John-in-KC

There are two places in the BSA program where earning a recognized religious award IS an advancement requirement. The first comes from Cub Scouts: The Bear Program begins with 1 achievement for God. Requirement 2 is one of the two options of earning "one for God." Its wording is simple: "Earn the religious emblem of your faith." The second is in Venturing: The requirements for the Religious Life bronze award start off with: 1) Earn your denomination's Venturing age religious award. (Venturing Handbook (No. 33493), 1999 printing)

I agree with Kahuna. President Bush is using political capital wisely here. He built a lot up with Judge Roberts running the cycle this summer. Many Senators are already pretty well committed to him; they'll look like horse's A__es if they turn away now. It also gives President Bush an opportunity to find another candidate for Justice O'Connor. That there are world class women out there I have no doubt of ... but is there one who will meet President Bushs' personal preferences as a conservative? As for Justice O'Connor, I don't think she ever shifted HER personal positions on the law, but I do think the relative balance between conservatism and liberalism shifted from where she was far right of center in 1981 to where she was at center in 2005.

Unit Treasurer, because they have to have it right all the time. They are the hands-on stewards of the unit funds. (No, I've not held that job) Unit Advancement/membership coordinator: Whether you use stubby pencil or Troopmaster, this person has a young man's future in their hands. (Yes, I've held that one)

SP, To me, whether a unit leverages Philmont depends a bit on where it lives. A Washington State based Troop can climb Mount Rainier one year, do the Snake River a second year, and hike the Pacific Crest Trail a third year. Frankly, when gas costs $3 a gallon, use the high adventure at your doorsteps. My youth was in the old San Fernando Valley Council, now the Western Los Angeles Council. We had hands-on access to Death Valley, canoeing the lower Colorado River, hiking the John Muir Trail, and hiking from our own Council HA trail; the Silver Knapsack. Now, I'm here in flyover country. Much as I love the H Roe Bartle and Theodore Naish Scout Reservations, they're fundamentally FLAT. Want mountains: Head to the Rockies! BW has it right on the extended fellowship of Jamboree or NOAC. Think about all the times we want our youth to experience cultural diversity. Scouting has it right available. My thoughts. Others will differ. That's ok.

Our new Scout Executive was promoted from the New Orleans Council. The roundtable staff batted the idea around this week, including our DC. Last night was our first night at our new Roundtable site. As part of the combined opening, we passed the hat. Proceeds will go to the Red Cross earmarked against this.

Mike, Seek out the Arrowmen who already like public speaking or acting. Young men who have this bent love the chance to make it happen for real! Have you thought about asking Lodge Chief to have them stand up and take bows at either Fall Fellowship, Section Conclave, or whenever you have your lodge banquet?

Philstaff website page for Double H still shows avaiable 2005 treks. I'd say call Headquarters initially. As far as 2007 registration, I suspect the online process implemented in 2003 is working just fine. Again, contact Philmont.

I think a few folks need to re-read Lincoln's Second Inagural address: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AT this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without warseeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The issues underlying the Civil War are numerous, deep, and even now, tough to fathom. How we lay the nation down between is difficult, even today. Just as the 13 colonies decided to break ranks with Britain, BY FORCE OF ARMS, so did the Southern states attempt to break ranks with the Union ... only the South failed. Lee RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION. He left Union service of his own free will. He fought for matters that gave him a "gut check." So far as I know, no one ever came forward with the eyewitnesses to make the case of TREASON against RE Lee. Remember, the standard of proof for treason is defined in Article III, Section 3 of our Constitution.

Someone mentioned Lee's loyalty. Colonel Robert E Lee, before offering his sword to the Confederacy, transferred Federal property under his stewardship, ensured his successor was qualifed for and prepared to command, and tendered his resignation from the Army. Only then did he offer himself to the service of Virginia. We also have to look at the object of loyalty: In 1860, loyalty to the Federal government as an absolute was not a solidified concept. It took the War of Northern Aggression to make that happen. There are far worse examples of leadership for a young man (or a young Army officer) that Robert Edward Lee. My thoughts; others will differ. That's ok.

The young man started the MB with me when he was 12. He was a fifth grader at the time. The requirement was "Explain..." He partialled and left the MB lie for 4 years. He came back to me to pick up the MB. I gave him credit for the various "performance tasks." I asked him to re-do the explanation. 4 years of maturity, particularly in this subject, means a substantial change in how much subject knowledge he had, and the depth of his approach to the subject. How have you handled a partial when the youth comes back after 3-4 years to get the MB done?

Several comments: First, when I was advancement coordinator, I kept partials on Troopmaster and made sure the SM and youth knew where they stood. Second, I really like the idea of giving each youth a copy of his advancement and activity records. No sense in playing I've got a secret with him. OTOH, that is what the pages in the Scout handbook are supposed to be for. I guess the bottom line is: The youth has to account for his own advancement. Third, with the wonderful wacky folks of our Council Registrar's office, we help the youth do his app, but an adult turns it in, AND GETS A SIGNATURE OF RECORD FOR IT. Sometimes, it pays to be able to back the Director of Field Service into a corner (ours is a large council)... Last, we allow the youth to select the site for his Eagle BOR. We give him 2-3 choices of dates (the District Eagle Guests drive that train). He makes the call on the date. We're grateful our District NESA and Advancement folk believe that the BOR is an important day for the youth; he should have direct input into where and when it will be. I know many Districts mandate Eagle BORS be at some monthly District function; our district believes the burden of support is on the grownup, not the youth.

