John-in-KC

Did what jr56 recommended: Contacted my local professional staff. My District Director asked around the Council professional and commissioner staff: No objections whatsoever.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Trevorum, Like you, I earned my MBs the "cold call" way. My district is blessed: We run YP training and MBC training every month at roundtable, so we can get adults started in Scoutering using skills they have. We have some phenomenal Troop-Troop relationships, so we can send Scouts out ... now, for THEM it's a cold call. Between Scoutmasters, there's quite a bit of horse trading going on. The biggest challenge these days is keeping environments appropriate for the cold calls: As Trevorum mentioned, in my day Dad would drop me at 7 and pick me up at 8:30. We thought nothing of it. Just can't do that anymore. I suspect PART of the reason "merit badge mills/colleges" came about was the challenge of counseling under the YP policies. Anyone who's been around a while care to comment on that?

Fred, Werk is the curse of the (insert activity here) man. Most of the office is on a beta test for new software through the 27th, but I'm trying to get the resources together to be at PTC for relationships week. John

My son is Life with one MB and a project to go. I've found him the "heart only" life patch for both his Scout and Venturing Class A shirts. As CC, I've found the 1970 era SPL, ASPL, (2) Quartermaster, and (2) Scribe patches. We're going to use them on a rotating basis for the Scout currently SPL. BTW, the Executive Officer of my Chartered Partner has signed off as saying appropriate.

I take it from your post in the membership thread that your Lodge is keeping the OA number. How did you, your LEC, and your supporting Professionals arrive at that decision? To other youth Arrowmen, from someone who can't vote anymore (x2 plus) ... sometimes the history IS more important than the guidelines. TIA

BINGO!!! FScouter, you and I are at the polar opposites of the uniforming (construction, fit, finish) spectrum: You said "One would not wear high tech hiking clothes to a court of honor or a troop meeting." I believe Supply Division is grossly negligent in NOT developing a uniform that is high tech, high-wear, and can be worn seasonally in the field as well as to troop meetings and COH. Trevorum mentioned BP and "Parlour Scouting." That's the uniform Supply Division has saddled us with IMO. The fabrics are wrong for outdoor activities. The finish and wearability are wrong for outdoor activities. The fit is marginal for outdoor activities. My $0.04, adjusted for inflation.

KS and all, Thank you all for your input. Because our Council has an internal honor camping organization (troop committee nominates), we had a special committee meeting last night. I made sure to invite Mom and Dad to the meeting. The young man is not going with us to camp this year. When I called for a motion to advance this young man, his nomination died for want of a motion! His parents didn't show; indeed when I talked to them, my assessment was they wanted us to do all the work. I won't write him off, neither will my SM nor I invest significant effort. It's his to decide, come mid-August, when he hits 17 years, 184 days, the decision is made.

It's parsing time... "The boys sleep at the patrol site in 2 man Voyager tents while JL's and adults sleep in a seperate area" I hope the junior leaders and the Scouters are sleeping in two separate areas. Otherwise, this is a Youth Protection and G2SS violation. "Each patrol is responsible for cooking breakfast and dinner on a wooden stove with wood they gather themselves" Leave No Trace... "Most classes are taught by one adult leader with assistance from one or two JL's," Boy Led Troop... "Each new scout is tested their first day at camp to determine their swimming proficiency. The best swimmers may use the rafts, lesser swimmers must stay in the bouyed area (roughly 3.5 feet deep), and scouts who are poor swimmers are limited to the bathing area only." Doesn't conform to the Guide to Safe Scouting. Further, the non-conformance is in the MANDATORY areas of G2SS. "Waterfront supervision will consist of a lifeguard in a rowboat out at the rafts and 2 adults on shore with a JL." And that conforms to the BSA Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat Programs HOW??? Adult Supervisor!!! Designated Lookout!!! TWO Designated Lifeguards on shore!!! One LG supporting the swimmers at the raft? Has anyone taught this troop reach-throw-row-go-WITH SUPPORT? At a bare minimum, there should be TWO LG's supporting the raft ... ideally, a "buddy boat" pair, 4 LG's supporting. Have to wonder: How many of the youth performing LG duty are trained BSA Lifeguards? Gotta wonder: Have the youth been asked if they want to do a High Adventure, go to the Council camp, or if this was presented to them by the Committee and the SM as a fait accompli?

