John-in-KC

I was just on the phone with my District Commissioner. The light blinked on. Yes, the below is speculation, but I'll bet a steak dinner on it. We volunteers are coming at this, looking at what's needed for the youth to succeed. Irving is looking at the issue of Active in regards to the membership scandals. They want an identifiable metric in the program materials; one they can point to when they swoop in on a council and audit membership, or when an are United Way or muckracking newspaper does the same. What happens to us? Pass the screwdriver, please... we've been had. My (hopefully merely cynical) thoughts.

Oak Tree, At the moment, it came from the folks on USSCOUTS.org who parse advancement program items in great detail. I have heard the 2010 edition of ACP&P has not hit the Scout Shops yet. I will be asking my DE to pick up a copy of 2010 Requirements. Ed, The point I was making was not about the content, it was about the micromanagement of the National Council. The latitude to make decisions on the ground gets removed as the "big organization" publishes ever more explicit guidance. Unfortunately, if you look at any franchising system out there, that's the common path of the moment ... remove any variation by the franchisee for any reason. Sigh.

Like so many others, thank you for wanting to give a quality program to your den and pack. From the scouting.org website, here's a host of program support materials: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CubScoutOutdoorProgramGuidelines.aspx Here's the trick you need to learn: There are BOUGHTEN program materials (you pay) and there are BIN ITEM program materials (they're free). The difference is the stock number: A dash, such as 13-550, means the item is free. 13-550, as NE-VI-Beaver pointed out, is Shooting Sports for Cub Scouting. As I understand it, almost all the BSA literature in the bin item system is now in pdf format. If there is something you want, send an email or call your friendly DE. He can get to all of it, and then shoot you a copy. Hope this helps.

skeptic: usscouts.org is a network of volunteers One of the organizers gave the address at our Lodge banquet a few years back. Tremendous to listen to!

Ken, As I said earlier, as AM just reinforced: Your COR is the player here. Simply put: You ... Don't ... Count. You're a Scoutmaster. You're an end user, implementing program for a chartered partner. If the chartered partner (meaning IH/COR) are happy, then all is well as far as your unit is concerned. Get the COR involved.

Would a card-carrying member of the Uniform Police care to introduce himself to Scoutfish?

Be careful of what you ask for; you just might get it. Three years ago, we were introduced to the new definition of active. People were all over the map and wanted the National Council to define it. Well, remember what we got? For some, including more than a few here, the definition wasn't good enough. Well, someone in the Council Solutions Group at National heard your complaints. A combination of volunteers and professionals have now told you exactly how to suck the egg. The additive comments strip away any remaining discretion which units and local Councils had. Beavah: Sadly, as you have told us, the R&R are the corporate policy stuff. The program guidance is what's available on the ground. I agree, this policy is not the answer, yet it is THE ANSWER GIVEN. So, for all of you who did not understand registered+engaged by leadership = Active, you now have it. Enjoy sucking eggs.

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting administers the religious emblems program for Roman Catholic Boy Scouts. They have a superb website. It is every bit the equal of PRAY's site. Their specific set of pages covering the religious emblems program are at: http://www.nccs-bsa.org/emblems/index.php Alassa, if you have further questions, there is a drill in on the NCCS site. Since you say you are in Central Texas, you are in Region 10. There is a further drill-in to find your Dioscean Catholic Committee on Scouting: http://www.nccs-bsa.org/contacts/region10.php I trust this helps. Walk with Him (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

If a Troop is going to require full uniforming, then it also needs to provide experienced uniforms and opportunities to raise money for uniforms. Not all youth members have families which can afford a uniform. The times right now are not easy. Would you rather have a youth properly uniformed who cannot go to camp this summer, a youth who is going to camp but doesn't have full uniform, or offer the youth a way to do both? Now, you say your Scoutmaster is jeans and shirt? Then, that's the example the program side is giving to the youth membership. I think you need to look at the adults first. If you're going to play full uniform, set the example, get the Scouters in uniform. BTW, what are the expectations of the IH and COR? BTW, how are the Committee people who are sitting the BOR dressed? If they are not at least in business casual (slacks/polo), then do we not have a situation of "do as I say, not as I do?" There are lots of other measures of a Troop I'll look at before I look at uniforms...

