John-in-KC

I've seen several Council Annual Reports. I'd LOVE TO SEE a fully audited Council Fiscal report, done to GAAP (or non-profit equivalent). For that matter, I'd love to see the same for BSA National.

I have to agree with KS: Some of the very best COHs are the ones with a potluck and family participation! LisaBob: Anarchist, yes, I am talking about boy scouts, not cubs, and I do understand the desire to have a dignified award ceremony. However, what I've noticed at all 3 of these that I have been to so far is that the BOYS (and especially the younger boys, but not only them) seem bored too. They sit in chairs facing the stage and listen as one adult after another and an occasional PL or the SPL talks. By the end of the night they're squirming all over the place and they're not listening very well. I hardly think this is what most people would desire either. What I see here is the antithesis of BOY RUN. If the adults are manhandling the COH, maybe the trick is to find a way to get SPL to say at PLC: Mr SM, can we do the next COH? It may take until it's your sons turn to be SPL, though...

What both SueM and Don said. Lots of Eagle Leadership Service Projects are "designe, resource, and build object X for non-profit agency Y, so that people Z can enjoy activity A." The lasting value is the object itself and its relationship to the facility or piece of Nature in question. For cerebral projects such as "plan an organ donor information and sign-up campaign", more thought is needed: How will the information get out? Who will he furnish copies of organ donor forms to? Who will be the receiving agency for completed forms? I strongly recommend your SM/Advisor talking off-line to the District Advancement Chair; he'll help provide "what will get this over the top" info. My son has a cerebral project; my brainstorming with the Advancement Chair on the front end saved my son two or three trips back to Roundtable on getting his project ready to go.

Here is some info from the Guide to Safe Scouting on Cub camping. Bottom Line: Generally a 1/1 experience, with the adult being a parent or legal guardian. BOLDFACE material is BSA mandated, in other words, follow the rules or you won't get a tour permit: III. Camping Age Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens is not approved, and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program covering operating under BSA National Camp School-trained leadership and managed by the council. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. [snippage of Boy Scout, Varsity and Venturing guidelines] If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers. Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. Recreational family camping Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a non-structured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities Cub Scouts may experience overnight activities in venues other than accredited resident camping. There are two categories of Cub Scout overnighters: Council-Organized Family Camp Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as Parent/Pal or Adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Overnight activities involving more than one pack must be approved by the council. Council-organized family camps must be conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National Standards for Council-Organized Family Camping, No. 13-408. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Site Approval Standards, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth participant will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162A) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426B.

I am going to agree with LisaBob here, for both of the Scouters who need help in this thread. Her reasoning is smack-on. If there is one lesson I've learned in life, it's "be exceptionally selective about when, where and how you burn your bridges. You never know when you'll need that bridge again, and ... 8 of 10 times, you will." Stepping away with dignity, grace and compassion really does reduce the amount of loss in a lose-lose ... which is what someone leaving a CC or CM (or any primary Scoutering job) at mid-year does ... to the youth. Lessons to be gleaned: 1) If you contemplate a major job (Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Den Leader), do not let the sun go down on saying yes before you have help and backup behind you. 2) Remember who the service is for: ALL THE KIDS! Emphasize that to parents. Too many parents look only at Billy, and forget Johnny and Jake need a smile and some encouragement too. 3) Get as many people trained as possible. While the 15-85 rule is out there, there is nothing that says we can't stretch the envelope to 20-80 or 25-75! John A Good Old Owl too

Ms Boxie Lady, I second what both emb021 and Backpacker have told you. We are mostly volunteers like yourself. We have access to some resources, and we are gladly willing to share those resources with you. We are NOT a substitute for your Council SE, your DE, the Commissioner Service, Training Committee or the Venturing Officers Association. All of those folks are local to your home. We've provided resources to find as well as expressed specific reservations and concerns ... BASED on your input to us. We've tried to give you feedback by first confirming we're attacking the question you're asking, and then working to put resources that answer your question to hand. Being a Scouter isn't easy, especially when you're starting up a program. You need to find your core of youth (minimum 5 to charter a unit) and your core of volunteers (again minimum 5) and coach and mentor them to get and stay pumped up. Their high energy will help you maintain high energy. If a Scouter, in particular, is lacking desire to be "part of the game", then that is a specific and relatively high risk YOU must manage. Good Scouting to you.

