months ago. Psycho Scouter solicited information from a couple of our Scout parents, and got their kids to write up statements about the argument, citing how the Scoutmaster's wife was disruptive and how she should be banned from all future campouts. I THANK GOD I had a little patience - I didn't want to just start calling folks at Council, but I would have if it came down to it - I didn't know EXACTLY what the details were, and I apparently mixed up the two issues and made them into one, when they were partially unrelated. The only thing the issues do have in common are that they came from the same person! Both of Psycho Female's "allegations" have already been reported to our DE. In fact, the DE and highers-up have asked our Unit to keep a chronological file on our dealings with Psycho Female, and apprise them of anything that goes down, as soon it happens. I feel TONS better! And our entire Troop's adult leadership are now keeping our eyes and ears WIDE OPEN in case anything further brings up red flags, from any direction, whether it be from allegedly gay Scouts to our friendly neighborhood Psycho Female Scouter/Stalker! Seeing how Psycho Female Scouter has accused our DE of being gay, and now 2 of the Scouts in our Troop - I can't think District/Council looks on this as anything more than rhetoric. Regardless, I am glad I waited to find out the details and didn't just start making phone calls. I can't help but think how disastrous this would have been if I HAD called the SE, not knowing all the facts. Does this mean we do or do not have a gay Scout in our unit? I don't know. I really have no way of knowing FOR CERTAIN unless one of our boys says it's so or behaves in a way that makes it known. Of course if Psycho Female knows more than what she told the CC, maybe we'll be revisiting the situation again. Until then... back to business as usual!

Gee... my husband received his 15yr Veteran Award a few years back. He didn't buy the pin, it was given to him along with a certificate of thanks or something like that. In any case, I didn't include his youth service time that I recall (I filled out the paperwork for him - it was a surprise award). Regardless, he is very proud to wear that pin. It isn't "just a pin" for us - it's our family history... With Mom, Dad, 2 sons and 4 daughters - ALL having been SCOUTS, that pin means a lot.

I wonder if that's the sort of reason for the big push on Adult Training everywhere - because of situations like described... where as FScouter mentioned - the Boy's leadership failed him, and perhaps things should have been more closely scrutinized at the earliest rank levels. Waiting until the Eagle BOR is not effective, obviously.

Personally, I don't even like the switchbacks. They are not flattering to the female figure in the least. And one more question: Why is it that all epalmer84's posts come in duplicate?

Be Prepared - to move as often as the BSA wants you somewhere else... lots of overtime I hear too, yes. A boatload of PR on the 24/7 clock, and many thankless tasks. On the flip side, I am quite sure, as does any career; it has its rewards as well. It's probably not for everyone. But the old salty seasoned Pro Scouters that I have known have been some of the most awesome and dedicated folks I have ever met.

I am so sorry for your loss Eamonn ***HUGS***

Thank you! If I understaood right, the Committee should have all that paperwork for consideration as early as tomorrow! And as for the jumping through hoops, I think the only show I might qualify for is David Letterman's Stupid Pet Tricks!

Wouldn't you know.... every single one of them has listed that they only want to teach MBs for their personal Troops only - no one else!! What's up with that? No one wants to share their resources or what? Is it the same for ya'll out there? Are you an MBC for just the Troop you are affiliated with or did ya check the box that says "Counsel in my District Only" or "Council", on the MBC application? We're updating our applications right now - and I am not going to be stingy. I am going to go with Council Wide. Why limit a resource for the boys like that?