John-in-KC

I live near a military installation. Kids arrive pretty typically in the summer. Their Scout handbooks are more than occasionally in their hold baggage, particularly if they're coming from overseas service. When I was advancement coord, I emailed the old unit. They'd send me what they had of his data from Troopmaster. I posted it, he was on his way until his book caught up with him. It's a source. Normally, it's the primary source. Good units have redundancy in recordkeeping. Better units have both youth-performed and adult-performed redundancy. And yes, if the Advancement Report doesn't get to Council, as far as the National Council is concerned, the advancement never happened. The job's not done til the paperworks' complete, but that's our responsibility, not the youth program members.

The only official record of a scout's progress and avancement is his handbook. EXCUSE ME???? The only official record of a Scouts advancement is ScoutNet. If your unit has not gotten information to the Council and the National database, the event never happened. The Boy Scout Handbook is no more and no less than a primary source document. PERIOD If your unit has a good Scribe and a good Advancement Coordinator, there are at least two internal secondary sources of information: The Advancement Wall Chart and your unit internal database (Troopmaster). BTW, the 3 signatures that matter on a BOR go on the Advancement Report to Council.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Good morning, Ms Summer, Please do keep us informed of how things happen in the coming days.

Horizon, Wrong answer. The handbook is a primary source document, but units with good scribes and good Advancement Coordinators post updates to Advancement wall charts and software packages. This is not a reason to hold back a BOR. Sheesh.

ONCE A QUARTER??? WHAT A CROCK OF EXCREMENT THAT STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!! We adults are here to serve the youth. Let's do our jobs. When I was a CC, the Scout would ask me or the Advancement Coordinator for a BOR. Most of the time, we planned to make them happen 1 week later. Units that have quarterly BORs for advancement are not supporting their youth.

I can say these sentences in eight words: Beavah's post nailed the question. Use his words.

Ms Summer, There are now two events and four consequences: - Your sons' Scoutmaster denied your son: -- An Eagle Scoutmaster Conference and -- his endorsement of your sons' candidacy for Eagle by refusing to sign his Eagle Scout Application. - Your sons' Troop Committee denied your son: -- An Eagle Board of Review over the objection of the Scoutmaster. -- An endorsement by the Committee Chairman of his Eagle Scout Application. All four of these are covered in ACP&P. The two that really matter are the denials of endorsement by signing the Eagle Scout application. What have you heard from the District Advancement Chair?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

mdsummer... If my scribblings make sense, he's welcome to borrow them as he wishes. I think the ideas behind them might be better than my poor henscratches I have to agree with Beavah. Let him keep track of himself. Lord willing, he'll learn from his brothers' walk on the trail Keep open eyes and open ears on *your* part, though.

Good almost afternoon. 1145pm at night? Says much imo. Son #2 needs to understand the animus coming against his brother may well be played out on him ... I don't think your son needs to say much, especially the last clause. His entire basis of appeal is the SM and Committee refuse to endorse his application for Eagle before the EBOR. He's appealing that decision, he is requesting an EBOR if the appeal is favorable, and he is asking for such extension of time as may be needed for the District appeal to get to the point of granting him a 3d party SM conference, if that be their decision. His statement should be something like: - I've met the responsibilities of performing the requirements, and have gone a bit beyond (cite). - I've worked hard outside the Troop to make the Scout Oath and Law a part of who I am. My references will share with you the young man they have seen in recent years. - I have completed my Eagle Leadership Service Project with the thanks of my supported (chruch, school, whatever), agency and the approval of my Scoutmaster and Committee. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would ask your son to call the District Advancement Chair today and ask for a time they can visit in the next day or two, and that the purpose of the visit is to appeal a Troop decision to endorse his Eagle application and convene an Eagle BOR. Make sure you write your short business letter as well... We endorse our sons' decision to appeal his denial of an Eagle BOR by the SM and Committee of Troop 123, chartered by XYZ Institution of Wherever, State.

Rick (as in ghermanno)... Like Beavah said, do look at the first 14 pages of ACP&P (especially pp 9-14, which apply to your operating committee). You have several roles, but educating unit serving leaders, and especially direct contact leaders is clearly one of your roles Just remember: Your responsibility is to Cubbing, Boy Scouting, and Venturing.