Ed, Follow the Aims and Methods of Scouting. For me the bottom line is: Baden-Powell designed this game with a purpose a century ago. It's still working today. If it works, AND IT DOES, don't go and fix it. My two cents.

The thread on the 12 1/2 year olds doing Life--->Eagle has me thinking about one of my Scouts. As a CC, I want to provide all the youth of my troop the opportunities afforded by Scouting. I have a 17 year old, who transferred in this charter cycle. He's still Star. I think his parents are pushing him to stay in Scouting. BTW, no special needs are out there that I know of. I've asked the SM to hold a SM conference with the young man. I'm then going to hold a BOR with him. I *think* I want to invite the parents to that BOR. Not every Scout will achieve Eagle. That's a given. I just want to be certain the Scout and his family know the road in front of them, if he chooses to go forward. I also want to be sure he and they know the "mathematical elimination date" to do the work and get the Eagle SM conference done. Have others of you encountered this? How have you dealt with the challenge? TIA(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Private message coming your way

Ed, The question is and continues to be: Are the methods of Boy Scouting Interdependent? Remember what we, as Scouters are charged to do: Instill in young men the three AIMS of Scouting: Character Development -- Citizenship Training -- Personal Fitness To achieve those three aims, we have eight methods: Ideals -- Patrols -- Outdoors -- Advancement -- Adult Association -- Personal Growth -- Leadership Development --Uniform I submit if you go all the way back to the writings of Baden-Powell, let alone ET Seton, you will find that WHAT SCOUTING DOES AND HOW WE ADULTS MAKE IT HAPPEN is both synergistic and interdependent. Here are some quotes from Baden-Powell: Character Development -- "An individual step in character training is to put responsibility on the individual." "We never fail when we try to do our duty, we always fail when we neglect to do it." Citizenship Training -- "Correcting bad habits cannot be done by forbidding or punishment." "The whole intention of the Boy Scouts' Training is for peaceful citizenship." Personal Fitness -- "A scout does not smoke." "Hiking, too, where you go farther afield, exploring new places every day, is a glorious adventure when once you know how to do it properly. This you learn through being a Scout." Ideals -- A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout; no matter what colour, class or creed the other may belong" Patrols -- "The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond." "The object of the patrol method is not so much having the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy." "The troop of boys was divided up into 'Patrols' of five, the senior boy in each being the Patrol Leader. This organisation was the secret of our success. Each Patrol Leader was given full responsibility for the behaviour of his patrol at all times ... " "You join a patrol, or ... raise a patrol yourself by getting five other boys to join..." Outdoors -- "Scoutmasters need the capacity to enjoy the out-of-doors." "Now I am down here preparing my Boys Camp. It is the perfect place for it - a splendid island, well-wooded and wild, giving plenty of scope for Scouting. I think we shall have a very good time if the weather is only kind, which it doesn't promise to be at the moment." "Who of you would want to spend a fortnight under canvas with a troop of other boys, and under the care of General Baden-Powell? Is there a boy in all the land whose heart does not jump with joy at the prospect?" Advancement -- "The spirit is there in every boy; it has to be discovered and brought to light." Adult Association -- "Success in training the boy depends largely on the Scoutmaster's own personal example." Personal Growth -- "The most important thing that a great many boys need to learn is to look at the bright side of things and to take everything by the smooth handle. I myself found that a great lesson . . ." "... 6. Any boy who misbehaves himself, or is found otherwise undesirable in camp may be sent home at any time." Leadership Development -- "But I quite agree with you one wants to teach these boys the quality of not 'grousing' - and I think that may come as a result of such training as that of 'Scouts' - for they are not born grousing: there is hope if one catches them young enough . . . The Loafers are the grousers." Uniform -- "Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader." "The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country." SWScouter said it for me: "...for the program to work as designed, it is required that all eight methods be employed by the troop." YIS

