John-in-KC

A couple of comments ... First, to my way of thinking, Scout camp must cover its costs. It does not have to make money, but it has to cover costs. I've done weekend volunteer maintenance work at my council camp for the past three years. There is always work to be done. Water mains break. Water plants fall out of environmental compliance. Boats need inspections; outboard and inboard engines need service (pre and post-season). The docks have to come in at our camp (the lake is a Corps of Engineers facility; they demand it). Kitchens have to meet health code, as do the food storage areas. Buildings need repair. Tents wear out, as do cots and platforms. Camp fees cover food, salaries of J and adult staff, pool chemicals, ad infinitum. FOS and Council budget covers much of the rest. Capital campaigns cover new construction. To me, closing a camp is one of those "canaries in the coal mine." It's time to ask tough questions through your Chartered Partner. The COR is a voting member of the Council; he can ask tough questions and demand they be answered.

What Sue, Ed and Lisa said (on the serious side). What Lisa said about the coffee (on the humorous side). John A Good Old Owl

Recreational Equipment Incorporated is always a good source of stuff. www.rei.com Good gear is a blessing. I've also given my son his red Scout jacket. Last year, his grandparents gave him his Venturing uniform (less the gray pants; we found equivalent from Columbia for less than half the price). For two years from now, the OA Trail Crew trek is a great Philmont expedition and service project, and the price cannot be beat!!! If he's into cooking, camp cookery gear ... and real lessons in cooking. I'm still amazed Cooking was dropped from the Eagle list all those years ago. It's an essential male skill, especially if the male in question is unmarried. If you get a chance to go to PTC, consider taking the cousin along for the things they do there. 11-14 year olds do cool things like they would at a Scout camp. Above 14, and there is a special one week trek for them.

Has this CM even thought about the cost difference between 4 days/3 nights at the Council Webelos Camp compared to taking youth (and sufficient leaders) to NM from FL???? By the way, this trip proposal is certainly long enough to demand a National Tour Permit! I would ask, in Pack Committee, for how he plans to execute this trip, and how he plans to meet National TP standards. If you get "deer in headlights" stare, I would run, not walk, to the unit commissioner, Chartered Organization Representative, and District Executive. Some training and education are obviously in order. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

From a practical point of view: The Council holds the liability insurance policy, and they are going to be the ones issuing the Tour Permit for you to have a week-long camp. National Camp Standards don't necessarily apply, but your Council may (and probably will) insist on key adult training ... particularly if the Council is opening up the Ranges, the Pool, and the Lakefront. Whether they accept that through the various trainings, or demand your adults attend National Camp School, is their call. From my observation post, I would want: - My Rangemaster(s) to meet G2SS standards: "Boy Scouts are permitted to fire .22 caliber bolt-action, single-shot rifles, air rifles, shotguns, and muzzle-loading long guns under the direction of a *certified* (emphasis added) instructor, 21 years of age or older, within the standards outlined in current Scouting literature and bulletins." - My aquatics directors (pool, lakefront) to be BSA Lifguards per the "strong recommendation" in G2SS. - I would conform, no questions asked, to whatever Medical Officer standard the Council sets. Beyond that, planning the logistics (particularly ration management) is the long pole in the tent for doing your own camp. Is the Council going to give you access to their refrigerators in the camp commissary or mess hall? if yes, then fresh meats and fruits are an easy part of your plannig. If NO, then you need to plan more canned, pouched, and freeze-dried foods.

This goes back to the ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF SCOUTING: We are here to provide the AIMS OF SCOUTING across our major programs to American young people: Character Development Citizenship Training Personal Fitness The outdoor program is the TOOL WE USE to deliver the training. It's a METHOD, no more, no less. From my perspective, leadership is a skill that is fundamental to two of our three Aims, and supportive of the third. John A good old Owl (C-40-05)

Seconding Sue!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO IT!!!!

To my 1KB of flesh-and-blood RAM, fundraising does NOT rise to the level of a service project. Cannot talk to the Girl Scout unit. I've not even tried to understand their organization and structure. As far as the troop goes, I'd have a talk with the CC and SM. If they are unwilling to back away from unit fundraising as service, I'd ask son if he wants to find a new troop. If he so chooses, and when you do find a new troop, I'd finally drop a friendly word with the Chartered Org Rep and the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner.

