Gonzo1

Hunt, Yes I put up with it, I'm actually glad we do it. here's how. We're on the battlefield, capture someone of interest who we believe has actual, credible information. If we then put that guy in a cell, turn off the lights and let him wait. Bring him a breakfast for example. Wait an our and bring him lunch. Tell him that 5 hours passed. Wait about 20 hours and bring him dinner. Tell him that 5 hours passed. Use bright lights, loud music, sensory overload or deprivation. I'm OK with that. Why? BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KILL HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND WE DIDN'T CHOP OFF HIS HEAD. The guy is still alive. At some point, he'll be able to practice his religion, customs, etc. He gets to live. One way we get beat this "torture" thing is to kill them all on the battlefield, you know, take no prisoners. Would that be better? G

Ed, as usual, makes a good point. Vote for the candidate of your choice. Gern makes a good point Ed. Congress is pretty much party driven. So, for 'agenda' items, gotta pay attention to party. Lisa, I'm sorry, but Clinton, Albright, Obama, Feingold? C'mon, Clinton got impeached and the ONLY thing that kept him from being removed from office was a spineless Trent Lott. Sure, with Clinton, the economy was good, but it's good now. Unemployment is at all time lows. In other words, employment is at all time highs. Sure, there's a deficit now, there will always be deficits, even during the Clinton years. Albright never had a clue and continues to not have a clue. Here's the only thing democrats will do for you: They make you 'feel good'. As for McCain and Lugar, they're pretty RINO's, Powell really never declared if he was R or D really. He did sell a lot of books. I think he later said he would be a republican who supported welfare, affirmative action, blah blah blah. Sorry, I don't know Warner or Spitzer, so I can't comment. I even agree with Packsaddle.... to the extent that negative campaigning ON BOTH SIDES is bad.

Well done everybody!...... Polite disagreement. Calico knows the drill, ...... 'early and often' and remember everyone, the dead have as much right to vote as the next guy. Republicans vote on Tuesday, Nov. 7 and democrats vote on Wednesday. Good day. (This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

You guys know by now that I'm a veteran. I gotta tell you, I'm opposed to real torture. You know, bamboo shoots under the finger nails, brutalizing people, uh, chopping off their heads, and dragging them through the streets, oh, wait a minute, the enemy has done those things to our guys. We feed and clothe our prisoners, allow them to practice their religion, etc. Sure, the worst of the worst may not get the red carpet treatment. I am however for extracting information that will save Americans lives. I think it should be OK to tinker with the clock, make some one think it's a different time of day. Play loud Barry Manilow music, rock music, light or sound deprivation, etc. Even scare tactics with dogs. I'm opposed to turning the dogs loose on the enemy. Even the waterboard should be allowed. Having said that, let me tell you that I had to attend (and survive) the Navy's POW simulation school, Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape. I didn't get water boarded, but I know guys who did. I got crammed into a little box, got roughed up, and I lived to tell about it. The enemy being held at Guantanamo is now complaining because they are getting FAT! And, we're supposed to give them LAWYERS???!!! Give me a break. Here's how to connect the dots: Al Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and just about every other major DEMORCRAT elected official in Washington said that Saddam was a threat to the United States. Saddam gassed his own people (for which he is now on trial) and paid a death gratuity to surviving family members of the 9/11 hijackers. Saddam allowed and supported Al-Qaida terorroists to train in Iraq. If I heard correctly on ABC radio news, maybe I saw it in the paper, it has been confirmed that Iraq had a well developed nuclear program. Hmm, maybe he was a threat, you know, gas and nukes. Isn't better to conduct the war over there, instead of over here? By the way, Saddam was just CONVICTED of genocide. He'll probably hang. Vote and the choice is yours, don't vote, and the choice is mine. Republicans vote on Tuesday, democrats should vote on Wednesday. Do like they do in Chicago, vote early and often. As mayor Daly of Chicago said "Da dead got just as much right to vote as da next guy"

So we can all deliver a quality program with a focus on basic scout skills, what kinds of Mafeking type adventures does your troop do? We've done navigation, first aid, pioneering, etc. but what have you done? Thanks,(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

LisaBob with the usual wisdom. I didn't mean to suggest that the TG or SPL should always sign off advancement, but rather that they could show junior that some things had been earned and could be signed off. Thanks for enlightening me. jg

You could have the TG or SPL causually ask for his handbook and review it, quiz him and sign off some things that he's done. Be patient.