Mr ASM59, I will leave the political debate to others. For now, RUN, do not WALK, to your local VFW and/or American Legion Post. Contact your local UC/DC and district executive on the way! Both these great patriotic organizations have National mandates to their local units: Pick up BSA units dropped by other chartering partners! http://www.legion.org/?section=prog_evt&subsection=evt_scouting&content=evt_scouting http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=cmty.leveld&did=154 I don't promise your local posts will pick up the slack, but they're often willing! The Troop and Crew of my son is chartered by a VFW Post, as was his Cub Pack. Superior support.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

BTW, that canvas of the shelter half, and the wool GI blanket helped the bedroll weigh quite a little bit!!! If you can find it, the late COL Townsend Whelen and Mr Bradford Angier, in 1958, wrote a great book: On Your Own in the Wilderness. The expedition camping of this era was just before aluminum frames and nylon backpacks came onto the scene. This would be a good book if you wanted to re-create this era of packing/hiking/camping

Timely considering Katrina....

Your questions are in caps. My responses are mainly from the NIV. My personal comments are underlined. WHY ARE WE HERE? Genesis 1:26-28 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." God intended us to be the stewards of His creation. That's my interpretation. WHY IS THERE EVIL? Genesis 3:1-19 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with meshe gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." Evil at an earthly level came about when mankind deliberately disobeyed God. We'll save discussions of Lucifer/Satan and the battles in Heaven for after I decide to get my divinity degree. WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WE DIE? John 14:1-4 1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." John 3:16-18 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. Revelation 20:11-21: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." 1 Corinthians 15:12-28 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. I am a Christian. God created - man erred; God provided a partial covenant. God decided (He has that right, he's God) to expand the covenant, and to make it Grace based, not our works based. God's offer is finite. When we die, His offer expires. When God decides it is time for the Final Judgment, His offer expires. I can be awfully lazy . Seems to me that Christianity is the simplest and easiest way to God ... He's done the sacrificing for us; all we have to do is accept that fact, love Him (which He helps us do), and know He blesses our actions because He is the great "I AM." As for others: You have the right to choose your path. If you want to try works to salvation, I wish you well.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

DR, Strongly recommend you attend New Leader Essentials position specific training for the Venturing program!!! Sea Scouting and Venturing operate out of the same office at National. Yes, Sea Scouting includes the Uniform method, which straight line Venturing does not. Sea Scouting has a different top award, the Quartermaster. I strongly recommend you look at the Venturing and Sea Scouting website within the BSA National site: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=va Beyond this, IIRC BobWhite has direct and expert knowledge of Sea Scouting. I hope he weighs in here.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Sir Jim, First, as BW said, you WANT (really do) the high cover of your District or Council. You want their blessing going forward. A Scouter asking for an independent meeting of multiple Scouts across the council without official foreknowledge ... well, I hope your YP plan for that meeting is awfully good. Second, whether District or Council -wide depends on several factors: Scouting population and geographic size are two of the biggest. My district is 2 counties. We have 58 active troops on the books. District makes sense for us. Your council/district is not mine. Have fun getting this up and running.

Take care of yourself, your family, and your extended Scouting family... Prayers until you tell us the storm is past and everyone is safe.

Our district uses an SPL council in two separate contexts: For camporees and Klondikes, we have convened SPL councils so that the youth could make some program decisions. They met initially as breakout sessions of our Roundtable; some work was carried forth through the planning cycle independently. Sub-committees met with the District Activity Committee event director/program directors "as needed" or "on call". Our RT has a standing feature called "Scoutmaster to Scoutmaster." Meets monthly, is facilitated by an ADC and a respected SM. Periodically (twice a year or so) we have a "SPL to SPL" special feature. The boys cross-fertilize. About once a year, we put the SMs in the room with the SPLs. The SMs are put on silence (most are Arrowmen or Tribesmen). The facilitators let the SPLs run ... some mighty chagrined SMs walk out of THOSE sessions. Bottom line: The idea has worked for us; be careful, though ... jr high and high school students are busier than we were "in the day"; don't allow "the game with a purpose" to become "another #### meeting" for these great young men.