I just completed my 90 day post-course meeting yesterday. What our Scoutmaster said was he'd like 2-3 weeks lead time on beading ceremonies from the time the candidate (me) calls my TG and we confirm completion. That said, the Council WB coordinator for my course said they've gotten calls from TGs on Sunday, saying the candidate called and confirmed completion, and could the beading be Wednesday? To me, 3 days of lead time doesn't feel like "A Scout is Courteous." John A Good Old Owl C-40-05(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Eamonn, To me, the anecdotes are the canary in the coal mine: I suspect there is a statistically valid, systemic issue out there; I posit this hypothesis: The "de la Renta" uniform no longer accepted or acceptable to troops out in the Councils. Units are electing to procure uniform parts of appropriate color outside the BSA supply corporation system. It's up to National to do the necessary sampling to prove/deny the hypothesis.

I've said something very similar to OGE in a different uniform thread here. Some points I'd like to add to his post: - FABRICS should all support use in the outdoors. There is no reason for permanent press cotton poly that retains cold in winter and heat in summer. - The FABRICS should additionally be environmentally friendly. We do practice the Outdoor code around here, do we not? Wool, cotton, and RECYCLED polypro (vice new polypro fibers made direct from petroleum) I do not expect the boys competing in a contest to make material decisions ... though some older Scouts or Venturers who are looking at textile design as a career will almost certainly have some well considered thoughts. I expect industry and Supply Division to make most of the "right fabric for the garment" decisions. - The winner of the contest might not be a single design, but the best elements of several designs. Further, there may be a range of uniform parts available, supporting needs from Maine to California. - I would look at the advisory board being made up mostly of outdoor outfitting experts. The US has LOTS of expertise in outdoor outfitting and clothing design. The folks from the Army's Natick Labs, Columbia, REI, Cabela's ... there is no excuse for not leveraging expertise. I'd also look at older youth (17 yrs, Eagle Scouts) and some young adults (Arrowmen and Venturers from both genders). My thoughts

Agree with both Torveaux, SemperParatus, and LisaBob: $2 a week is not an unreasonable amount to cover supplies and snacks for a den. I do believe a Pack Treasurer should have the books set up for ongoing receipts and distributions from Dens. I also believe Den dues are immediate operating funds, although they can be used as "Christmas Clubs" to help the Cub save for camp or Webelos camp throughout the program year. If there is a youth whose family is in genuine financial straits, then it's the CM's job to approach the COR and see how the unit and the Partner can work together ... bringing Scouting to the youth! One other comment, and it does frustrate me, because I think BSA is acting like a "for-profit" when it does this: Pack A, because of the charter cycle, may end up paying Youth B's full year dues. If Youth B is going to move up to Boy Scouting and join Troop C, then the membership should migrate ... but the local Council will probably charge the $1 transfer fee (and if you believe the salary of the clerk/typist I who inputs that change to ScoutNet, plus the bandwidth, plus the energy cost of her workstation is $1 for the 25 seconds it takes to poke in theat change, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I second all the great advice you've received. I will say this: You owe no loyalty to any "feeder" Troop. Your loyalty should be to your son. Join the Troop which he, and you, believe will best meet his needs over the next several years. THAT SAID: THE FEEDER TROOP owes loyalty to its Pack. Den Chiefs should be sent down. An ASM should be co-chartered as one of your ACMs, to take your program needs back to the Troop. The Troop should be offering support to your Pack without it having to be asked for. If all this is happening, great, then I'll get off my soapbox. If not, take that as an indicator of quality of management and support in the feeder Troop. John A Good Old Owl Too

There is a vital point to szekany's note, though ... maybe more than 1. The points are systemic to training programs, vice specific to the training content.: TRAINING DISTRACTORS are a TURNOFF. The JOB of the TRAINER IS TO GET AND KEEP THE GROUP ON TASK!!!! KNOW THE MATERIAL YOU'RE GIVING AS A TRAINER. I walk out of classes where I get the slides read to me. I walk out of presentations where I'm being asked to give a decision, when I get slides read to me. Do not insult the people taking training; it's completely unprofessional. They can read. Reading the slides to them shouts to the audience "I did not prepare" and WASTES THEIR TIME. BE ABLE TO SAY WHY IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOUR ATTENDEES TO TAKE THE TRAINING. Yes, SSD/SA is not BSA Lifeguard. Who out there told this audience what supporting skill training was available???? There are valuable take-aways from SSD/SA. Among the very least of them are building an age-appropriate trip which gives adventure but eliminates un-needed risk. I've said my piece; some will agree, others disagree. That's OK. John A Good Old Owl

I think, before I made the final decision about sitting or not sitting the Eagle BOR, I'd have a talk with the candidates Scoutmaster. There is not enough information in Eagle WB's post to tell us WHY the candidate does not have a uniform. Asking a few questions and gathering a few facts will get a lot more mileage than just deciding not to sit the board, or voting no. YIS

Problem is this: BSA emphasizes a maturation process. Football camp, band camp, baseball camp, space camp, not to mention swimming camp and soccer camp all emphasize skill development. Very, very few of the specialty camps I see pay any more than lip service to "the whole man." Parents have choices. BSA is ONE choice on the plate for a summer camp experience. Parents expect the program their child attends will produce results. No results, don't expect the parent to let the child return the following year. As far as fixing the attitude described above, I wish I knew...