Think of any "secrecy" in OA as allowing for 'guided discovery'. They can't hurt you, you will however grow from the experience.

ex Fox, ozemu is right, Beavah is the man! Always has good advice. Ozemu does too. Have PL's provide input to newsletter, when next inspecton is, next patrol outing, whatever. SPL provides his comments, SM give some wise words. Mail it out. What's the cost? 39 cents each? ... C'mon. Develop your PLC, build and develop you Troop Committee. Good Luck

emb021, I agree! Besides, who can forget that some over achieving mom is going to have the claim of having the 'first female Eagle Scout', the first female to earn ____ merit badge or XX number of merit badges. Rather than admitting girls to Boy Scouts, perhaps GSUSA could have an outdoor program similar to Boy Scouts.

Congratulations to all of you!

I think you're working youself up into an unecessary frenzy. I'm trying to picture you driving by a school and getting all worked up. I'll give it to you AGAIN: Allow me to give you the First Ammendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Please see the part about 'nor prohibit the free exercise thereof' and the 'right of the people to peacably assemble' It seems that you got your collective noses out of joint because you really want what we have, but just can't have it. You know, if your atheism is the only thing holding you back (and I doubt that's the case), pigeon hole youself into some religion and join. But, I think it's deeper than that. I think you mentioned in another thread that you have a "partner" and we know what that means. Besides, that wouldn't be ethical, would it? Has your Scouting for All group tried to get your units chartered at schools? public organizations? If not, why not? I personally believe that since you can't have what we have, you don't want us to have it either. Like it or not, I'll pray for you. Edited part added: Actually, if schools had clubs that only allowed non-Methodists, I'd say "way to go!, good for them!" Much like when I see a Jewish Community Center. They are great places for people to go to, but I guess I'd have to be Jewish, I'm not. Do you know what? I'm not offended. I wouldn't be offended by the school having clubs for people based on gender either, like fraternities and sororities. How about clubs based on language? Can you join the Spanish Club? I can, I'm bilingual. (This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

Merlyn, It's funny you mention Glen Ellyn. I grew up there and I had to do a google search on the school. I had almost forgotten about it. Turns out it's a school for the deaf and blind and has enrollment of about TWENTY students. I don't know why "publicly funded orgainizations" can't charter scout units, I don't care. But, why do YOU care? Are you bothered that a school that houses children all day might actually have them for a few hours after school? ... I'd have to guess that it's because the BSA has the DRP and schools are government institutions. Then you'll make a claim about 'separation of church and state', right? Allow me to give you the First Ammendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. A "separation of Church and State" is not found anywhere in the Constitution. In other words, freedom of religion doesn't guarantee anyone freedom from religion. If you are upset by the sight of a cross, look away. Does the sight of people praying before eating bother you? look away. Do you drive by public schools on Tuesday nights at 7 pm and wonder if scouts are in there? So what! They are the same kids who were there earlier ar 2 pm It seems to me that atheism has almost become a religion in itself. Many atheists are so shackled to your cause that you can't let others live life without forcing us to kick God out of ours. I've been to many Scout meetings, outings, campouts, etc. For the life of me, I can't recall anyone ever being forced to pray a certain way, worship a certain way, I don't remember hearing anyone preaching, witnessing, testifying, or thumping. We have had non-demoninational worship services, brief ones. Usually led by scouts. I've never been offended at any of them I even attended a Catholic mass conduted by a priest, not bad for a Methodist.

Good comments above, something else to consider is posting an advancement chart on the wall. Some are motivated by seeing the progress of others. Require the scouts to bring handbooks to all meetings, outings, etc. Have PL's remind boys to bring handbook. Provide mentorship to SPL an TG to check for handbooks, then have them look at the advancement in the book. SPL sits down with a scout, TG with another and asks questions, scout demonstrates, TG/SPL sign off. Then, walk over to the chart and check it off. Everyone sees the progress on the chart........ it takes time.

Packwife, Lots of good news here. You and your son recognized a problem before it became a big problem. You sought help and got it. Support you son, it sounds like he'll be fine. Not all military officers are bad guys. I'm one, (just retired) and I think I'm a good guy. Being an officer doesn't mean yelling at people, he's probably around adults more than kids and needs what Beavah alluded to by coaching, we call it "hip pocket training", kinda like on the spot coaching, mentoring, gentle reminders. So now that your son has moved to another troop, why did I bring this up? Keep an eye out for the next SM. Observe meetings yourself, see what goes on without being in the way. Best wishes, Gonzo

Don't forget about The Lone Ranger, Bonanza, Ponderosa and Peticoat Junction. And what about Hee Haw.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the poncho liner! I love mine. for those who don't know, the military ponco has grommets all around and snaps too. You could snap many together for a rain fly or wind screen. You can buy the poncho and poncho liner at surplus stores, or Brigade Quartermaster, Ranger Joe's, etc. The liner has laces that line up with the grommets. Lay out the poncho, place the liner on top, tie it in, fold it over and snap the poncho closed. I've been warm and toasty in what Soldiers call the Field Expedient Sleeping Bag at 38 degrees, could probably be warm at colder temps. VERY LIGHT WEIGHT!!!!

