John-in-KC

Here is my read: A 6 mile day hike, that does not involve setting a base camp, does not qualify. Look at the literal language: On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision: Backpack for at least four miles. To me, "neither adding to nor taking from" for this requirement means: a. Camp is already set when the hike begins. The hiker is under a shouldered burden vice a belted burden. b. Camp will be set at the end of the hike, using the gear the Scout is carrying on his back. c. The Scout is moving some of his gear, on his back, to the site, but some gear will be accessed from the troop trailer at the site. Out from the house in the morning, back to the house in the evening does not meet the base of 9b. Now, if the Scout is in LT camp, and there is a 6 mile day hike under pack from camp? To me, it qualifies. My two cents.

Like everyone else, WELCOME!!! No one here seems to have mentioned actual training classes. The two easiest pieces of training to accomplish are Youth Protection and Cub Scouting Fast Start. They are online. Both of these should be findable at your local Council website. Enjoy the journey!!! John

Shows the aims and methods at work... The youth appear to lack adequate adult supervision (2 deep rule, supportive leaders). Have the youth jelled into formal or informal groups (patrol method)? If they have jelled, their activity path seems to be not focused on constructive approaches. For the older youth, I would indeed recommend a Crew. For the younger youth, consider BSA and GSUSA units.

Hmmm, interesting. My Council has a BSA Supply Division Scout Shop. Try to find a non-BSA catalog item in it ... I dare you. It sells the mini-sashes, and when I last saw them break a new supply out, it came from a Supply Division box. I'm too old to change. The Universal Arrow for me, thanks. John

I am told by the youth officers of my Lodge that National Committee on OA removed the "looping sashes on the belt loop" sometime between 1977 and 2000. Of course, they also came up with the mini-sashes where we all used to have our Universal Arrows.... Oh, well. It's the current crop of young men who get to run the Order; the rest of us support them

Following up on ehcalum, BSA Lifeguard has a shelf life of three years.

I also agree on the importance of OA. As young men mature, their interests start diverging. OA, Council contingent crews to Philmont/SeaBase, Brownsea, camp staff, all provide outlets for the growing young man. The Scoutmaster who thinks parochially of his Troop, and not of the needs of EACH of his growing young men, qualifies for the One-Dee-Ten-Tee award imo. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Eric, Since I'm an adult, I don't have a vote anymore. I gave that up in 1977. I do what the youth want. First and foremost, if the National Committee sets a policy, Lodges have somewhat limited discretion in implementing it. If the basis of a new policy is implementing an element of the G2SS, then the discretion drops to *NONE WHATSOEVER*. As far as the supporting documents behind the Nemat procedure (vice the brotherhood interview), you know who to contact in your Lodge and Council. I will simply say this: Tamegonit (ex 147), Heart of America Council, implemented the Nemat program in 2003. It was done by vote of the LEC. Over the three years, what we've actually done on the hike has not fully stabilized, but we're working on that. Hope this helped.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Pretty much everything said here is darn good advice. I just had my longest BOR in my tenure as a Scouter: 45 minutes. We took the young man to Life. Lots of open ended questions, lots of working to instill insights on how a good leader sets the example ... especially when he's following a leader. If a BOR isn't going well, the CC/Advancement coordinator should know in the first 5-10 minutes (heck, the first ***3***). If a young man needs an adjournment for whatever the reason, please, DON'T take him A-Z and say "too bad, so sad." You've just created a retention problem for yourself ... and that is NOT goo. My two cents.

If I Recall Correctly...

Trevorum, One of the advantages of going to Commissioner's college. Our Council's director of accounting and insurance gives the liability and tour permits class: RULE ONE: The tour permit is a planning process. USE THE PROCESS EVERY TIME your unit plans an activity. RULE TWO: LOCAL (Council) Tour permits are required: - Outside your own District. - ALL Overnight activities. - ANY aquatics activities. - ANYTIME the host facility (example a military base) requires a tour permit. RULE THREE: The boundary between a LOCAL tour permit and a NATIONAL tour permit is 500 miles. Here's a hyperlink to my Council's one-pager on tour permits: http://hoac-bsa.org/ae_links/tour_permit_info.pdf BTW, BSA source documents include Tours and Expeditions (33737C) and G2SS (34416B). PLEASE NOTE: The rules change for our Council in September. Hope this helps.