Welcome to the forums! Blue and Gold is the Cub Scout program celebration of the birthday of the Boy Scouts of America. That's exactly what ScoutNut said, and it's true. It's supposed to be a REALLY BIG SHOW in the program year. Cubs make placemats, centerpieces, and other arty (read fine motor skills) objects. Dens put together their very best songs and skits. If there is ever a night where outside the Pack entertainment comes in, B&G is usually it. Advancement SHOULD happen, even on the night of a B&G. Leaders, particularly the CM and the B/G coordinator, though, have to BALANCE the evening. I've seen more than one B&G go on until 10 at night ... ON A SCHOOL NIGHT. That is certainly not serving the youth! So... sit down and figure out what should be awarded in the Pack meeting (Bobcat, Wolf, Bear), and what might be awardable in the Den meetings in February (belt loops, arrow points). Remember that, in spite of all the venting here, probably the Webelos II scouts are going to have their bridging ceremonies. It might be that you and the CM tell the SM/SPL how much time they get for presentations on their side of the bridge. BTW, go attend the Cub Scout program at your District Roundtable. There are lots of folks who've got great experience of supporting a B/G banquet, and most are more than generous at sharing. YIS John

Our TG had several notebooks with his presentations set up as a deskside sales pitch for patrol presentations. PROBLEMS!!!! 1) The bloody plastic of the document protector created substantial glare ... especially if you were more than 10 degrees off the perpendicular of the notebook. 2) BSA's "woodbadge" background is NOT conducive to a deskside pitch. Better to delete the background and show the pitch in good old black and white. John A Good old Owl

Mr JG, Welcome to the forums. It'll be interesting to see how this SW cross-platforms to/from ScoutNet. BSA has a very comprehensive basic database. It should, to my 1KB of flesh/blood RAM, be a no-brainer to port over info by BSA number and then add in Arrow-specific data. HOWEVER: Having gone through Internet Recharter a year ago, and finding out there are substantial changes to the Internet Recharter this year, I trust the National Office as much as I trust Texans to drive on back ice (I don't).

Thank you for your service to our Nation. May the young men and women you trained and served alongside remember the lessons you imparted them. May the Warrior Ethic of selfless service to the Nation reside in them until they hand over the sword to another generation.

Right now, it's Footsteps of the Founder, which is a compilation of quotes, edited by an Italian diplomat for the World Scouting Movement. Downstream, I'd like to find a real (vice web) copy of Lessons from the Varsity of Life. John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05

What ScoutNut said sounds to me like a liability issue run amok: - Claims against the BSA liability policy for cold weather injuries or lawsuits against the Council for same have the attention of the Camping Committee and the Executive Board. OR - Someone on either the Health & Safety or Camping committees (or an attorney/insurance guy anywhere in the Executive Board) does not trust the Chartered Partners, leaders, boys, and the Council training committee.

Since reading a book by B-P is one of my ticket items (a *for me* item as a backup to one of the primary 7), I'll keep researching Even if I don't find the exact quote, I'll still find good stuff! John A Good old Owl

Ms Boxie Lady, OK, here is a problem: You wrote: 'I know myself and my husband will be all geared up and ready but the Charter Rep is not wanting anything to do with actual meetings(Unless necessary), outings, events, etc. She just wants to handle the go between only and I just needed to know if that was ok.(She is also going to hold Commitee Chair)' You will not be able to get the new unit app past your DE or Council Registrar. BSA standards are the COR and the CC be two different people. ScoutNet just will not let it happen. That your prospective COR has the attitude he/she does (as you've written) deeply concerns me. This concern will be stronger ESPECIALLY if he/she also wants to be the CC. Committee Chair doesn't have to be hands on, but they have to have a CONSTANT ATTITUDE of "How can we support the program better?!" That means regular and ongoing cross-talk with the Advisor. Emb021's last two posts are smack on and most helpful. BTW, I am currently on charter to my Crew as a Member of Committee. I took the Venturing Leader Specific Training. A Scouter who has taken training in the NLE era will easily extract the depth and breadth needed to be a MC from the package.

