Stosh

OGE, I'm thinking that there are a few on the forum who think I'm over avid about such issues, maybe even anal. But I don't care as much about what people think as I do about what people do. I spend a lot of time building what I call esprit-de-corps (same as Scout Spirit) amongst my boys. If I take it seriously, then they do too and reflect it back to others. I have seen PL's take the flag from one boy and give it to another because he was not in "full uniform". Does that reflect my opinion I have towards the flag or has he adopted it as well. I have seen/heard PL's getting their boys ready for flags at the opening of the meeting doing uniform inspections so that all buttons are buttoned, neckers all under/over the collar, shirts tucked in and not bloused, etc. That Scout Spirit is infectious and the boys pick up on it. My boys showed up for flags on the evening of the first day of a new summer camp after having set up tents, flies, stoves, etc. and worked all afternoon, in full uniform. They all looked the same, all uniformed and with walking staves. The troop flag and both patrol flags were present. Everyone else was in "class-b's". Only the staff and my boys were, in my opinion, ready for the flag retirement. After the ceremony, they were "mobbed" by the staff wanting to know more about us. We were the only out-of-council troop that week and we stood out like a "sore thumb". The boys soaked up the accolades like sponges. As the week progressed, more and more troops showed up in at least their uniform shirts. No other troop had full uniforms. Well, when we went back the second year, we weren't the only troop in full uniform for flags. Scout Spirit is contagious! When it comes to flags, no one in my troop ever took short-cuts, and none of the boys ever cared about what others thought. Only what they thought about flag/uniform respect counted. Yes, respect for the flag and uniform does go hand-in-hand. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

The US Flag Code is for civilians and if one ever has a copy of it produced appropriately by a good source, the illustrations show the flags tilted forward when carried. To "dip" the flag is not to carry it tilted, it is to intentionally tip from vertical and back to show some sort of honor being offered. In the US, everyone is equal and the flag gets dipped to no one, not even the president. Displayed on a wall with another flag, i.e. state flag, both flags are presented with cross staffs tilted one in each direction. The US flag on the left and the staff on top of the other flag. Most people have never read the US Flag Code or any of it's evolutions over the years. It might do well to find out what IS written in it and what IS NOT written in it. I cringe every time I see the Troop coming down the street on Memorial Day. 3 flags in a line. The US Flag, the state flag and the troop flag, the US Flag on the right... The US Flag Code states if there are three flags, the US Flag goes out in front by itself and the other flags in a second row. As I read posts such as these it always amazes me how much people know and don't know about the Code. The problem is not availability, it's on-line, the problem is people don't respect it enough to actually read what's there. Stosh

At camps where there is a commissary instead of the mess hall, time is a factor that is taken into account by the camp. The meals are thoughtfully planned out in terms of nutrition and prep time. As a learning experience, the patrols can in fact keep notes of what summer camp provided and keep the recipes and prep time issues in a note book for the next time they plan for a non-summer camp outing. The whole week of summer camp, I saw no pop-tarts on the menu. They did have hot dogs, brought out to the sites by camp staff because the boys were busy setting up their tents and dining flies having arrived at the camp earlier in the day. On the other hand, it's the only camp where steak was on the menu for the boys and not just at the appreciation luncheon for the SM's. As a time issue. The commissary camp offered 6 MB sessions whereas the mess hall camps offered only 5. The commissary camp had 2 camp-wide events, lots of open boating/swimming and even other activities not offered by the other camps. I have attended at least 5 different summer camps, and depending on the quality of camp program they don't vary all that much. My boys never saw the commissary camp as a negative because of it's emphasis on the patrol method and high MB count AND camp-wide activities. Stosh

What if it's Oliver's fault that food is not there? When one has the opportunity to provide for themselves, but feels it is okay to then beg off of others, then there's something wrong with the program. The boys in the T-FC process are taught to provide for themselves. If they don't learn this process but go through the motion of getting their book marked, then there's a legitimate reason to scold the SM. But once a boy gets to FC, theoretically he should be able to fend for himself and doesn't need to go begging. Stosh