Now I get the point: Those who become card carrying members of the Uniform Police have subsituted "pedanticim for its own sake" for B-P's "the game with a purpose." They have opted to emphasize the Uniform method of Scouting over the other seven methods of this part of the BSA program packages. By the collective standards of this thread (see the NINTH message in this thread), the T-shirt designed by my WB course leaders as our activity shirt takes us out of BSA uniform, despite the students and faculty wearing BSA shorts, belts, and socks. The T-shirts worn by my Councils scout camps staffs take each and every member out of uniform, despite the staff (paid and commissioner alike) wearing BSA shorts, belts, and socks. Wearing BSA tagged official uniform shorts whose construction, fit and finish are designed for the rugged outdoors, takes a Scout or Scouter out of BSA uniform. I pity the paying guests (Scouts and Scouters) in your Council boy/cub scout resident and day camps if you are on staff there and enforcing policy the way you write of it here. Yes, uniforming is a method of the Boy Scouting program. It should properly receive no more and no less emphasis than any of the other seven methods.

I'm at home now. I have nine different garments I've drawn from various closets. Were I to go to my car and get my two Scout shirts, Venturing shirt, and 3 pr of Scout shorts, the data points would increase to 14. Garment 1: Cub Scout shirt, ca 1965-68 (mine): Label has the First Class fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America National Council. Surrounding the circle in a semicircle is BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. Horizontally underneath are OFFICIAL SHIRT and SANFORIZED Garment 2: Boy Scout shirt, ca 1970-72 (mine): Label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Surrounding the circle in a semicircle is BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. Horizontally underneath is OFFICIAL SHIRT Garment 3: Boy Scout shorts, ca 2004 (sons): Label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Horizontally underneath is OFFICIAL UNIFORM and in smaller letters SEE BACK FOR CARE. The following alphnumeric is in the upper left corner: RN21328 Garment 4: Boy Scout shirt (mens L), ca 2004 (sons (he's 6'): Label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Horizontally along the top is OFFICIAL MEN'S SHIRT with care instructions underneath. The following alphnumeric is along the left edge: RN21328. The alphanumberic CAT59493 is in the lower left corner. Garment 5: Boy Scout Trousers (mens 33-33), ca 2004 (sons): Like garment 3, this label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Horizontally underneath is OFFICIAL UNIFORM and in smaller letters SEE BACK FOR CARE. The following alphnumeric is in the upper left corner: RN21328. Garment 6: Scout red jacket (mens XL), ca 2003 (mine): This label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA in fine all uppercase is across the top; OFFICIAL JACKET is to the right of the fleur-de-lis. The control number is WPL 6635. Garment 7: Scout red jacket (mens L) ca 1965 (bought new in the bag off eBay) (sons): Label has the First Class fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America National Council. BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA in fine all uppercase is across the top; OFFICIAL JACKET is to the right of the fleur-de-lis. There is no control number. Garment 8: Philmont shorts (waist 33) ca 2003 (sons): Like garments 3 and 5, this label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Horizontally underneath is OFFICIAL UNIFORM and in smaller letters SEE BACK FOR CARE. The following alphnumeric is in the upper left corner: RN21328. Garment 9: Philmont shorts (waist 46) ca 2003 (mine): Like garments 3, 5 and 8, this label has the Tenderfoot fleur-de-lis within a circle of Boy Scouts of America Be Prepared. Horizontally underneath is OFFICIAL UNIFORM and in smaller letters SEE BACK FOR CARE. The following alphnumeric is in the upper left corner: RN21328. Looking at all the OFFICIAL UNIFORM tabs within these 9 garments, I conclude garments 8 and 9, Phimont shorts, have tabs consistent with other modern era articles of the official BSA uniform, particularly green shorts and trousers. I further conclude the wording of official uniform (shirt)(jacket) on the tabl is reliably consistent across the previous 40 years. I assess the Philmont shorts, articles 8 and 9, are designated by BSA Supply Division as articles of the official uniform and are suitable for wear with field or activity uniforms. I will let others put their forensic evidence on the table now.

Since you are the organizer, please, please talk with your District Committee Activity Chairman and your District Executive. They can give you useful guidance. Different Councils have different interpretations of who and how Webelos camping may happen in a Camporee setting. This is one of those areas where the local SE applies judgment in how he/she implements National policy. In 2004, my particular council permitted Webelos 2 dens to have an independent camping area adjacent to the Troop campsite. Webelos 1 dens were only permitted to have day outings to the various District camporees; they had to be off-property 30 minutes after the end of the campfire program.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Sounds like an ideal chance to recruit a parent to be a Scouter ... and not supporting the Baby Sitters of America. If the youth needs assistance with meds, as stated above, the ideal situation is the parent is available. That means the parent is at scout camp, having fun and helping lead other young men. Might be useful, though, if the parent gets Fast Start, YP, NLE common core, and NLE Position Specific training along the way.

Group, Heart of America Council BSA (Kansas City and environs KS/MO)has slipped their Commissioner College back to November 2006 from its traditional March timeframe. Does anyone here know of a college planning to happen in KANSAS, MISSOURI, NEBRASKA or IOWA between now and June 2006? TIA.

Bob, Considering tonight is my first mid-session Wood Badge patrol meeting tonight, I think that I will defer re-attending the NEW LEADER ESSENTIALS POSITION SPECIFIC TRAINING for the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster (or the Troop Committee member/Troop Committee Challenge) (basic leader training is no longer an approved training term!) for a bit. As I said, I will transcribe the tag tonight after I get home. Let's both let it rest until then.