Same thing witha scout. The Oath and Law may define exact words, but in life, things are not so black and white. What I'm talking about with Scouts is the kid who shows up at scouts one nightm but goes and spray paints houses the next night. Maybe performs his POR perfectly, but then you find out how he snuck out of his bedroom window to go to a party that mom and dad said no to. You're confusing Rah-rah-sis-boom-bah spirit with Scout Spirit. The entire concept of Scout Spirit is to set the Ideals Method and the Character Aim of Scouting into the young man, such that he embraces values good people honor and expect in adult society. The items you cited to me are no-brainers: This hypothetical young man is not living the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life. OBEDIENT covers the civil law as well as parental leadership. It's not HELPFUL to tag a building. If he were my Scout, I'd have no problem inviting my UC, the DAC, and my COR to a friendly cup of coffee and thinking through how to deal with the young man. As I said earlier, the Oath and the Law are things that work every hour of every day, period. We want them graven on kids hearts. In the real world, I had, long ago, a young trooper who was STRAC ... I mean his uniform was flawless, his performance of duty was flawless, he was a good troop; right up to the day before we were to deploy to Fort Drum NY for a 6 week field problem. He found ways to keep himself from going. About six weeks after we returned, one day we had a battalion formation at lunchtime. Battalion Commander called him to the front of the formation, then he called Army CID agents to take him away. He'd been dealing. Moral of the story: Scum which tries to use performing a duty perfectly as their cover do break their cover, sooner or later. Point is this: If you try to hide being a bad actor, it eventually fails. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ETA: Ed is right. Even at Eagle, the requirement for the conference is participate. That's not true of the Scoutmaster Signature on the Eagle Application, though: It specifically calls for UNIT APPROVAL, from a LEADER (and if the SM is delegating this signature, he has no right of complaint whatsoever) and the CC. These signatures happen before the app goes to Council for preliminary certification. The Scoutmaster has a vote in whether or not the Scout will advance to Eagle.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Scoutfish: You may want to read BSA REQUIREMENTS #33015. There is a standard for Scout Spirit: "Live the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday life." That means 24/7 or 168/1 or every single day. All 12 points. All 3 promises in the Oath. Yes, it's a high bar. It's meant to be. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As for me, it would be a tough call. I know one thing: If I had a case coming up where I felt I'd have a problem signing an Eagle app, I'd be on the phone to my Unit Commissioner, COR, and District Advancement Chairman in advance. Feedback is a gift, and I'd be asking for all the feedback I could get. ETA: I think the difference between "Live" and "Demonstrate" is that 3d parties (the folks the Scout lists as his references) are usually asked to weigh in on his character in the Eagle process. Certainly that's the focus in my Council. The Scout has to live the Oath and Law in front of others such that they think he's an example to others. My thoughts.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

BklynEagle, I can answer that: I have come to the conclusion... ...That one useless man is called a Disgrace. ...That two are called a Law Firm. ...And that three or more become a CONNNNNNGRESSSS!

EagleSon is a university sophomore now. He was active into the 11th grade, in addition to band, HS Republicans, church youth group, senior choir at church, and the local barbershop chorus. Was he every week active? Not necessarily. When that term paper is due Friday, he tended to be working on the paper. In the run-up to music festival, or during Festival week, he was at school. What kept him? Good people who served as sounding boards for him. Sometimes, while they don't want Mom/Dad, they still crave Adult Association and Recognition. Gee... don't those sound like METHODS?

rjscout, The idea on shooting sports for Cubs is really simple: The safety factors, the liability risks to the Council are such that National wants Councils to control the experience end to end. By my read of G2SS, the Council has plenty of latitude to organize Cub events ... to include rental of the Council camp with field sports included. The Council then has to provide the trained staff, the weaponry, and the ammunition. Day and Resident camps are mention, but Family Camping on council property is also mentioned. So a unit can camp at a Council property and can request to have a range. Does that make sense?