I do the same as 5yearScouter. Stosh

Why does HA automatically translate into large $$'s???? I took boys to BWCA for a week at a cost less than 5 1/2 days of summer camp. A bike hike of 200-300 miles shouldn't cost much either. Backpacking in a national forest shouldn't cost much. 5-6 days on Appalachian Trail shouldn't cost more than a week at camp either. Travel is the only unknown on any HA and one doesn't need to go that far to find plenty of adventure for the boys that they can't get on a weekend camporee or week at summer camp. Any HA trip that requires big bucks is going to turn off a lot of boys. Heck, we got people complaining about the cost of a pair of uniform pants. Knock off the $750 "program registration" on most BSA National HA bases and that will completely outfit a kid with new backpack, equipment, hiking boots and uniform with pants. In the 7 years of a scout's career one maybe two National HA's should be fine, but local HA should be scheduled every year especially for the older boys who really aren't looking forward to their 5th trip to the council summer camp. Stosh

I had a situation where a troop had never gone on a HA and didn't know how to put one together. My troop worked with them and both troops went together. BWCA - 2 permits, 6 canoes. During the day's paddle the canoes shuffled so that by the time the week was up, everyone had a chance to camp with everyone else. Worked out great and the other troop was then inspired to take on more trips on their own. Stosh

I attended an ECOH this past weekend and wore the old green necktie with the beads. Stosh

The time constraint is always a problem, but can be worked out. Summer camps with mess halls have the advantage over those with patrol method in-site cooking..... Well, maybe not. I have taken boys to both types of camps and the boys at mess hall camps have extra time to goof off and hang out. The patrol method cooking produces more productive time for the boys, honing their cooking skills. As far as camp programming is concerned, there was no difference between both types of camp, but the boys actually preferred the patrol camp-site cooking over the mess hall camps. There is a technique to time savings when it comes to cooking. The boys would do well to learn this as well. I taught Webelos outdoor training with one other person. At 10:30 am, we began our tag-team food prep process. While I was teaching he was prepping. We'd switch and he'd do a session and I'd pick up where he left off, etc. At 12:00 noon, everyone was invited to get their mess kits and get in line for the buffet. Much to everyone's surprise there was no third person who had come in to do the food prep. If adults were going to take cubs into the outdoors they would need to be able to duplicate this process. While we ate, they learned how to do this, tag teaming their cubs while doing the necessary camp chores. On the Boy Scout level, the boys can do this as well. But! Big one here! They are going to need to learn teamwork and planning to pull it off so everyone benefits with good food and no one person getting stuck at missing out on something. Two boys get up at the same time in the morning. One's duty is to clean up his tent and get ready for the day. Ever notice that that's never on the duty roster? At the same time scout 2 is getting the fire ready. Tag! Scout 2 goes and cleans up his tent, Scout 1 preps bfast. Tag, Scout 2 sets up dining area and Scout 1 goes back to camp duties, such as water, more firewood, etc. Tag, etc. etc. Too often the Duty Roster is designed to dump on individuals rather than building teamwork and cooperation in completing processes. The only time my troop used duty rosters is to keep the boys from fighting over who got to cook and clean up. Cooking was fun, clean up was the easiest, fire prep was way too much fun, etc. Stosh

Scouts eye-balling adult food???? This is a bad idea? Most of the time eye-balling is a good idea. That's how others learn. Lead by example. If others aren't eye-balling, then no one is following. My boys decided to have the traditional foil dinners. Knowing this, I brought two extra small containers. One with flour the other a mixture of butter/brown sugar. They made their foil dinners and took off to play around while they cooked. I took the potatoes and carrots boiled them in my mess kit boiler. Made a patty with the hamburger and added the onions in to saute in the mess kit pan. Near the end of cooking the burger, added some water and flour and made gravy. Then I picked out the carrots from the potatoes and put in the mess kit cup and added butter and brown sugar as a glaze. Mashed the potatoes, put on the gravy put everything nicely in the mess kit cover and had a nice dinner. What didn't burn was picked out of crumpled foil and eaten by the boys. Was my meal eye-balled? Of course, and the boys all quickly learned that a mess kit was more useful than a plastic spoon and fizbee when it came to meal time. A little extra time and effort can turn even the simplest of meals into something rather nice. T-FC learn how to make and deal with the basics. Star->Eagle are the boys that are challenged to take it to the next level. Anything an adult can do in a mess kit, the boys can duplicate in a dutch oven for the patrol. I'm not much when it comes to creativity, but I have learned by eye-balling others, I can make things a whole lot nicer for myself along the way. There's a whole magazine industry out there dedicated to food and food prep. There are also tons of photographs to eye-ball, too! You look at the pictures, see what looks good and THEN look at the recipe! Stosh

