John-in-KC

Let me make this real simple. Money talks, bull**** walks. If the Silver Beaver or the Vigil Honor can bring in a major donation, the youth need to learn an important life lesson: When the boss, talks, they STFU and say "Yes, Sir." The Scouters who are being considered for Vigil are investing hard sweat equity and cold hard cash into their Councils. Lots of time advisers forget that, and youth members have yet to confront that life lesson being shoved where their suns do not shine. Or do they think their staff scholarships grow on trees? Cynical? Mebbe Realistic? Yeah.

Was at training yesterday. In my Council: The filled-in pdf may be emailed to the Council office (with a "signature page" in the body of the basic email ... you can cut/paste the words straight from the Council website). 3 weeks is what the Director of Support Services (he's the guy who signs in my Council) wants, but case by case he'll work with units. Units at the boundaries will have their routine stuff handled using common sense (SMs are to call the DSS, they'll talk and reach a middle ground, especially on the cross-boundary issue). Cub Packs are up in arms over the Tour Plan requirement for any aquatics event. Too bad, so sad.

The current teaching salary scale in the district I live: http://www.parkhill.k12.mo.us/Salary%20Schedules/Teacher%20Salary%20Schedule%202010-11.pdf Thank the Good Lord for Missouri's open salary laws. Range: Bachelor's, first year: 37.2K MUST HAVE a Masters by 10th year if teacher wishes to progress to career on a scale. Masters only (no hours beyond): 41.3K-61.7K Doctorate: 51.2K - 77.5K

My thoughts: 1) IH and COR, in making the decision you described (Dad is gone), probably have lost this particular Cub and his family from the Pack? (If I was told I wasn't welcome, my kid would be gone...). 2) CC, IH and COR need to discuss the event in terms of the registered Scouter who was involved. Decision to make is to underwrite the Scouters's actions, or send him packing as well. 3) As others have stated, the Council needs to know... it's PR thing for them. Otherwise, everything Lisa said!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

1) Consult a labor law attorney. 2) Don't write another word on a public board. Giving out information can cause any potential redress (including mediation, arbitration, or lawsuit) your wife has to fall in the toilet. 2) We don't know where you are, so we don't know what redress options you have. 3) Remember that you have a passionate, emotional interest in what happens. You need someone who can be dispassionate and does not have an emotional attachment to the matter. There are attorneys on this board; they might give you general information and probably disclaim their statements. You need to retain your own counsel. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Lisa has a point. MARKETING is impressing people enough times to get them to do "something". Our Professionals are actually learning marketing. My DD has told me it takes 7 favorable impressions for a person to decide to do something. No, we're not day job marketers. We're doctors, lawyers, soldiers, carpenters, mechanics, general contractors, jewelers, professors (hi, Lisa!), and on and on. An announcement, such as the sheriff day flyer, is information. The object of the exercise is to generate BUZZ and DESIRE. One thing I've learned is the concept of "Napoleon's Corporal." Take any piece of paper (or it's digits), and hand it to someone unfamiliar. Find out what they take away from it. If their take-away is not what you intended, the message isn't being sent right. Communications matter...

Since you are involved in the Arrow, I'd actually recommend he also be a Venturer, so that there's a clean run for the stuff he does as a youth member vice the stuff he does as a Scouter... The 18/21 conundrum does get to be a challenge at times. Sigh.

Pack, Lisa's posts have the right of it. My District Chairman has been the District Commish, is an Eagle Scout, holds the Vigil Honor in the Order, and is a Sagamore in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say. He has the Silver Beaver, ... you get the point. He's a good friend, someone I deeply respect. He's also an entrepeneur, owner of a dirt-moving construction company. Time for WB? NWIH! If the weekend is at all nice, he's either doing something Scouting, or has his butt in the seat of a dump or a dozer, getting a little ahead on a contract. Point is this: It's who we are, not what we wear. If our handshake is not our unconditional bond, everything else is hooey. You've probably forgotten more Scouting than most WBers will learn in the course. I'd love to be on a camp commish or Regional visitation team with folks like you, Barry, SR540, Lisa, Beav... or else find some nice piece of backcountry to have a weeks' camp away from the madding crowd.

Well, I'll answer Lisa's challenge: - Personally, I counsel: -- Railroading -- Coin Collecting -- Photography -- Citizenship in the Nation -- Citizenship in the World My Council puts a (non-standard to BSA) limit of 6MBs per Counselor. I have one in reserve right now. I counsel district-wide. I am also the trainer of MB Counselors for my District, under coordinated supervision of the Advancement and Training Operating Committees.

True Believer, Show me in the program literature where Webelos are to do Patrols vice Dens, please. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Parents/About/pandm.aspx Hmmm: The DEN Method: 2. Belonging to a Den The dena group of six to eight boys who are about the same ageis the place where Cub Scouting starts. In the den, Cub Scouts develop new skills and interests, they practice sportsmanship and good citizenship, and they learn to do their best, not just for themselves but for the den as well. The tenth PURPOSE of Cub Scouting is to prepare youth for Boy Scouting, but that does not obviate the Den Method. Oh, and the leader is the Webelos DEN leader: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/webdl.aspx(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)

SP, Everything I mentioned is stuff I've seen units I'm in or serve do!