Lisa, Thanks for starting this thread. You've touched one of my buttons; I think how we train to serve the youth of the Scouting program is vital. My bottom lines up front are: - We need Scouters to be around for the right reasons ... help raise up moral and ethical young folk to adulthood using an outdoors based program. - We have too many Scouters who enter the system with a "less than desirable" outdoor and/or citizenship/ethics skillset. - We need BSA to package an overall training program which provides not just introductions, but depth and breadth in ALL its subject areas. THEN, an adult can select training based on interests and perceived needs. If folks want to read the long version, it begins here: I think there is a two-tiered problem out there. First, sadly, some Scouters forget why we're here: TO RAISE UP ETHICAL YOUNG MEN (and women). When being a Scouter stops being about youth service, and instead becomes being about patches and knots ... Second, I've spent a few years in adult training, both on the platform and behind the scenes. Scouting has done a superb model of an empowering training program that has a life cycle. There is just One Little Problem: Many people in the real world don't bother with the model, they take what they need when they think they need it. To me, WB is a means, a network builder, and a beginning: It's a means because it does provide tools for your personal toolbox. The people you meet in your patrol and troop expand the network of contacts you have for scouting. Finally, it's a beginning: If you're contemplating Scouting being a main focus of your adult service to the community, it seems to be a declarattion that "you're serious" about committing to the program. To me, though, the training system needs two separate tracks, one covering our programs, the other building outdoor skills. We need Scouting to provide the opportunities for "rookie adults" to LEARN, to STANDARD, the basics of the outdoors. That may mean an adult "orienteering for leaders" weekend, where map and compasswork is the focus. It may mean "cookery". Equally, it may mean learning how to carry, as Colin Fletcher once described it "your house on your back." My thoughts here. John A good old owl!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Kevin M, As points of reference, what Kevin Carlyle refers to as "The Point" and "She-she-be" are places at the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation by Osceola, MO: The Point is a rock outcropping overlooking a goodly portion of Truman Lake. She-She-Be is a council ring used for mentorship of Scouts entering or advancing in the MOS program. At Bartle, it is adjacent to the Point. There is also a She-She-Be ring at the Geiger Reservation in St Joseph, MO (Pony Express Council camp and the other home of MOS). HTH. YIS

I just talked with my Council Professional who is the specialist for Ventruing in the Field Service department: - A member of a Venturing Crew (or a Scouter on a Crew charter) is a member of BSA. He or she has access to the full range of BSA programs as appropriate to age and gender. - A member of an Exploring Post, or an adult on the post charter, IS NOT a member of BSA. They are members of Learning for Life. Unless the youth is also a member of a BSA unit, he or she does not have access to BSA programs. Frankly, I'd encourage choosing a Venturing Crew over LFL and a Post.

I've been contemplating the balance of leadership and outdoors training in the Scouting program for some time now. We need to look at American society these days: Largely urban, outdoor skills are no longer part of the "due course" training a child receives growing up. Look back to the Depression generation: It was truly the last generation where outdoor experience was inherent to the upbringing. Look at (for some of us) our own Boomer generation: Dad had been in WWII or Korea, and helped teach us our skills. We also had nuclear families far longer in our youth. Now, look at todays generation, both youth and adult: We live in cities, we have to MAKE the opportunity to get out to the woodline. We have highspeed/lowdrag gizmos that supplant the basic needs for lashing, unless we force youth to leave the gizmos behind. I have even heard a "leave no trace" trainer of trainers submit to his class that pioneering may well be outside the boundaries of the LNT ethic! Even so, in the nautical community, Eamonn needs ropework as part of the most basic skills training, and he is (rightly so) asking to Scout troop to supply when a boy moves up in program. Further, there are other skills boys need in life to be ready for manhood. National long ago took cooking out of the Eagle mix. We stop teaching it at first class. I submit, as a divorce`, that cooking properly and well is a basic and essential skill of manhood! So, all the way around the cape, we need the leadership in both youth and adult training, we need the skills in both youth and adult training, AND... because colleges, universities, the Armed Forces, and even vo-tech schools are looking for it from youth... We need the emphasis on advancement which some say is overdone. Sad, but from my observation, true.

To Mike Barnhill, You need to read Advancement, BSA #33215, for the current calendar year!!! To your specific question, Scoutldr quoted the BSA Swim test. Complete the test. The operative word is "swimmer." Not beginner (red by buddy tag system), not non-swimmer (white by buddy tag system), SWIMMER. To Sue M the Beaver! Advancement #33215 has the procedure list in exquisite detail for a special needs Scout who has to replace swimming with a different physical activity. For an unofficial looksee at the list, see: http://www.meritbadge.com/adv/t21-alt.htm Short versions: The special need is "permanent." Parents, docs, council advancement committee, special needs professionals, and the Scout Exec work as a team to determine an appropriate substitute requirement within the capabilities of the youth concerned. YIS

AMEN!!! That goes for council job apps, physicals, in fact, just about every list imaginable.

