John-in-KC

Den Chief? CIT at Scout Camp? J-Staff at Cub Day Camp? Make it part of the Grand Game! Let him see that the reward can include fun.

To go to scotteng's point, Some Scouting jobs are simply "do the work." Yes, the Bugler simply has to show up, do the calls at the right time, and he gets it done. Now, if the bugler is just learning the bugle, and all he knows is "To the Color," then the TRAIN and MENTOR of "Train, Assign, Supervise, Mentor" mean the SM helps him learn more bugle calls. Now, whether the Scoutmaster farms out the technical skill to a musician or not is irrelevant: He helps the Scout learn. Keep remembering: The vast majority of youth we touch will meet or exceed our expectations. We're talking about how we deal with a distinct minority. An old adage I learned in church volunteerism and military leadership: 85% of the work (of your time) is done by (is consumed by) 15% of the folk. The same applies to the OATR: He has four simple tasks: - Go to Chapter meeting each month. - Go to Lodge events as they come up on the calendar. - Bring information back to the PLC and the Troop as a whole. - Cheerlead participation in OA events by Scouts and Scouters. What's a reasonable standard for a SM to set: Attend all Chapter meetings, report back after each one. If you cannot attend, tell me in advance and tell me why. If it's a scheduled absence, find a substitute to cover your duties. Good job descriptions and good expectations were in the old unit JLT package. If we the Scouters let the kids ride out their time, don't set expectations, and don't expect results, we deserve to be over-ridden on SM Conference and BOR appeals. We've not done our share of developing our young charges.

8 weeks or so from now Eagle son will audition for which band and which chair he sits after marching season. Being a Senior does not guarantee him a spot in Symphonic Band. Demonstrated ability is pretty much the standard for assignment everywhere now. Seniority doesn't count for much except in 401K accumulations anymore...

Gunny, You will neither be the first nor the last Scouter who takes a Marine Creighton khaki shirt, embroiders Boy Scouts of America across the right breast pocket top, and wears it. Beavah posts of 7/7 and 7/10 hit key points: The uniform needs to be of fabrics suitable to the outdoors, of construction suitable to the outdoors, and of finish suitable mostly to the outdoors but somewhat to the troop meeting. Of course, I've been told the markup on Supply Corporation items is big because the profits fund the National Office. We've stated this before: We need a National uniform design contest. Let college age Venturers who are in design arts be the contestants. If there are any Scouts who have ambitions to recreational outfitting design, let them compete as well. As for me, I'd like to see 3-4 climatic ranges developed against: - -20 to +30 F - 30 to 70 F - 70 up to 120 or above - Wet weather support for all 3 above. Have a juried panel from the recreational equipment industry evaluate the candidate uniforms. The top 5 in each category get made up for field test at Philmont, Double H, Northern Tier, and Sea Base. The winners get serious $$$$ and careers in recreational equipment supporting Scouting. The switchbacks are an early first start in getting it right! Last night I saw the tan Activity quick-dry button shirt. Sure beat the DLR thing I was wearing.

Gunny, I guess folks don't understand that the winnowing from HS to college athletics is steep, and certainly the winnowing to the pro level is hugely steep. I've seen the non-Scouting kids, the non-participating kids, the ones who end up in trouble with the law. I see the kids who commit themselves to Scouting, band, football, whatever... When I see the dedication on a face, when I see the smile when she's exhausted but got it done, when I see the Aims translated from the campsite into the classroom, I get really happy, because those are the young people who "got it". This morning, Eagle son warmed up before band camp with his parts for 3 of his pieces, as well as marching E-Flat warmup scale. Tonight, he'll lead 100 Bears and their adult partners down the trail to campfire, playing his beater tuba with "Do your best, your best, the motto of a Cub Scout;" ... he took a Boy Scout camp ditty that he had no sheet music for and composed a bass melody line for his instrument. Later tonight, he'll play Taps for the camp... on the tuba.