Ed Mori posted this in the COmplete Uniform Thread: think you missed the point, Bob. The uniform is NOT required to be a BSA member, but it is required if you want to attend Jamboree. Now, what about the unit in which no one owns a uniform. They can't attend Jamboree unless they buy one? How is that right? Sure the uniform is one of the Methods of Scouting. But the Methods of Scouting are not requirements and they are not interdependent on each other. That said, I agree with acco. It is hypocritical. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whoa, Nelly, Ed!!!! "But the Methods of Scouting are not requirements and they are not interdependent on each other." Ideals Patrols Outdoors Advancement Adult Association Personal Growth Leadership Development Uniform Adult Association supports Advancement and Leadership Development. Leadership Development comes from Outdoors, Patrols and Personal Growth... I'm throwing the baloney sandwich flag on this one! They are interdependent, and fully so. And yes, the Uniform Method contributes, IMO to ideals and personal growth.

Training, training, and more training!!! All of you, including the young man in question, need: - Youth protection training. - Boy Scout Fast Start Training. - New Leader Essentials Common Core - New Leader Essentials Scoutmaster Specific. - New Leader Essentials Outdoor Skills (If that's not the tech name, please update me!). - Merit Badge Counselor orientation. For the moment, I assume the SM and you both have the first four above. You might also ask your unit commissioner to come by and visit. Finally, there has to be a Scouter out there your young ASM has encountered and respects ... he might be the one to welcome him to the adult side and explain the differences between being IN the program and being an adult supporting the program. Finally, the young man in question is still age-eligible to be "in the program" for Venturing. He may (heck most of us DO) need a healthy outlet for his energy.

WOW!!! I like the idea NJCS and Vicki put forward. Yes, my Council does a re-up every year. BUT ... we don't send out the requirements. That may be worth doing. More importantly, it may be time for BSA to put the requirements online. Thanks, all John

To Eagle in KY: One comment: Venturing as a program is (and many Crews in fact are) co-ed, hence the chaperoning is not so trivial as your great post otherwise implies

Eammon, You hit the rub of my District's problem! "The hope is that the Counselors will keep current." We are finding they are not, even folks who are on Commissioner staff. The challenge, as with all in these days of Too Much Information, is getting the "Heads Up" that change is about to or has just happened.

I was reading the Nuclear Science thread ... and several of the folks here seemed bamboozled that the Atomic Energy MB was dropped in Requirements 2005 in favor of Nuclear Science. That said, Irving put a bunch of MBs through the rewrite cycle for this year. Half a dozen of the Eagle Required list, and a bunch of others. Railroading in particular had a needed overhaul. In a perfect world, I presume someone in Corporate Communications SHOULD HAVE gotten the word out through Scouting Magazine and our professionals. So, for the group: How does YOUR Troop Committee advancement person (or your District Advancement Committee folk) track changes in the advancement program so that youth are not starting a MB under obsolete requirements? For me, I'm grateful to the guy who maintains meritbadge dot com. YIS

Like TA, I'm a member of Tamegonit (no longer 147, the youth voted it out like good automata folowing new national guidelines). Like Trevorum, my Ordeal Lodge was Walika 228, out of the San Fernando Valley Council. My Ordeal was 1970, my Brotherhood the next year. Next week I'll be down at our first induction weekend as a campmaster on duty.

As far as the Order pulling youth away from the Troop... We're talking about young MEN ... NOT automata. As these young men reach 16-18, they are increasingly finding their individual ways. That way MAY OR MAY NOT be in the path of Monday night Troop meetings and basic skills campouts. OA gives the young man who wants to hone a theatrical intrest an opportunity: Ceremonies team. OA gives the young man who wants to hone an interest in American archeology/anthropology an opportunity: Dance team or north american native costuming. OA gives the young man who wants to hone an interest in retail management an opportunity: Lodge trading post (in our council we have a BSA supply division scout shop, so the honor camping programs run their own specialty trading posts). OA gives young men who want to hone their interst in property management an opportunity: Work for our Ranger. Yes, these are all provided in the Merit Badge program. What I've seen the past few years is that the young men who go fully active in OA tend to have those MBs, and have not had their appetites sated. Remember, there's always a way to deal with recalcitrant adults: Don't accept their dues for the coming charter year. We are here to serve youth, when we become an obstacle rather than a support, it's time to go.