If we did not have bleachers at our Council ring, we would be unable to accommodate all the youth and adults who want to attend ceremonies, supporting the various candidates. Youth members especially should get the reinforcement of seeing the ceremonies several times over. Of course, I often get a different perspective on the "ethic" of an Arrowman when I see a different (either by new blood in our own C-team, or by seeing another Council's team) C-team doing a ceremony.

Mr PE, I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree with you. First, Cub Scouting is the fertile soil from which Boy Scouts (and Arrowmen) grow. 8-10 year olds like seeing older teen boys doing cool things. For our program purposes, that means Boy Scouts! Second, OA is the honor camping society of the Boy Scouting program. Over the years, Cub Scouting has increased the camping available to it. In my Council, we have Family Camping for the entry level Bears (2 day, 1 night, 1 parent/1 youth resident camp program chock full of activities); 2 years of 4 day/3 night Webelos camping, and then they off to Boy Scouting. We need the Lodge to support this, to show leadership in action, to be present with (in our council) arrow necklaces with all their Lodge coups. Let's not forget Day Camp, with its ongoing need for J-staff (and how many young men can get their first taste of work serving for a week of fun with young boys?) As I see things, National is trying to move the entire program towards a seamless whole. The Lodge is a viable and valuable tool for this; we need these young men to reach back and support parents and leaders who never heard of Scouting until Pack recruitment night, as well as parents and leaders who are 2d or 3d generation Scouts and/or Arrowmen. YIS John Ordeal Walika 228 (SFV Council) 1970 Brotherhood Walika 228 (SFV Council) 1971 now an adult with Tamegonit (not 147) (HOAC Council) since 2002

This is a two edged sword. On one hand, with a few years of fieldcraft from both Scouting and Uncle under my belt, I found the outdoor leader trainings I've attended to be "pro forma" or check-a-block. On a different hand, I recognize there is only so much that can be done in a weekend. Even so, there are a lot of great "trainers" who don't know squat about the skills they are teaching. Sooo... as a Roundtable staffer, I'm always looking for technical points of view we can bring in ... In spite of everything, we find our annual critique sheets asking for more equipment and skills classes at RT, but we never have more than 5-7 folks sign in ... and the folks we get to train are GOOD ... both technically and as people persons. It's a problem we're going to face more in the future as the Greatest Generation passes on, and fewer of us were raised with the outdoors as part of our lives! My thoughts. Others will have different. That's ok.

I have to agree with anarchist. If an ASM is unwilling to follow the lead of THE PROGRAM OFFICER (Scoutmaster), then he is a hindrance, rather than a help. The CC and the SM need to work off the same page: Do the actions of the other adults in this unit SERVE THE SCOUTS?

I agree with most everything Lisabob has said above. We keep forgetting why we decide to invest in Scouting instead of Rotary, Kiwanis, or Masonic. WE CHOOOSE TO SERVE OUR YOUTH!!! When we lose persepctive on that, then it's harder to justify the investment and the effort ... and we lose the adults. As someone else said, many adults cycle through the program because their youth is around, but they're not making a life choice of Scouting as a corner of their lives.

Yes, "stump the chumps" (err, Council Executive Board members) was rather fun, since we had a couple of places where they were flat out wrong. I think that's part of the fun of WB: There is so much to Scouting that one cannot know it all, and when you bring together a bunch of us, we all learn together.

Ahhh. Now the light blinks on. I think Lisabob hit the nail on the head. Given the time we received the game (about 8:30 PM Saturday of weekend 1), our minds were stretched and we were slowing down a tad. A quality explanation of the Dilemma afterwards would have been a help. I do have one question for the group: Is "Scouting Jeopardy" a piece of the Curriculum, or is it something my local staff thought up on their own. It was fun, and it promoted intr-patrol teamwork. John A Good Old Owl...

Long Haul, I think we're pretty close to violent agreement. Do the youth come home from a campout SAFE, HEALTHY, and HAVING LEARNED A LESSON OR TWO? Those are the big ticket items I expect leaders to handle. Was the supper "yucky" because they did something really dumb with the mac and cheese? That's a youth responsibility. Depending on the availability of older (14-17) youth, the adults may end up drawing out the LESSON though. Time to get kid to music lesson. Chauffeurs are us!