B, I think the bulk of the program is grades 6-9, with some form of downward curve for grades 10-12. Each kid is an individual, and if we unit serving Scouters are not treating him as an individual, woe betide us. No one ever said a SM/ASM/Advisor's job was token. We're choosing to invest heavily into growth and development of boys. Let's use a Quartermaster on a six month tour. He learns: - How to inventory tents. - How to inspect tents. - How to inspect patrol boxes and cook gear (unless the SPL reserves that for himself). - How to help a patrol draw its gear. - How to check gear when it gets turned in. He's going to learn almost all that by doing. Some of it he should learn as a S-TF-2C Scout, drawing gear, and turning it in after the weekend or the LT camp. Do we expect perfection from him? NO. There are going to be holes that slip by him. There will be grease on someones plates; BUT HE LEARNS. If we wanted a parts and materials shopkeeper III from the US Dept of Labor wage boards, we hire one. We don't want a parts shopkeeper!!, we want a boy to learn by participating in the grand game. We're the ones who are obliged to convert seat time into something meaningful. If Terry Lawson doesn't like that, he needs to wander down the corridors either to Chris Wolfe's office (I think he's in the Comptroller shop right now) or Jim Terry's office. Chris was my council comptroller until Jim dragged him back to Irving (I am and remain a working stiff volunteer... highest position I hold is District RT staff), and Jim was Chief Eagle From the Sun, one of the best SE's since Roe Bartle himself, and he was dragged back to Irving by Mr Williams. I'm not a huge fan of Taylorism as a management method, but it has some application for young kids. We are teaching basic skills as we do the grand game. We owe these young men the best start in life we can give them. They're going to be the ones running the Nation when we are deep into our retirement years. They'll have an easier road with the really big challenges if we help them learn the little challenges now. B, I know you have the passion, I hope my passion for raising young men is getting through.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA #33088. You can buy it at your Scout Shop, or you can contact your District Advancement Chairman and look at his copy! The way National has reorganized the website, if those words are not in the 2008 edition, I'll be amazed. Many things read as though they were lifted from BSA publications verbatim. The National Council has been very hot on speaking with one voice, using "The Language of Scouting."

Train, Assign, Supervise, Mentor. That's the point I think we should concentrate on in training Scouters and Scouts in LEADERSHIP. Give the Scout tools for the toolbox. The giver of tools may be a more experienced Scout, it may be an adult, depending on the tools. Give the Scout the job. This traditionally is a SM working with the SPL. I say traditionally because I had to pass muster with both my SPL and my SM to get a Scribe's Warrent, and then an Instructor's Warrant, waaaay back in the early 70s. Supervise the Scout. This is the job of the SPL and ASPLs. Technical backup for warranted offices may come from the adult Committee person overseeing that support area. The SM conducts broader oversight and supervision. Mentor the Scout. This is the job of the SM, and can be done with an encouraging word, a smile, a pat on the back, or Scoutmaster Conferences of varying intensity. As needed, you provide additional training (new skill or clearly, he doesn't understand a skill), supervision, and mentoring. There is a last step, when the job is done: RECOGNIZE!!! When the job is done and done well, you praise the young man. I've advocated for a long time two key elements: - Make sure Mom/Dad understand and will support the Scout in his assigned duties. I've seen Mom and Dad say "$$$$, No!! Billy isn't going to maintain those old tents!" Assigning Billy to be Quartermaster when Mom/Dad are actively opposed is setting the Scout up for failure. As true as this is for appointed offices, it is more so for elected offices. - Make sure the Scout understands the POR he wants before its assigned him, or before he's elected to it. BTW, I've seen exactly one Scout removed for cause: He was so disruptive he was sent home from Scout Camp the day he was to be called for camp honors. We never saw him again, he's since been in trouble with the gendarmerie.