Great idea. 50 years ago this was the norm for a lot of troops that used the patrol method. However, now it is forbidden unless adults go along. My SM discouraged it for whatever reason, but we went anyway. We played the parent trump card and left the uniforms at home. The minor hesitancy in your initial comment was the scouts were 2C -> Life. I would prefer to have all the boys fully trained at FC. And I mean fully trained, not book "check marked". Stosh

Because of dietary restrictions, I never ate with the boys. Dietary restrictions? Yeah, my stomach told me to stay away from the diet of a young teenager. Bacon, potatoes, eggs, and other heavy greasy stuff before going kayaking didn't work well. Greasy bacon cheese burgers and chips just before bed time was another no-no. Poptarts didn't last me until noon on most days. Eventually, the boys after seeing what I was eating, began to ask for recipes. Why is it that after a patrol is all at FC, do the nutritional "requirements" of a balanced meal go out the window? What always amazed the boys was with a well thought out menu, I could always prep, cook, eat and clean up before the boys were serving themselves these outlandish meals. Imagine the total amazement of the boys when 4 days into a BWCA canoe trip, they were eating MRE's and I was feasting on a real ice cream sundae. (with whipped cream and cherry on top) Don't work harder, work smarter, this is why we have T-FC training. Stosh

I'm on Ubuntu Linux using Firefox and have no problems. Stosh

When my boys planned out their own summer camp activity, they would always sit around the picnic table at the end of the week and make the decision whether to come back next year or find a new camp. If they decided to return, when they went up to check out, they would sign up for next year. If they didn't have a good experience and they wanted a different camp, the boy would start checking out new camps and sign up asap. For campgrounds that didn't have a reservation system, the boys would always plan a backup site as they preped for the outing. I remember getting up to one place that they found a place to camp which was in fact their 4th choice. Worked out just fine. Depth of planning is as important as making reservations. The boys usually needed a headstart on programs 4-6 months in advance. The planning was done by a single boy that would "take lead" on the project and it was left entirely up to him to pull it together. If he needed help, it was always available, but seldom asked for. With ownership of the outing in the hands of the boys, seldom did we have problems. I don't think any two boys ever did it the same, but it all seemed to work out just fine. Stosh

Eagle92, I too am an old fogey that like you feels it has a lot to do with pride. Yes, cost is an issue as it is with any activity people are involved with, It's an issue, maybe even a problem, but it should never be an excuse. Issues and problems can be dealt with, excuses cannot. Until a boy can afford a uniform, he wears blue jeans and maybe a BSA t-shirt. Not a problem. No unit in the program is going to say he has a uniform on, however. But put on just a BSA shirt and now the majority say, that's a uniform and now you're okay. Half-uniforms are not uniforms. From Tigers on up, the message given to the boys is shirt-only is okay and "substitutes" as a uniform. Go to any scout activity and the vast majority of scouts are a hodgepoge of "uniforms" and this passes off as scout pride? When I was a SM all my boys were in full-uniform and they were the only troop in the council to do so. They were the only troop that showed up for all meals, flags, and campfires in full uniform. The only others around who wore full uniforms were a few adults, usually old fogeys like me. Where is the scout pride when the Eagle candidates have to hunt around all over to come up with a full uniform? Is the begrudging trip to the scout shop to buy a pair of pants really scout pride? And as one final caveat, what is the message on pride and honesty when adult leaders say shirt-only is acceptable as a full uniform? I still remember as an ASM listening to the SM tell the boys on inspection night that it was okay to not have scout pants, but the pants had to have belt loops. If one is not wearing a BSA uniform, at least be honest about it and don't suggest to the public or even other scouters that cutting corners is acceptable to the program. Yes there are boys and their families that just can't afford the uniform. The boy shows up wearing a BSA Camp t-shirt and blue jeans to the meeting. The only reason he has the t-shirt is because the money the family scrimped up to treat him with spending money at camp all went for the t-shirt. He wears it at every scout activity, and for flags, out of respect for the fact that it's not the official uniform places his hand over his heart. The uniform does not make the man. I'd take a whole troop of boys like this and if I have to buy them all uniforms out of my own pocket, I wouldn't hesitate one iota. Stosh