From the Guide to Safe Scouting (regrettably, this is not the best available one at scouting.org, I cannot get there at the moment): From the MANDATORY POLICY (boldface) guidance: Qualified Supervision All swimming activity must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in his or her care, who is experienced in the water and confident of his or her ability to respond in the event of an emergency, and who is trained in and committed to compliance with the eight points of BSA Safe Swim Defense. (It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently certified as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conduct of all swimming activity.) Lifeguards on Duty Swim only where there are lifeguards on duty. For unit swims in areas where lifeguards are not provided by others, the supervisor should designate two capable swimmers as lifeguards. My note: See above about lifeguards being provided by others!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From the amplifying material in G2SS: Pool and Surf Swimming The Safe Swim Defense applies to swimming at the beach, private or public pool, wilderness pond, stream, lake, or anywhere Scouts swim. Here are some additional points for the pool and the surf. Pool -- If the swimming activity is in a public facility where others are using the pool at the same time, and the pool operator provides guard personnel, there may be no need for additional designation of Scout lifeguards and lookout. The buddy system is critically important. however, even in a public pool. Remember. even in a crowd, you are alone without protection if no one is attentive to your circumstances. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note the comment that at a commercial pool where lifeguards are provided, the burden shifts. Note the comments on the buddy system. ESPECIALLY WITH CUBS: Note the rules regarding ability groups. Be VERY CAREFUL with youth in deep water. Following the principles of Safe Swim Defense, as FScouter said, is an absolute MUST!!! Remember: ANY aquatic activity conducted by a Scout unit automatically requires the planning needed for a TOUR PERMIT to happen. YIS. John A BSA Lifeguard(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Some thoughts here: There are definitely places to "win" and "lose:" WAR is one. Nation-states fates hang on winning or losing wars. Athletics is another. Most games have scoring systems. The premise I understand of "The Game with a Purpose" is Scouting is a PROCESS, not a series of EVENTS. I want the youth to learn from every experience he has, whether it's successfully pitching his tent the first time, cooking his own kebab over the fire, doing the bowline, or selling someone on an Eagle Leadership Service Project. I'm also, by training and profession, a soldier: While I believe in individual responsibility, the LEADER is responsible for all which happens or fails to happen. In a Scouting context, that places oversight responsibility on adults. The youth, through the patrol method and the boy-run troop, design and execute the program. The adults are there, to be in an "oversight" role. The issue here is designing the consequences. The action is the youth meeting with adults, as part of our structured Scouting program. The POSITIVE outcome, if the youth is ready, is he advances. The NEGATIVE outcome, if the youth is not ready, is he doesn't advance TODAY. Think for a second about planning the food for a campout. If the cooks and grubmaster don't plan hot drinks on a cold winters day, the patrol has lots of chattering teeth. That's an OK consequence. If, however, in spite of layering, appropriate heating fires, and head coverings, a Scout's shivering moves from teeth chattering towards his losing control of his voluntary muscles, that's a NOT OK consequence, and it's time for leaders to intervene. Involving the youth in that negative consequence, getting him to buy into the consequence, has great learning value. I work in a think tank. Lots of what we do is collaborative in nature. We contribute more when we're part of the process. That's how I've come to approach this. Bottom Line: I want to have every tool available to me to help the young man grow up to take his station in society. I have him in Scouting, maybe only for a year or two, maybe for seven. I want him to leave Scouting so that 20 years later, he's more than willing to bring his own son back to the movement. Your question implied you wanted more than me telling you the time; so you got how I build the clock factory YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Two tricks of the trade I've used as a CC: First, I never tell a Scout he's failed his BOR. If it's that obvious something is awry, I shift the discussion to "being prepared" ... and then I ask if we honestly need to adjourn the Board for a time (a day, a week, two weeks)... Second, if the BOR is going South, I have put the board in to "Executive Session" and gotten ahold of the parent. Sometimes, talking 1 on 3 with grownups can just be intimidating. Other times, the Scout may be tired out from other activities, and his mind has clicked off. Either way, the Board needs feedback from the parent. For the original poster, there is always the option of contacting the UC or the District Advancement Chairman and asking for help in teaching HOW TO RUN A BOR!!! You just have to work at this stuff for their sake!