First, I trust the young man asked you to be one of his references in advance. I trust you agreed because he's a good young man, a credit to his school and community If those are the case, simply share the young man you know. Help his Eagle Board get to know him by you sharing about him Now, if the young man is a bit dubious, or he surprised you with this showing up in your mailbox, I might call him and have a talk with him. If there's anything he doesn't want you to reveal... well, he might have asked the wrong fellow, and it's courteous to give him a chance to back out. Whatever you do, the reference does not go back to him... send it wherever he, his Scoutmaster, or the Council told you to. I wish him well.

Indeed, have a talk with the Pastor and the parish President. Take a look at the link Beavah provided you. Take a look, yourself, at this package: http://www.scouting.org/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR.aspx Share the joy and the work of the Chartered Partner, per its license/franchise/charter agreement with the local Council: http://www.bsa-grc.org/recharter/Annual%20Charter%20Agreement.pdf Be prepared to be asked to serve A good chartered partner relationship is one of those things that make Scouting work. Scouting as a program package to raise up youth works pretty darn well when the moving parts all work together

I was a Boy Scout from early 1968 until 1972, then an Explorer until I went to college in fall of 1974. I had a tremendous amount of fun, and a tremendous amount of outdoor time. Even so, I got only about 12 merit badges. I was the second young man I know of to make Life Scout in my Troop in a while. Most stopped advancing at Star, and had fun there. I was also the first Scout I know of in my Troop to go for my Brotherhood in OA. Here are the major differences I see between the program then and now: 1) Star. When I was a Scout, I had to earn 1 Eagle Required MB of the 5 it took to make Star. The magic number now is 4 Eagle of 6 to make Star. 2) Life. Again, in the early 70s, it was 5 of 10. Now, it's 7 of 11. Do you see the difference? The youth is on the backslope of his requirements, just by the organization of the advancement system. 3) Eagle was rarer in those days. There were fewer people who knew the trail, both youth and adults. It was tougher because it wasn't well blazed. 4) OK, it's "pet rock" time. COOKING MB. I'm so glad it was required. I can bake, roast, make a casserole, turn out a decent piece of meat off the broiler, and balance the food groups. I will wish that BSA restores Cooking to the Eagle list until they do, or until I draw my dying breath. No, I'm not "Life for Life." The only Boy Scout rank which translates to adulthood is Eagle. I was a Boy Scout. As a youth member, I completed my participation at the rank of Life. Now, I'm a Scouter.

I dibs this one: Brother Hand Grenade of Sweet Reason

Right or wrong... What do you perceive Billy's parents expect when Billy comes home from Scout Camp? - Fun - Growth - New skills ??? OR - A bunch of MB cards signed off? OR ??? I'm in listen mode. TIA for your replies

There is one other option; it goes back to when I was a youth. Summer Camps are not there to close out the task and get the youth to an MB award. They are there to provide the teaching and the wilderness classroom support. The MB Counselor in town does the final testing and sign-off. Of course, that was 40 years ago, and I suspect at $$$ for a week of camp, parents want results. Thinking about this some more: EagleSon staffs our Cub Family Resident Overnight Camp (Bear Camp). Yes, he and his fellow young adults work hard to do their share of the work. They help Cubs/Partners with tool boxes, on the ranges, at the waterpark and all that... but they don't sign off requirements. The unit leaders are given a list of requirements the youth got exposure to. Akela, be it DL or Mom/Dad, get the sign-off responsibility. Maybe we do re-align what we do in camps?