To start things off, the Liadov Fanfare: Speed Racer: Jonny Quest Hawaii 5-0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnK8b_jk8w Top Gun opening credits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C5_-VWU6ks The University of Missouri Run-on, Fanfare, Missouri Waltz, Tiger Rag, and Eye of the Tiger! (hint: There are more Eagle Scouts than you can shake a stick at in Marching Mizzou!) And here's some music from Gunz N Roses and Bon Jovi:

I got my license on a 1971 Chevrolet Kingswood station wagon, the family flivver. I learned my clutch on a 1964 Ford Econoline van we used as the family camping trip wheels.... that straight 6 was the world's most underpowered engine. The first car I bought was a 1979 BMW 318 when I was stationed in Germany. 160kmph (100mph) on the Autobahn.

Sigh. If the person who signed the MB card is a registered MB Counselor for the MB, you're in a spot. You're going to have to have a long heart to heart SM conference with your SPL about loyalty, otherwise, he's in his rights to insist on recognition of the badge. The Scoutmaster is the guardian of the aims and methods.

Thomas, What you described did not happen overnight. Even so, there is now a culture of a wall between the Pack and the Troop. The only way you are going to tear down that wall is to work on the relationships, over time, from your side. First Since when is there a requirement for Den Chiefs to have brothers in the Den? Let me be blunt, that is a bloody excuse. Den Chiefing has been a Warrant Office and now a POR since before I was a Cub in 1964. You recruit and send forth boys to have fun, to help play games with younger youth, to learn from other adults, to help with activities with the Cubs, to LEAD elements of the program under the supervision of a Den Leader, with overwatch from one of your ASMs. Second You call and email the CM. Wow-wee. Have you ever taken her for a cup of coffee and discussed raising youth? Have you visited with her at Roundtable, or offered her a ride? Have you asked her what kind of service projects the Pack is planning and how can the Troop deepen the coverage of the project? To start a relationship, you have to accept responsibility to go the extra miles. Third Program support should be synergistic between a Pack and a Troop. Have you ever thought that the Pack might appreciate hall set-up for B&G? Have you thought of hosting a springtime campfire in even the city park, to entertain the Pack? I'm sorry I'm being blunt. What has happened, happened for a reason. That reason is neither side fed the relationship between Pack and Troop by working on it, month-in and month out. Extend the hand of friendship and service. Keep extending it. It won't be today, tomorrow, or maybe even next year, but the relationship can change.

OK. BTW, I completely agree that the Outdoors Method is vital to Boy Scouting! As my trainer told me some years back: "The outdoors is the way we present the program, so that our youth can get to the Aims!"

Lisa and I are in absolute agreement. It's about ongoing relationships between Packs and Troops. Don't think that simply because you are under the same Partner, Troop A gets the youth from Pack A. The families of Pack A will go to the Troop that looks like the best fit. The best way to have a best fit is to have the relationship Lisa suggested.

Beav, ?? The statement on the Chartered Partner's side of the Charter Agreement is: "Encourage the unit to participate in council outdoor experiences, which are vital elements of the Scouting program." So, where can you source your comment?

If my District Professionals had asked for this at EagleSons ECOH in 2006, I would have responded "How bad do you want my FOS contribution to go to zero, cause that will be the consequnce of doing this?" I am with so many, this is a bad idea. Beavah, In our District, we let the units select when they want an FOS presentation. A lot of units do it during B&G season. BTW, it was that way when it was the "Sustaining Membership" drive when I was a youth member (1960s). The only difference is back then, Mr Shaw, who was the CC, gave the pitch, we didn't have visitors from the outside.

In the Troop I served, The Advancement Coordinator (me) was also the membership coordinator. I had an older version of Troopmaster (this was 2002-6) and I had responsibility for privacy of people's data, in addition to accurate records for the youth. I handed off the reports to the SM, because he worked 3 miles from the Scout Office/Shop, and I lived 20 and worked 40 from same. We agreed it was a common sense solution. In a better world, we'd have gotten to the point where the Scribe would feed me update info. As it was, once every 2 months or so I'd get Scout handbooks for a week, take them home, and update the data points to each rank. On MBs, as youth gave me a completed blue card, I cut the advancement and the report. HTH.

boomer, How in the Sam Hill can units fundraise when the potential purchasers are saying "Sorry, we cannot afford that?" GET REAL. THE ECONOMY SUCKS. The stuff Scouts sell is discretionary income stuff, and families don't have discretionary income right now. I know inner-city units in my neck of the woods that are not going to Scout Camp at all this year ... the kids are needed at home working to buy food and pay the rent. This is the 3d year running my Council has kept its FOS goal for the family campaign flat. THE ECONOMY SUCKS, THE MONEY KIDS EARN GOES DIRECTLY TO THE FAMILY BOTTOM LINE.

eisely, Have fun Working with these young men seems to be one of the best jobs in Scouting. PM me please with real world contact info (name/phone/email). I will put you in touch with my District Advancement Chair, he is also the lead of the District ELSP review/approval team.

Like others, What's the deeper problem? It's time for the SM to make haste slowly and listen lots.

Boomer, In my neck of the woods, in the current Depression, there are Scouts whose odd job income is part of the family budget. That Mom and Dad are allocating funds from what the young man brings to the family for dues, a uniform shirt and the monthly campout is a bit of a sacrifice to the family. So yes, penst8's question has merit.

From the boldfaced (policy) guidance: A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. It's pretty clear to me: In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. 1/1, parental supervision. In my Council, if a Cub is under another parents' direct supervision (this is not the adults go off 300 feet from the kids, the adults are expected to be close at hand), then there must be a permission slip authorizing the adult by name.