As a reminder to all, If there are issues of lack of confidence in a Scouter, the first correct person to approach is the Committee Chairman. HE/SHE has the right of access to the Chartered Organization Representative (the person who can hire/fire Scouters). The exception is the Scoutmaster: On program, he has right of access. If there are issues of confidence with the Committee Chair, Scouters need to take their concerns to the COR. Period. BSA is a "franchisee" or "licensee" system: We call it Chartering. The community non-profit or business who charters the Scouting system is the owner of record of the unit. Mr Maynard got the correct advice from Scoutldr and Beavah way back at the front of this thread. This kind of issue gets resolved much faster if done properly and quietly, through the Chartered Partner, its Executive Officer and its COR, than it does in a public whining meeting. The working democracy in Scouting is for the youth. The job of Scouters is to support the program.

Quality, Fit, Finish. Even at $37 (which seems to be a dumping price before Grey Switchbacks hit the inventory), Venturing pants and shorts were easily the very worst of the BSA Supply Corporation uniform products. We have a Cabela's and a Bass Pro in our local area. Both offer an identical color, 100% cotton (tighter weave, better construction, belt loops meant for field wear, and so on)... trouser and short. Many Crews have blown off Supply Corporation in favor of the professional outfitter firms. Did I mention the shorts were $21, and the trou $31? What's the diff? Well, instead of a plastic imitation bone button, you get a grey plastic button. I for one am delighted Uniform is NOT a Method of Venturing. We do encourage our young men and women to have appropriate attire, but I know a DC and an ADC who wear "other than" Supply Corporation product.

PS, Remember that if a Scoutmaster declines to sign an Eagle app, he is opening the door to an appeal procedure. Gently remind him that if he declines an Eagle application, he needs his ducks in a row. If Billy calls the DE (or if Billy's parents call the DE) and this gets dumped in the District Advancement Chair's lap, life is going to get very interesting, very fast. This goes back to our "What is an Active Scout" thread. National has set a standard. Unit serving leaders can ignore the standard ... but they have to accept the risk that comes with the action. The outcome none of us want is for the Scoutmaster to lose credibility with his Scouts or with District volunteers. That can be described as a Very Bad Thing.

Where were a lot of people in this: - Patrol Leader - TG (if this is still a new Scout patrol) - ASM overseeing this patrol - Camp SM I've seen Scout camps do it both ways. BTW, when I commish and do various trainings at camp, the Scouters get their cards on-the-spot!! What does the Camp Program Guide or Leaders Guide say? What does the Camp Director, PD, and area head say?

Share your concerns with the CM and ACM, separately. There may be a backstory you've not heard, and an opportunity to give more to help them out. OTOH, they may have hit the high water mark of caring. In that case, share your concerns with the Committee Chair. He/she has the authority to discuss key people changes with the Chartered Organization Rep. Be Prepared, though, to step up to the plate.

"No easy solutions." Amen. To me, the root cause is far deeper than Scouting/School. From what I see, it's the dollar cost of finishing a young person to enter adulthood. Too many parents have not set aside. Parents understand debt is not good. The result is they are looking for any money they can find. Two of the young men who shared Eagle son's COH are footballers. Ran into them at HS senior registration yesterday. Blindingly obvious they have been working strength and conditioning. They are counting on athletic scholarships as Plan A for college. Once the parent decides on Plan A, money becomes the point of deference to coaches over scoutmasters. Eagle son and I visited the band director a couple of weeks ago: I had specific questions since I'll be doing a project for the boosters this year, son had questions about leadership. Director and I ended up talking a bit about young people. A few years back there was a "phenom" whose parents relocated to be in the school! The "phenom" didn't put forth the effort (all-district auditions, honor bands, music festival), but a young man who was OK did. Guess who got the scholarship recommendation (and the money)? The OK kid!! Until we re-prioritize and rationalize how we get post-secondary finishing for life (be it vo-tech, ju co, university, the military,...), we're going to have a problem when Scouting collides with school. My thoughts.