Cost is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. My Venturing Crew people would spend up well over $1000-$1300 to get outfitted. No one went on the field with half a uniform. I recently picked up a former reenactor's gear and put together a complete kit for an infantry soldier. I put a price tag of $1,000 on it and had it sold before I could box it up to sell. Sports uniforms cost more than BSA uniforms. And the $12 you spend on a dress shirt at Walmart for church is also the same price as a camp t-shirt. And when all else fails, I have picked up uniform pants on E-bay for as little as $5-$10 and shirts about the same, maybe a bit more because of the demand for them. I guess it just bothers me that I hear more excuses to NOT wear the uniform than I do TO wear the uniform. Stosh

Why not let the boys decide on their own patrols? If they want to hang out for 7 years, so be it. If one boy has a falling out with his patrol, he can jump to one where he gets along. I don't see this issue having any adults involved at all. Stosh

If a Tiger Cub doesn't have pride in a full-uniform when he goes off to a den meeting, by the time he's 18 going for his ECOH, things won't have changed much. Cut enough corners often enough and it's going to be perfectly acceptable for an Eagle candidate to show up for his ECOH wearing blue jeans and a camp t-shirt. After all, a uniform is not a required part of the program. Stosh

When confronted with a hot topic where the truth is going to hurt someone, I always ask whether they want the truth or not. Or I'll just say, truthfully, that I don't want to answer that. There is no good reason not to be truthful. Or put differently, there's no good reason to lie. My wife made a new dish last night that was really bad. I truthfully told her to not freeze the leftovers, but put them way in the back of the refrigerator and we can have them again in six months. I lucked out on this because she had the same idea. Had I not been truthful we'd both suffer through the leftovers. Yes, one can get in trouble for telling the truth - sometimes. One can ALWAYS get in trouble for not telling the truth. I like to keep my odds reasonable. Stosh

OGE, I wouldn't say there's always a different explanation to any situation. But it does concern me that the point I was trying to make often gets left on the back burner. Yes, a new uniform for the Eagle especially if he's planning on going on into the scouter ranks is always a good idea. However, to think that spit and polish must be maintained by the scout uniform is also misjudged many times. My boys wore the heck out of their uniforms, they'd come back from summer camp with a whole new set of stains and mom would spend hours patching up the rips and tears. It indicates to me, no disrespect for the uniform, just something the boy is at least willing to wear as necessary to being a scout. There's a lot of SM's out there trying to get their boys to not even wear their uniforms for fear something terrible is going to happen to them. Yeah, it's called being out in the woods wearing them. It's part of the program. Like the mom who constantly complained to the coach that her boy would always come home from a football game with his uniform filthy with dirt and grass stains. What? She prefer her boy sitting on the bench keeping his uniform clean? The money kids spend on blue jeans is very comparable to scout pants, but no one wants them. A durable shirt from any good sporting goods store is going to cost pretty much what a new uniform shirt costs. Well the patches can be taken off and put on a new shirt, the belt doesn't wear out nor do the socks very often. Necker, hat, all don't need replacing unless lost. I hear too often the over concern that the uniform is for special occasions only. Well, that to me isn't sufficient justification for not wearing a BSA uniform at a BSA event. If one goes back to my post, I did not refer to the Eagle candidate showing up in a disheveled uniform, I said, "clean, ironed, and patched the best it could be". That speaks to me an equal level of pride as the scout wanting to give a good impression with a new uniform, if not a bit more, granting an edge to the elbow grease necessary for the occasion. By the way, I don't take offense at contradictory comments to mine. In this case, your comments are equally valid. No bashing was intended to the motives of any Eagle candidate. What works in your troop may not work in mine and vice-versa. Forum listeners should be exposed to both so they can best decide what will work for their troops. Stosh