My unit chartered partner is local VFW post. IIRC, both the Legion and the VFW have tasked their local posts with a NATIONAL MISSION: Ensure no BSA unit goes out for want of a chartered partner.

To specifically answer your question, ask your Lodge C-team chief, Lodge Advisor, or professional Staff Advisor... My Lodge moved away from the Brotherhood interview to the group Nemat trail ... 3 seasons ago. We've had several different forms of the questions for the stops on the trail. I'm not sure there is a standard format yet. We review, in a group format, the same basic knowledge found in the old Brotherhood questionaire. Hope that helps...

My primary position is committee chair for my Troop. I am a committeeman on my son's Crew. I am the physical arrangements guy on the District Roundtable staff; I wear a Boy Scout RTS patch for that. We won't talk about the other "one hours a week" jobs that don't have registrations associated with them. Part of this depends on where an adult places Scouting in the scheme of his/her life. There are folks out there in VFW, Legion, Rotary, Kiwanis, Masonic, Knights of Columbus land ... all of whom have dedicated their MAJOR COMMUNITY SERVICE time outside the family and church to their organizations. I've found these past few years that Scouting has these same sorts of folk ... our focus is raising up young men and women for our community service. My thoughts

Trevorum, Not a bad idea... Strike uniform from the list for Venturing Crews, though. Uniform is *NOT* a method for them

Well, to me... Bold print in G2SS are rules. Those are things that directly affect physical safety of youth. Youth protection policies (which are in G2SS) are rules. They provide a framework to protect the youth for inappropriate activity, both adult/youth and youth/youth. The Advancement program has several rules, the first one being the requirements for Eagle and the waiver procedures. The Oath, Law, motto and slogan are good rules for all of us, youth and adult alike. Tonight I give Scouter of the Month at RT to a dear friend. This friend epitomizes Trustworthy, Loyal and Helpful!

Welllll, if you're Mother Army .... It takes a lot of design attempts, with a host of testing at the lab (Natick Labs in MA), before an article of the uniform even goes out to field units for testing. Field units around the world (weather appropriate) test the uniform, at not cost to the troops. Wear tests can run for up to a year. There is a board of officers and senior NCOs (Generals and Sergeants Major) who vote a recommendation to the Chief of Staff of the Army. When the Chief signs off, then the time clock starts for wearing out the existing article and replacing it with the new item. By the way, the process is fairly transparent. The Army Times, the (now) Gannett paper that specializes in the US Army, maintains visibility over all manner of uniform and equipment article changes. Bottom line: Users have direct input, and the process of changing Army uniforms is done "in the full light of day."

LPC_Thumper ... Not just AOL and heroism awards... He can also carry forward (for lifetime) his religious award knot and any Fellowship knots (James E West etc) donated in his name. (Not that very many 11 year olds have the West knot)...