The worst part of all this is the CC had a ready-made opening for a great dialogue with the young man: "Son, I see you wear an ear ring. Can you tell us why you made that choice?" Nice open-ended question. It may lead you down a path of peer pressure amongst his school and play mates. It may lead you down a path of honoring someone special to him in his family. It also give the BOR a chance to work with a Scout is Clean in a very practical way: How do you care for that? How do you manage an infection? (There's an opening to discuss what he learned from first aid (no, not retest!)). Like another poster, I have neither piercings nor tatoos, and I don't intend to get any. As for the Scout and his Dad, I do hope they found another Troop. I suspect, though, BSA lost them for good.

Laurie, I'd take a serious look at a Red Wing shoe store. They specialize in footwear for folks who are out of doors, both in the trades and in "leisure work"

Jerry, Wherever you are, thanks for having one of the hardest jobs in the Armed Forces: Being the buffer between the officer corps and the NCO corps. Thanks also for a heckuva lot of footlocker mentoring you've given to young LTs down through the years. I don't know you, but the Command Sergeants Major I've known, especially at battalion level, are the ones who taught the bigger lessons. We'll just have to see where and how we place the patch as time goes on. I thought I saw one proposal where it moves to the right breast, above the pockets. We'll know later. You've also brought up my one genuine pet peeve in Scout uniforming: Scouters who let Scouts wear the Armed Forces uniform, especially battle dress. Apparently too many Scouters out there do not understand the sweat equity that comes with Basic, AIT, OBC, PLDC, BNCOC, OAC, ANCOC, (formerly) CAS3, CGSOC, the Sergeants Major Course, and the war college. Those who wear the Armed Forces uniforms have bloody well earned the privilege.

Not a nerve Definitely something that had lain on my heart a while. Raising the next generation to adulthood is THE essential task of a parent. Scouting, IMO, is the 2d best tool in the toolbox (Church and God being first). We do here get waaay down in the weeds, and there are times where the arcana is just "over the top." It hits a point where using the Scouting tool can be a CHORE, not a JOY. We only have so much energy. Field v A, for me, is no longer the best use of my energy. To me, it's the penultimate arcana of Scouting. Fair? Off to camp for commisisoner staff training. Back online Sunday late or Monday. YIS

As a Committee Chair, I advocate the Scout uniform. I set an example. I wear it to Troop meetings most of the time (sometimes I'm busting butt to get home from work, and all I can grab are my Mic-O-Say claw and OA arrow necklaces). I use the uniforming METHOD as part of my Boards of Review. Start with simple stuff: Patrol patch, Council CSP, numbers, neckerchief and slide for a new Scout. More at Tenderfoot, more at Second... At first I expect clean, neat and right on the shirt. I'm advocating Scout pants/shorts, but I insist on clean, neat, and fitting pants first. "Butt cracks" don't cut it. I've adjourned Boards of Review if a candidate for Star did not have his Merit Badge sash, so he can tell us about what he's earned and why he values/devalues it. Note I said: Adjourn the BOR. The Scout comes back when he's ready. I've adjourned a Board of Review for a Life Scout who didn't have his OA lodge flap on. Does he not value the accolade of his peers? My District guests, to a man and woman, made the four Eagle BORs I sit very easy: They simply ask the young man if he's not proud of Scouting if his uniform is neither complete nor right. That happened once. The other young men got the message. YIS Post Scriptum: I'm very fortunate. Several of the young men in my Troop and Crew have the self-confidence to wear Scouting, OA, and Mic-o-Say shirts to school. When I ask these men to be uniformed, they turn out with quiet pride (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)