John-in-KC

In years past, we've let the OATR have a talk with the Troop about what the Order means. The SM and I have observed from the back. We've then taken offline those who looked like they thought it was going to be a game, as well as those we know to be troublemakers at school. The theme of our talk was simple: This is serious. We have the TR participate with the team in the counting. Finally, we pre-certify eligible Scouts and do a pre-printed ballot. Trevorum's comment applies. In fact, since eligibility is an open fact, we also have the TR call for folks who think they might be eligible. Nothing like participation in the process to help maintain responsibility and ownership.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

To VCservice559: I suggest you go and read your OA Handbook, then talk to either Natami Gegeyjumhet or Nischeneyit Gegeyjumhet, depending on the size of your lodge. The following comes from the handbook I was given at my Ordeal, in 1970. The book is the 1970 printing of the 1965 OA Handbook, page 7: "The Order of the Arrow is not a secret society. An air of mystery does surround its ceremonies and meetings, but this is done because of its appeal to boys. Boys who are nonmembers should not be permitted to attend Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Vigil ceremonites. (emphasis added) Scout leaders, clergymen, educators, aparents and others who wish to know the full story of the Order may easily find the answers to their questions by inquiring through their council office." The secrets are for the youth. The Order operates in the full light of day. Another quote from the 1965 Handbook, page 88: "The Order of the Arrow is not a secret organization. Its ceremonies, therefore, are open to any parent, Scout leader, or religious leader. In its ceremonies it employs the element of mystery for the sake of the Scouts who enter. Its ceremonies are not put on in public at a camp because this would decrease their appeal to the boy as he first participates. This is the same principle that applies in the Tenderfoot investiture ceremony in many Scout troops." If there are not similar words in the current edition of the OA Handbook, they are probably in the Lodge Advisor's book. Cheerful Service!

Ahh, the cotton uniform. GREAT GARMENT. WORE LIKE IRON. I have my pants still, my shirt is the 1st generation (all green) perma press. The uniform you and I wore in 1968 was definitely NOT a uniform for PARLOUR SCOUTS. That's not true today.

Adding to mine: BSA lifeguard every session at Scout Camp. Safe Swim Defense/Safety Afloat every session at Scout Camp. Shooting sports safety in the spring, before day camp/Scout camp season. Chaplain/Chaplain aide annual in January. Pow-Wow annually. May get migrated to a "UOS" format. Commissioners College annually. Don't know all the details of COPE/climbing safety for us.

From Meechgalanne's posts I deduce we have a relatively young Scout here. Assuming this is a younger Scout (6th-9th grades) we probably need to point him first towards his local school and his history teacher. Teachers are great resource people too! John A Good Old Owl Too

Dan, Considering there is a hyperlink to nothing at your History of Scouting thread, It became a uniform for PARLOUR SCOUTS when some idiot who knew nothing of the outdoors chose poly/cotton for the shirt. Doesn't retain warmth, except in summer, and doesn't help wick sweat at all. It became a uniform for PARLOUR SCOUTS when the fit, fabric and finish for the pants won't withstand a single weekend of car camping, let alone a week in the backcountry. There are better designs, better fabrics (the cotton duck and the light cotton duck of Philmont Columbia shorts come to mind), and better finishes for this garment. Supply Corporation can do much better, if they chose. I still have, 40 years later, my youth trousers. I WORE THEM on campouts. The bloody things wore like iron. I outgrew them with height (first, girth came later). I have my Cubbing shirt still ... the heavy all-cotton twill. Even being all cotton, it hangs out its wrinkles and looks sharp on a young 8-10 year old. My thoughts. Obviously we disagree. That's OK. Uniform METHOD is part of Scouting. The current uniform is utterly obsolete.

Here is the html your page reports back: "[!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"] " [HEAD] "[META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-"1252"][HEAD] "[bODY][/bODY] " Quotation marks and converstion from < sign to [ are mine. Quotation signs are mine. Nothing there.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

As a comment, The national bases are not the only places in the world for high adventure: - There are councils with their own HA bases. - There are major trails which have superb HA opportunities (Pacific Crest Trail (John Muir Trail in the Sierra Nevada) comes readily to mind). - Be creative. Do some digging here on the internet. The UPSIDE of going from 1st come, 1st served to the lottery is there were units who broke the rules and went every year. That has been pretty well stopped.

Lest we forget, Both the Chartered Partner and the Troop Committee can give "left and right boundaries" to the SM as the program officer. Boundaries may be simple: Gas is expensive; the driving radius for monthly campouts is N miles. Boundaries may be more complicated: Establishing consequences when boys are unruly beyond what an SPL can handle comes to mind. I'm about to leave my slot at CC. SPL came to my committee meetings. I went to his PLC meetings. I strongly advocate that to any incoming CC. We also need to go back to Lisa's original post: Program Officer (SM) disagreed with the committee. Who works for who? SM works for COR and CC, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. When there are policy disconnects, what happened in Lisa's troop (Friendly airing of concerns at the table) resulted in potential for change. Lisa, let us know how results flow, now that you've had the meeting, please. John A Good Old Owl Too

PRAY: http://www.praypub.org

In my District... New Leader Essentials Common Core, monthly at Roundtable Youth Protection, Monthly at Roundtable Merit Badge Counselor, Monthly at Roundtable Cub Scout New Leader Essentials position specific, twice a year, 1 weekend (all day) and 1 weeknight (2 session) program each cycle. Boy Scout Scoutmaster position specific, Troop Committee Challenge, and SM outdoor, twice a year. Venturing leader specific, as requested, usually council-wide. Wood Badge annually, with folks on west and north sides also attending other area courses. Should note: We're a 300 series Council, with 56000 youth enrolled.