Kudu, I think you will find "The Game with a Purpose" goes straight back to a fellow named Robert Stephenson Smythe Baden-Powell, Lord Baden-Powell of Gilwell. Two specific quotes, found in the 1919 edition of Aids to Scoutmastership, are: FROM THE FOREWORD: "The term 'Scouting' has come to mean a system of training in citizenship, through games, for boys or girls." FROM CHAPTER 3, SCOUTING: "SCOUTING IS A GAME for boys, under the leadership of boys, in which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy environment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them to develop CITIZENSHIP." I'll also look in the Quotes by BP book tonight. YIS John A Good Old Owl Too (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Eamonn, You put a LOT of meat on those bones To my way of thinking, the biggest single problem we have in the LT camping system is the DINING HALL. Why? Simple: When Scouts eat food prepared for them, they don't cook. Now, cooking, in the current BSA program, is as close to an afterthought as anything I know. Pioneering is probably the second closest item in that regard. Once upon a time (1960s and early 70s), when the Green uniform and the overseas cap were de riguer, the Cooking MB was required for Eagle. Requirements for Cooking have not changed a lot over the years. The MB requires a Scout to step up to the prep table and the stove and COOK! The activities associated with a meal: Stoves/fires, water fetching, KP, cooks helpers, all reinforce the Patrol Method AND use up some of that time. They teach teamwork, discipline, and the skills of converting raw food into a meal. To my way of thinking, bringing an emphasis on cooking back into the Scout program would go far towards making a more holistic camping program AND leveraging a Scout Camp for advancement without having to do 'merit badge school.' My thoughts. Some may agree. Others will disagree. That's OK.

Ms Boxie Lady, I'm on a Crew Committee; I'm also going to be a COR as of recharter for our units. So, I'm going to take a stab at your questions: "I would call my DE but we do not have one at the moment and our FD is a busy man. I will try to reach him later for more in depth info that I can't get here." As emb021 said, is there a Commissioner in your Council who is the "go-to" person for Venturing? Is there a Venturing Officers Association, with youth who are "leaders of leaders"? These folk will have more "street smarts" on the program than your DE or FD "1. What are the actual jobs of the Commitee Members and Com. Chair and Charter Rep? Do they need to attend meetings or what? I am the Advisor and my Husband is another Com. Member so we will have both of us and also be able to be co-ed.(BTW, I have been in BSA for 5 years-Den Leader and Camp Director) Depends a bit on the caliber of the youth you have. If your youth are self-starting and have well-formed ideas of their responsibilities, you may find the Committeepeople are really "technical mentors" providing legal cover (as needed) and oversight to the youth. [AS AN EXAMPLE: There are some States where a minor cannot be legally liable for a checking account. An adult committee member may have to actually sign the checks.] Ditto the Crew Secretary handling membership and advancement; even to the point of maintaining the unit database. My sponsoring Institution...I have a local store willing to sponsor us.(Not a chain-just a mom and pop store..will that work or do I HAVE to have a church/business?) Nothing wrong with a business being a Chartered Partner. May I recommend the owner, if he/she is not a Scouter, finding an experienced Scouter to be your Chartered Organization Representative. The chartered partner does have obligations, especially in regard to leader selection and training! An experienced Scouter as COR can help you there. 3. I know we can focus on various things but like what? Is the Ranger Program a guideline or is that a program? I like the Outdoors, wildlife aspect. As you ramp up your Crew to starting, let the youth decide their focus. I know of a Crew that is a high school band. Venturing allows them a ready structure for the band officers, as well as putting the responsibility of planning big trips on the youth. I know another Crew that converted over en masse from GSUSA; they wanted camping and outdoor operations in their program. Eamonn here is in the food chain for a Sea Scout Ship (which is now within the Venturing fold). Again, I recommend letting the youth make the program call DO take Venturing Fast Start, either off tape or online, as soon as you can. DO take Venturing youth protection for Scouters (different from Venturing YP for youth, AND different for Cub/Boy Scout YP). DO take Venturing Leader Specific training as soon as humanly possible (even if it means bribing the Council trainer with dinners at the house) 4. For our outings, what adult leaders need to go? The advisor(me-female) and my husband (member-male) or more? Back to training and G2SS. Two deep leadership is always a requirement for outings. In Ventruing, coed two deep leadership is required when the youth are coed. The Venturing YP training does an excellent job of spelling this out! 5. Who pays for any awards earned? The Sponsoring inst. or other? emb021's comments are smack on. I cannot add more to the discussion. "6. How often is good for meetings and outings? A lot of teens have jobs and would not be able to meet weekly or whatnot." Depends on what the Crew is doing and when they're doing it. Sometimes, bi-weekly meetings are more than enough; youth may be able to make it happen on once every 3 weeks. OTOH, if they're going on an expedition at the Double H, they may be meeting for training hikes every weekend! ..I know I asked a lot but I like to know everything before I jump in. I have to have all my paperwork turned in by next week (all app's and New Unit App.) so I need info!!! Thanks!!!! HTH! YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)