Yeah, I forgot to mention the poncho liner! I love mine. for those who don't know, the military ponco has grommets all around and snaps too. You could snap many together for a rain fly or wind screen. You can buy the poncho and poncho liner at surplus stores, or Brigade Quartermast, Ranger Joe's, etc. The liner has laces that line up with the grommets. Lay out the poncho, place the liner on top, tie it in, fold it over and snap the poncho closed. I've been warm and toasty in what Soldiers call the Field Expedient Sleeping Bag at 38 degrees, could probably be warm at colder temps. VERY LIGHT WEIGHT!!!!

Welcome, Square knot award are shown at the link below: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/square-knots.asp Gonzo

Here'a an idea: Have WB the way it used to be. There are 8 patrols in WB, right? get some adult leaders from Venturing, Sea Scouts who may also want to attend WB. Have the Course Director (we called him Scoutmaster) and arbitrarily assign the non-boy scout folks to a separate patrol, like Venturers in Owl, Sea Scouts in Bear and when basic scout skills are covered, everyone is on the same page. When program specific training happens at the patrol site, it's geared for that program. Folks, what do you think? It's just a thought.

Kudu, I'm an Eagle Scout (1980), served in all the usual troop leadership positions, attended Brownsea 2-2 when I was SPL, went to Philmont (1976), did lots of backpacking (with full packs), Even got elected into OA, became a Brotherhood member too. Camped i the rain, camped in the snow, Went to WB, SR-59. Never 'camped' in a cabin until a year ago when I took the family to KOA. So I guess I've been there, done that. You know, got the patch too. For the life of me, I only know of two guys who claim to be Eagle Scouts, and frankly, I don't know that they were even Tenderfoot one day. They are also father and son. Both clueless. About the only thing I agree with you (in this thread anyway) is that non-outdoors people should NOT be teaching outdoors skills to SM's, ASM's, etc. Perfectly fine though for Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, those 2 classes are video tape presentations with Q&A. Also that WB should not be dumbed down. Sorry Brent, I think it should be for Boy Scout leaders only, they HAD a cub leader WB until the new program came out. I had an 8 day (3 weekend program), not the current 6 day program. Wood Badge, well, I guess I'd rather see a return to the pre 21st century program. But even then, have ONLY qualified people attend, not the clueless. There is a way we can have some of our cake and eat it too, Here's how: Just because something isn't required for a badge or rank, we can still do it anyway. SM, ASM, SPL etc, find a campground in advance and give patrols a map and compass, give them some bearings and let them go. You've already been there, send them down the road or trail, 10 minutes later, send the next patrol. Make an activity something like scouts having to lash something for some other purpose. Have them break camp sometime, pack up and hike, go 5 miles, set up camp. There, you got 4 miles plus one. No, it isn't adding to the requirements, but anyone who wants to use that hike for camping MB could. In other words, we can still teach them the skills they need so they can be better scouts. Give them the program , make it fun. BTW, the guy who suggested that scouts walk with a sack lunch in empty packs should be keel hauled. An area SM recently did a Mafeking type experience for his troop, if anyone is interested, send me a PM with your email address and I'll make a connection for you.

Scoutinagain, Rizzuto and Carey used 'holy cow', but Rizutto's was much shorter duration in pronunciation where Carey was usually bombed out of his mind by the 3rd inning, that it became more of ' hooollyyy Cooowww!, hey Santo, pass me another Budweiser while we watch that one (hiccup) go out to Waveland Avenue."

I ditched the rectangular bag for a muumy bag. I bought it at Wal-Mart and paid around $30, rated to zero ddegress. Very warm, stuffs easily into a stuff sack with compression straps, lightweight and fairly small. My shoulders kept getting cold with the rectangular shaped bag. I sleep on the ground with a closed cell foam pad under me.

One day at the table, I did an impression of Harry Carey: That's a well hit ball, it's going back, back, Holy Cow! ..... Then one of my daughters said "Gee dad, you sound like Harry Carey, too bad you look more like Drew Carey!

OGE, Calico I knew there was something I liked about you two, I grew up in DuPage County and always wondered why people would get cable. We had a bunch of channels to choose from. Now after being away from Chicagoland for 26 years, I know why we get cable, to get WGN to watch da Cubs! Eamonn, If you ever want to enter Amazing Race and would like to enter together, let me know. I enjoy watching Are You Being Served on PBS, darn thing is, it's never on the same time twice. PBS is bad about that. Except New Yankee Workshop is fairly consistent.