Maybe it's a bit sterotyping, or maybe just all out bigotry, but the Eagle Scout candidate that shows up in a full BSA uniform that has the patches a bit eschewed, a few too many stains, frayed cuff and collar, worn a bit too much at the knees, but is clean, ironed and patched the best it could be verses the Eagle Scout that shows up with a spotless, exact patches properly placed, and no wear whatsoever, speaks to me differently. Like a well-worn hat, that has lost its luster, a bit rag tagged, stained and misshaped, it tells me about the history of the person wearing it. My expedition hat has a 2000 Philmont brand under the brim and right next to it the 2010 National Jamboree brand. It's in fairly good shape, but has burn spots from a hundred logs tossed carelessly into the campfire by my boys, it is stained and it only vaguely remembers it's original shape. The color on the top of the hat does not match the color under the brim. Put it next to a new one at the scout shop and one would never guess it once looked the same. Scouts are usually in the program for 7 years and have no idea when they are done with the youth part of the program what a uniform looks like after being a leader for 30+ years. I wear my camp knife on the old traditional belt clip because I don't have a pocket I trust to keep it securely anymore. No, I don't wear that uniform for official meetings and/or training, but when I'm with the boys in the field, it's there. My boys never saw me at a scout function without the full uniform and many of them remember the day when I hit the drink in a canoe spill in the rapids. It was a hot day, but hey, I got my uniform washed and it kept me cool for the rest of the day while it wick dried. Yes, I have a "full uniform" and an "activity uniform". They look remarkably the same but my full uniform has all the patches and pins, necker, woggle, name tag, etc. etc. etc., but my activity uniform has only the basics along with some mendings, frays, and stains. Stosh

Leadership is sometimes based on attention to detail, a real concern when it comes to the final report he's going to need to produce in the end. Good lesson to learn upfront, save him a lot of headache later on. I have always learned the most from the hard-nosed teachers I had as I was growing up. Not much fun at the time, but it served me well in the years following. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

"Oh yeah, names in the lower hem of either shirt." This reminds me of the time we went to a way-out-of-state summer camp. The troop was full uniform all the time unless in the water swimming. Well, the uniforms were pretty rank by Wednesday so the SM collected them all up and ran them into town to run through the laundromat. When he came back he had all 30 uniforms. The kids were in a panic. First he sorted them by patrol patches, then POR's, then rank, then temp patches, then size. No two shirts were the same. It pays to keep up with the patches so that the boy can be properly identified as to patrol/POR/rank. The troop T-shirt under the uniform is standard operating procedure for that troop too. Stosh

Personally I have a camp kitchen that I carry in a moderately sized tote. Everything I need is in there and I just grab it and head out the door. All cooking except for dutch oven and stove is taken care of. Stosh

There is no such thing as being safe. Getting out of bed every morning is a risky business and it goes down hill all day long as one tires out. Every activity has inherent risk, safety is defined as to how well are those risks controlled, and whether the risk is manageable if the inevitable occurs. Which is more dangerous? Driving a boy to troop meetings or having him ride his bike? Maybe walking would be better, but only if he looks both ways before crossing the street. Adventure requires a certain degree of managed risk. Every time I get in my kayak I am taking the risk of drowning, so I wear my life-jacket and try to keep the dry side on top. Does that mean I don't go on moving water? Where's the adventure in that? All challenges require risk, is it controlled, manageable, ?????? I sit at work all day long risking ergonomic problems and damage to my eyes, while wondering how much damage my sedentary situation is doing. As I do so I constantly am planning now to break out of this risky cubicle and get out on the white-water, poisonous plant infested trails and endure the environmental problems associated with bad weather. Basically I don't really want to be safe, I want to be exposed to risks I can control and have the skills to manage and maybe even push the envelop a bit, it's call adventure. When is too much safety unsafe? I hope to never find out. Stosh