I needed to follow up... My issue is not the program. It sounds like a good program. Execution of the program will tell. My issue is with the Key 3 for the event: Professional Staff Adviser, Volunteer Advisor, and local youth member in charge. Belayer and Mr Abernathy in separate posts said "We decided to leverage an existing event." That's ok for content, but why do that for schedule? This is Venturing. The target audience group is high school and college youth. This is also the Midwest. Schools go back in session in mid-August. Is the time to ask for significant travel commitments when the youth are doing what they are supposed to be doing -- learning? That's silly. Automatically, the commitment for this form of event drops off the edge of the universe. OGE, in Pennsylvania, has to justify to families time as well as cost. I don't know about his district, in mine this kind of trip is an unexcused absence. Belayer and Mr Abernathy both I assume live on the Missouri side of the Mississippi. They know what the General Assembly and the State Board of Education have set in terms of standards for school districts to draw budget dollars from the State. As I've mentioned in my earlier post, the timing of the event forecloses many college Venturers ... and they exist, I promise you. If you're in Army/Navy/Air Force ROTC, and you're on scholarship, you have duty to be where your Professor of Military Science tells you to be ... and if that's manning the salute gun at any number of football stadiums, you won't even think about breaking out to attend a Venturing event. Ditto if you're in one of the university marching bands: Game day is a class session. Want a fast way to lose a letter grade? Miss the game. Equally ditto if you are a pre-physical therapy major, and you're support staff to the team, or you're on a spirit squad. $250 an hour tuition, at a public university, is not chump change. Bump to a private school, and that same hour runs $750. So, is there a good reason GSLAC could not have adjusted the date to do this before HS students are in session, and college students are on campus? That's my question... They made a hoopla over "National Event", but the planning does not support the title.

BadenP, I may not agree with you on a lot of things, but on this one you are spot on.

Funny, when I look at the crews I see over here, there's a good spread of HS and university kids. Just because "it's always been that way" doesn't mean you don't revisit matters before you decide to take it to National. Look at OGE's comment above!!! He can't bring kids in from PA for this, not during the school year, and he's talking about HS Venturers. Of course, GSLAC is never wrong.

You have to love the Greater Saint Louis Area Council. They cannot even coordinate an event which for a program which has youth members into UNIVERSITY such that University level Venturers in driving distance can attend, if they are members of ROTC, band, or spirit squads: From MUTigers.com: Sept. 25 Miami (Ohio) (home game) From KUathletics.com 09/25/10 vs. New Mexico State (home game) From Iowa State, cyclones.com Sat, Sep 25 Northern Iowa (home game) From arkansasrazorbacks.com Sat, Sep 25 Alabama * (home game) From Iowa, hawkeyesports.com 09/25/10 vs. Ball State (home game) From huskers.com Sat, Sep 25 South Dakota State (home game) Of BCS subdivision universities in driving range of Saint Louis, only Illinois Champaign/Urbana and Vanderbilt have away games or bye weeks on 25 Sep 2010.

To me, it's fully reasonable to expect an adult sitting an EBOR to be clothed as he would go to church, if th event is indoors. If the event is outdoors in frontcountry, to me it's reasonable the EBOR member be in fresh clothing as though he's going into frontcountry. If the even is at a worksite or in backcountry, then the EBOR member has a lot of latitude ... as should the boy. When I'm interviewing a candidate for employment, I'm expected to be in appropriate business attire. Same concept. I will defer discussion on what the young man should wear to other threads. That horse is DEAD. My thoughts.

As a note, The great die-off of WWII Veterans is well-nigh complete. There are something under one million WWII era Veterans still alive, of well over 10 million total served. A young man who was 18 on 1 Jan 1945 turned 83 the first of the year. One of our Eagles did as his ELSP the Library of Congress Veterans Oral History Project for our Chartered Partner, a VFW post. That was seven years ago. One is still alive.

Janet Napolitano: Protecting America from 9 year olds. If I were her chief of staff, I think we'd be dispatching a plane to the airport, and taking this kid and his family anyplace they want... I also think there'd be an all TSA Activities message going out ... saying "use your heads, " Oh, wait: I just accused the United States Government of having common sense. I should know better. Forgive me...

Two sites: http://www.corregidor.org ... history of our stand in the Phillipines in 1942. You may want to pre-surf. http://www.lindavdahl.com/ Linda is the chronicler of the camp where my was held as a PW on Kyushu: Fukuoka 17, where Baron Mitsui used Allied PWs as slave labor. Again, you may want to pre-surf.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

What Eagle92 said. That said, thanks to the forum for this catch. It's an adjustment to be incorporated into my MBC training. For now, there are 4 MBs which have a 1 year life cycle, and cannot be earned until the Scout ages out.

One of the coolest articles in Boys Life I remember as a youth member in the 1960s was all about road rallies. It even gave instructions on how older Scouts and Explorers could establisha road rally. BOYS LIKE CARS This is a win/win, period.

The entire Citizenship Aim of Scouting is about inculcating the Oath and the Law into young people. Yes, the Law is Descriptive. It tells us how we are to live. Yes, the Oath is Aspirational. It is our commitment to the 3 points within it, as well as the 12 points of the Law. When the Scout Oath and Law are graven on a youths' heart and in his mind as his earthly behavior set, we've done our job. No one said getting the Oath and Law graven in our hearts was easy