Mafaking: I trust you have read ACP&P #33088 recently. Councils, Districts, and units under charter do not have the authority to add to or subtract from the requirements. Period. Mr Scoutmaster is off the reservation, based on Rick's report.. Rick is there to help as a District Scouter, he can and should educate direct contact leaders and committee folk to the very best of his Operating Committee's ability. Then, he has to (sadly) wait for a bad thing to happen. It sounds like they will, though (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Ms Summer, Yes, we did post on top of each other. I hope you have copies of the Eagle app and the Goals and Ambitions. I wish I could trust this set of leaders; at this remove, though, my antennae are twitching. Your son has done his lifting for now. You can wait a very brief time, like until Monday. If you do not have a decision at that point, then you have a decision to make: - Do you wait on Mr CC and the Committee? - Do you write him a short business note: Dear Mr CC, I regret your personal situation. If you cannot delegate or refer this matter, then I ask you to cut to the chase and eiterh simply approve or deny advancement. That way, we can initiate appeal procedures with the District Advancement Chairman. Should you simply be silent, I will ask the District Advancement Chair and District Director for their professional interpretation of your silence. I am prepared to initiate a written appeal to the District on behalf of my son. - Do you not only write that note, but complain on the record to the Chartered Partner, through the Chartered Organization Representative. Your issue would be the CC's lack of reporting matters that impact his ability to run his unit. - Do you let your son make the statement of "I appeal." As far as facebook goes, time for a quiet teaching point with your son ... and then let it go. The last perfect man I know who walked this earth was Jesus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ETA: I like Neil's idea of thank you's by your son. As far as CC's mom, CC's can delegate, and they can ask their COR to cover. Either is appropriate. Indeed, given his personal situation, the right thing he should have done was delegate or cover before this meeting. I just spent a month out of position on eldercare. I released my volunteer duties back to appropriate folk, so the mission could be accomplished even as I dealt with other things. Two years ago, when I was a COR, I had to surrender my position to my IH because I was out of town for an extended period during a period where the COR needed to be "boots on the ground." I DO NOT give Mr CC a pass, for those reasons. Sigh. I agree about preserving the option of appeal. NOTE: I have further edited the formal response to the CC.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Good morning Ms Summer? News, good, bad, ugly, or indifferent?

A lot of times, strike the dark, after dinner, the kids are tired. I've seen them in the autumnal months want to sit close, stay warm, roast marshmallows and tell ghost stories.

Rick, Use all your resources. Sound like WB? Figure out your vision, figure out your goals. Visit with and get buy-in from the Key 3. If they're not going to have your back, give the job back! Ask to come to a District Commish meeting. Describe the reality on the ground. Ask for their help, ask for their stories of advancement gone awry. Educate your COR's and IH's. Work on training them about the Advancement Method. Make sure if they get complaints about advancement from parents, they contact you. Educate your Scoutmasters. Ask for a minute every month at RT opening. Pick something from advancement policy, and lay it out "This is National procedure, and it's the standard I shall maintain." Use your District Publicity Chairman. Get stuff in the monthly newsletter and the Council newsletter. You will have to decide how far you take things, but make sure at all points that the Key 3 have your back. Keep us in the loop; ask questions when you need to. We should be able to keep your back

nolesrule laid out something on the table in the faith threads, and I think it's worth seeing how you young Arrowmen will deal with it. Your larger city urban/suburban Council has five Orthodox Jewish Synagogues with Troops under charter. Troop membership in each is about 65 (~330 total rostered). Annually, these Troops throughput about 40 Ordeal Candidates. They cannot do work from sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday, owing to the Sabbath. They live under Kosher lifestyle: There cannot eat pork. How does your Council/Lodge accommodate their Ordeal and their Brotherhood?

Thank you for honoring your own faith, nolesrule. One important note: Yes, I'm passionate about faith. I'm equally passionate about the Outdoors Method. Our program isn't weekly Troop meetings. It's getting the youth to have fun and be self-reliant folk, using all the tools a wilderness life classroom has to offer. Get the youth out in the field. Let the families and the churches/synagogues take care of faith. When there is a District/Council event, look at the needs of the audience. My only direct comment to you, nolesrule, is if the Council Relationships Committee is not meeting the needs of Jewish (any group) of Scouts, then a short note saying "I am scandalized" and laying the matter out is in order. In the case of the Lodge, a cc of that note to the Staff Adviser, the Adviser, and the youth Chief would be in order as well. Let them know they are not meeting their obligations. I know it'd be tough to plan an observant Ordeal... but golly gee, I think during the week at Scout Camp comes to mind...

If the CC was concerned about the actions of the SM, he should have had long, offsite, heart to heart talks with the SM. If that did not work, CC should have gone to the COR, not backstabbed his SM by complaining to the ASMs. COR is the right guy to give formal guidance to the SM, admonish the SM, or remove the SM. Period. I'm getting the feeling this Troop is on Peyton Place. I won't be visiting this thread again.

"or we haven't set up the requirements for the lower ranks to give the lad the experience and preparation he needs. " That's part of it right there. There's not a single do paperwork requirement beyond a MB app or something for a counselor inside a MB, until the Scout encounters his ELSP. Then... watch out, because like Stosh said, it's good to know 6-Sigma if you're going to get a project past the SM, Committee, benefitted agency, and the District Advancement bubbas.