OA and Venturing do mix well, right up to the gender line. There, the mix breaks down. I also attended my Lodge winter banquet last night. Hundreds of young men, in both Scout and Venturing uniforms. I know quite a few of these young folk. They will be area leaders in just a few years. There were about 25 other Venturers. They serve on camp staff, right alonside the Arrowmen. I know several of them as well. Several are high school seniors, planning on college. On is in college, getting ready for 2d semester of freshman year. None of the 25 are Arrowmen. Why? They're young ladies, and they're not yet 21. I don't have the smarts to fix the problem. I see the problem is out there, though. We have a disconnect because the Order's upper age bracket, as a PROGRAM (18-21) coincides with Venturing's upper age bracket in PROGRAM (18-21). We have a secondary problem that young folk 14 and above can work at Scout camps, and since Venturers are members of BSA in full right, they are eligible to work at our camps. My thoughts. Others will disagree. That's OK.

I find myself agreeing with LisaBob. Learning to be a GOOD trainer means learning four different skillsets: 1) Public speaking 2) "How people learn" (Instructional methods) 3) Subject matter knowledge 4) Audience Knowledge I just suffered through an Assistant Director of Field Service doing "Internet Recharter 101." - Speaking skills: OK. - Instructional methods: NO-GO. Lecture with powerpoint that was illegible in the last two rows of chairs. - Subject matter knowledge: NO-GO. READ THE SLIDES. It would have faster for me to take the powerpoint "comic book" home. - Audience knowledge: NO-GO. Over half of us could have been cleared in ten minutes with the "short version, changes since last time." The rest would be ready for the full package. After YP and Fast Start, people pony up $$$ for training. They give of their time to take training, including transportation time to get to the training site. Trainers owe the trainees a quality product.

Places to start a search for Indian history: 1) Google. Go out and set up a search for native american tribal history whatever county whatever state. Something just might come back. 2) Anthropology department at nearest university or junior college. 3) Area history museums. Have fun with this!

My YOUTH Boy's Life subscription lapsed in 1974. The Bible story was about Joseph and his brothers. FAST FORWARD 30 years. David is fighting the Philistines. First, from what I can see, BL only uses OT. OT is common to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Yes, the NT and the Koran offshoot from the OT. Yes, there are different theologies and interpretations on Messiah. Is this really worth our time debating? I'm far more upset with the growing Abramoff scandal and how people in positions of trust took the buck instead of thinking the solution through.

Eamonn said, in part: "If we lived in a perfect world Scout uniforms would be both affordable and very practical. Sadly it seems that many think what we have at present doesn't fit either; they aren't affordable or practical!!" AMEN!!! Exactly my thoughts. The current uniform is for PARLOUR SCOUTS.

Kudu, Yes, my dog tags went around my neck and under my T-shirt. My field gear routinely got caught in the camouflage nettting. They make a dummy cord on a bush seem tame (the bush will yield, camo netting doesn't).(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Prayers for you, indeed; prayers for Derrick's family as well. Prayers also for the driver.

Remember that feedback is a gift! Listen, actively. Lisa, use your judgment which you've demonstrated here in many posts. Listen for the middle ground. Listen for implementation of the Aims and Methods. A chartering number of 40, year to year, means something IS working. If that is a declining number from previous years, then something needs to be looked at and/or changed. John A Good Old Owl, Too

GB: Understood on LDS units not attending PSR. My comment was to the size of the LDS contingent coming to PTC; from the calendars I've seen, I thought they took over the entire "tent city" at the Training side. Acco: Not so fast, Kee-mo-sob-eee. One of our District Commissioners, and the Director of our Council Bear Overnight Resident Camp program, is an active LDS woman. She is a huge resource in our Council since she knows both sides of the program.

I have to agree with Jerry Schleining, having worn the Army black beret after General Shinseki (an Armor officer) and Secretary White (an Armor officer) forced them on the Army. Berets are completely impractical for field wear. Boonie hats and baseball caps rock. In short... DING DONG THE BERET IS DEAD.. THE BERET IS DEAD... THE BERET IS DEAD.

I got the "Hooters" 2006 calendar. 12 Owls John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05

How about this: On my Honor, I will do my best, to do my Duty to God and my Country; to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. Works as a New Years Resolution for me...

FWIW: Philmont Training Center provides an entire week to LDS for national level training. Mind you, virtually the rest of all religions combined can fit into Relationships Week.

Another example of a non-existent National IT policy. It's not rocket science to make a movie file available in the USERS choice of Quicktime, Windows Media Player or Real Player. Most of the software available lets you choose the final format for save-out. Let's next look at file length: Tonight's BFO: THESE WERE PRODUCED FOR BROADBAND USERS. Surprise, Irving: Not everyone, even in urban areas, has broadband yet. Grrrrrrrrrrrr................. What percent of Family FOS gets sent to Irving? I may just diminish my donation that much. Disgusted, John