Sitrep, Let's chat a bit. Like you, I'm an adult. I'm an Arrowman from my youth. Selection was way back in 1970. As an adult, as an ASM, you CAN have access to the ceremonial materials of the Order of the Arrow. Call you Council Office, ask to speak to the Staff Advisor for OA. It's often (not always) the professional who is in charge of your council camp. In smaller Councils, you may be asking to visit with the Scout Executive. The Order IS an honor camping society. It's an extension of the program. It promotes brotherhood, cheerfulness and service (remember Arrowmen: This is stuff that folks can hear whenever C-Team opens a Tap-Out and Pre-Ordeal in a public forum) . Those three values DO dovetail with Scouting's ultimate purpose of raising up good young citizens! The following is a quote from the 1970 printing of the 1965 OA Handbook. It applies even today: "The Order of the Arrow is not a secret society. An air of mystery does surround its ceremonies and meetings, but this is done because of its appeal to boys. Boys who are nonmembers should not be permitted to attend Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Vigil ceremonies. Scout leaders, clergymen, educators, parents and others who wish to know the full story o fthe Order may easily find the answers to their questions by inquiring through their council office." As to your question: "Why does BSA need OA?", I can give you my top four reasons: 1) It provides an outlet for older youth who aspire to larger leadership. Many of these young men are already transitional Scouters ... but this keeps them within the program and growing. 2) It provides labor to Council camps. I will grant you my Council is large and my Lodge is large. Thus far this year, my Lodge has given 3 MAN YEARS of volunteer labor in its first two induction weekends to our two council Reservations. 3) It encourages study of the American Indian, in all their many tribal families. Cheyenne are not Lenni Lenape are not Chumash are not Apache are not Yana are not Osage are not Mohawk are not Yahi. 4) It provides an outlet within Scouting for those who are budding artists and artisans. I've seen young men who have learned how to do glass beadwork so they could make authentic attire for ceremonies. I've seen young men dance their hearts out to traditional Indian dances of many tribes. You'll find many of my words here spoken by others in this thread, sitrep. I hope we can continue this conversation. To LauraT7: Meameng's and Trevorum's comments are smack on. I trust you regularly attend district roundtable or committee. Adults enter the Order because of the added value they will bring to the program. If you have time, energy, and skills, contact your chairman, your unit commissioner, and/or your district executive. YIS John Ordeal Walika 228: 1970 Brotherhood Walika 228: 1971(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Hunt, Problem is, I've seen a couple of Eagle District Guests in action... They've just said "This board is adjourned," handed me back the app, and walked out. I cannot think of too many worse ways to humiliate a young man. So... I want to get to the deeper matters of the Oath, Law, ad infinitum "Why is Loyalty important?" "How can Loyalty and Obedience conflict with Trustworthiness?" "How does Reverence work together with Helpfulness?" It's sorta hard to do that when he doesn't know the material. I cannot stop the advancement. Not the BOR's job. I can work with the young man to help him to learn to deal with pressure. The best tool I know to deal with task pressure in the workplace is to (no surprise here) BE PREPARED for the task at hand. By the time we get these young men as Scouts, we grown-ups are fine-tuning their character. We have to make each opportunity to do that count. My thoughts.

What an appropriate time for this thread... Last night, had a BOR for Life. The young man had his MBs done, had his service time done, had his leadership time done. Divided up the labor as CC: One member would ask about MBs earned and planned, along with the deeper parts of the Scout motto and slogan. Another was going to take his service and the Scout Oath. I took his leadership and the Scout Law. We didn't get very far before asking him if "Being Prepared" including being prepared for his BOR. It's hard to ask about how the Scout Oath and Law play out in his daily life if he locks up at Thrifty... We asked him if he would prefer we adjourn the BOR for two weeks ... He nodded sheepishly yes. We praised him for his moral courage in saying yes to adjournment.

Hunt, Good topic. It's also a problem in our District. We have a Merit Badge Corner at Roundtable. Normally usaually generally most of the time we do non-Eagle badges. In May, because of the changes to Cit in Nation, we did it instead. Got a lot of interest when we said new requirements as of 1 January this year. We're trying to get the Advancement Operating Committee of the Distict Committee to get a flyer out to SMs and CCs. Council registrar staff in my council sends out the renewal forms. All they're making sure of is that you're registered in Scouting and that you have fewer than the Council limit on MBs. With the sheer volume of changes in the program over the next few years, this is going to be a hole in the system unless we fix it. Much as we want to think people stay current, the sad fact is ... sometimes you have to turn on the spotlight to get their attention.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Gentlemen... You've made a good and proper decision IMO. History is worth keeping. Thank you for your feedback. In Friendship, Warmth, and Cheeful Service (yes, I'm also Mic-O-Say )

Simple. PLC bought into the policy. It's a matter of training time for the youth to be effective. A particular example is our Financial Scribe, who actually handles MONEY under the close supervision of the Treasurer. CP Exec Off came to PLC and said "These are the desires of the Chartered Partner. We expect your concurrence or reasoned objections in one month." The youth agreed with all but one position. The CP compromised there. So ... 6 month election cycle, one year warrant cycle. What's that people keep saying: The Chartered Partner OWNS the unit??? Hmmmm???

Youth run elections for PLC positions semi-annually. Appointed warrants run up to 1 year, with minimum commitment of six months. We buy patches from the Scout Shop at the end of youth tenure. A local business embroiders the patch with Troop and dates of tenure; the youth gets that for his patch jacket/blanket going forward.