Train Assign then Supervise Mentor and repeat these last two as needed We've had this discussion in recent threads. Here is the National FAQ on the subject: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html Here's a conversation we've had here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=158762 From several conversations here, we seem to have a consensus of 95-99+% of our Scouts will successfully serve their tours in POR. For that last increment, the sad truth is the SM has to be ready to remove a kid for cause and be able to document the removal. From conversations away from the list with some distinguished Scouters, the issue is an Eagle appeal at National burns time, money, and work energy. A secondary issue is parents have threatened Councils and the National Council with lawsuits over Eagles denied. What's the point? Train, assign, supervise, mentor. Most Scouts will be successful, with some teaching and a fair bit of direction. If a Scout is obviously failing, step up the mentorship. If needed, work the Scout so he realizes he's not cutting it, and he steps away from the assignment. Get the Scout to agree his POR time has been unsat, and should not count! My thoughts.

My Eagle son was scheduled to staff at one of our Council's Scout Reservations last year. Had his contract and everything. Then he got his "on-curriculum" date for Band: Whoops, fundamental conflict! (On-curriculum is our Districts buzzword for wrestling, basketball, football, band, drill team, flag team, cheerleaders, ... it means the content is part of the GRADE PLAN, even though first day of school is two weeks away). Fortunately, the other Scout Reservation had a more suitable employment package for him. He even got a RAISE, just for switching jobs. He's in his second season serving Theodore Naish Scout Reservation, on the Bear Family Resident Camp staff

Anything LESS than one month, then a Troop is simply pencil-whipping the physical fitness requirement!

1) You and PLC appear to have only planned the basics. It is meet, right, and salutary to plan in HA for some older youth, Jambo for some older youth, NOAC for some older youth, World Jambo, and so on, and so on. 2) When you and the PLC plan in activities, you take ownership of them. As the PROGRAM side of the unit, you and the PLC set an expectation the Committee will support them. If the Committee doesn't support them, and then supports other events, you have every right to throw the baloney on the table. 3) I will not address Scout accounts. 4) From my last sentence in 2) above: If there is an issue of fairness in funds allocation, that is a matter for you to take offline with the CC. Public chastisement of the Committee rarely gets you places. If you and he disagree, then it can be bumped to the COR for a decision. After all, the Chartered Partner owns the unit. 5) Again, my general comment is: If Scouts are going to do the activity, get it on the annual plan and make the Committee budget against it! My thoughts.

Granted safe scouting rules apply, But some of the very best Den Mothers (yes, I am that old) I knew went and picked up their Den Chiefs from Jr High School. They took care of the transportation. They kept at least one of his Troop T-shirts at their place so he could change. They got together for working breakfasts on Saturday mornings, mapping out the plan of attack. She knew what games he'd do, he knew what her major activity for the meeting was. Yes, you have to modify some of this for these days of YP and SS, and that's sad. The vital, concept though, is still the same: The DC is a trusted partner to the adult, and shares responsibility for the leadership tasks of the Den. He plans together with the Den Leader, together they give the Cubs a grand time. In some Troops, a contributing Den Chief is so important to recruiting that he is excused from much of the Monday Night follies of Troop Meeting. Scoutmasters know he's getting it done, and he's bringing home recruits to his Troop. LL, absolutely ask both Troops. It's a good way to measure who cares about your growth and their own future!

Whatever the issue is, please inform one of the Key 3 in your own Council. If you believe all of them are compromised, at least try talking to the Regional Office first.

Scoutldr, in discussing Out of Council Camps, wrote: "True, unless you're eleven. They don't remember that Oceanography MB was easier than it should have been...they do remember toilets. And if the camp next door has them, you'd better have them, too. It's not about what the Staff or BSA thinks is important...it's about what the CUSTOMERS think is important. That's why our camp is on a steady decline...the old-timers have refused to listen to the customers...if it was good enough for us in 1966, it should be good enough now. NOT!" Again, I put this malice aforethought in I&P, that we might have some freer expression than in Open Discussion, Program. Billy is a Tenderfoot, age 11. He wants an air-conditioned dining hall, good food, and lollies/kybos/s%%%%ers that don't stink. The Billys and Joeys (12) and Bobbies (13) and Johnnies (14) and Davids (15) help pay their way to camp, some in more amounts than others. Billy's Mom and Dad want him to come home having learned something, having been challenged, having grown. Mom and Dad have the duty to provide for the best interests of their child. Which is more important? The quality of the staff and the program facilities (COPE and Climbing courses in great shape, good weapons at the ranges, a Nature director who teaches in a local JuCo during the school year, but helps the youth staff really get into the MB work for the kids during camp... OR "...they do remember toilets." To me, one of the SM's key program tasks is to guide the SPL and PLC away from the ephemeral and to the solid. My Eagle son turned 18 this summer. He's a tubist in the band, he's interested in hard sciences. Beyond Scout Camp, I've sent him to a band camp and a science camp. Want to know something? I didn't make my selections on: - Lowest price. - Best facilities. I made my selections on what gave me the best bang for the buck. I wanted great teachers, good learning tools, and a great environment. I passed on camps with "all the bells and whistles" because they didn't add value to his education. The PLC has a vote, but if the decision is A/C and flushers over quality program, someone is being ridden roughshod, and his name is Mr Scoutmaster and Mister Committee Chairman.

When I staffed District Day Camp a few years back, there was a youngster who seemed out of place. I reported my concerns to the Program Director and let her deal with it. Turned out Mom and Dad decided that Day Camp was a good time to pack off the kids, so they snuck darling daughter in. Registered her as a boy, and so on. To Pack 378: If you see something out of the ordinary, your duty begins and ends with reporting the matter to event staff, ideally one of the Key 3 (Director, PD, professional staff adviser). Their job is to deal with someone trying to bend the rules.

To the question of BSA publications: I really like the idea of pdfing most everything. Then, the Scout can print out what he needs. To the issue of getting youth to the point where they want to do a MB: Most MB's have one or more DO elements (in other words, go and DO SOMETHING) in them. Let's look at the themes of the 2007-8 program year and see if we can x-walk some MBs to program: Month, Theme, MB(s) 2007 August, Fishing, Fishing, Fish & Wildlife Management September, Athletics, Swimming, Cycling, Personal Fitness, Canoeing October, Science, Chemistry, Insect Study, Mamal Study, Nuclear Science, Plant Science November, Cooking, Cooking December, Wilderness Survival, Wilderness Survival, Backpacking, Hiking 2008 January, Communications, Communications February, Pioneering, Pioneering March, Environment, Environmental Science, Oceanography, Weather April, Orienteering, Orienteering, Backpacking, Hiking, Cycling May, Mechanics, Auto Mechanics, Metalwork, Woodworking June Hiking, Hiking, Backpacking, July Shooting, Rifle Shooting, Shotgun Shooting, Archery August, Sports (see last August...) If unit leaders encourage SPL and PLC to just follow the National program, there are opportunities to DO something which may get a young man interested in exploring a MB!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Old MB books may have viable and accurate material. The issue is their requirements are not current. The key word is MAY. I'd have an MB counselor for each badge tell you whether to keep the book, or put it up as a collectible on eBay. Neither add to nor subtract from. Why would you have the Scout read the book in advance? It seems to me a better method would be to present the young man with the "DO" requirement from a merit badge he's tentatively interested in, and have him DO it. Then, he's got at least some investment. Then, you can hand him off to a Counselor. I'd look at the US-Scouts webpages on merit badges, many of them have links to good info and things to do. Best way to encourage new MBs as a SM is to use SM minutes on an Eagle Scout who became a doc, a mechanic, a farmer, a airplane structural engineer working in composites, and so on.

Gonzo, Did you mean to say "attackers continue to be"... Even if we get women jihadists, the profile is still people of Middle Eastern descent 17-40...