Gonzo1

SueM, Point taken. WB was a life changing experience for me too (I used to be an Eagle). BTW, we should always be looking for "new ticket item" by identifying the things that need our attention and work on them. IMO, it never ends. LadyLeader, It's too bad your council only offers WB on such a limited schedule, our council is having 2 courses this year. ou can always go out of council. When I attended, there was a whole patrol from out of state. Enjoy your course, take notes, don't worry about your ticket, your DE shouldn't be involved, it's up to you. Your Coach/Counsellor and/or Troop Guide will help you. Most of all, the opinions expressed here belong to the poster, nothing is intended to be personal and I wish you the best of success in all of your Scouting activites. Gonzo

CeeJayRocker, Welcome. That's half the problem. In my opinion, WB should not have been changed, but rather kept the same and have new a course formed if BSA wanted to focus on the management stuff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't WB was broke. Maybe Scoutmaster Fundamentals would have been a good course for the management, or New Leader Essentials, or expanding Fast Start.

I don't think the blue star is for someone currently serving on active duty as much as it is for someone actually serving in the war zone. Scoutldr may need only stars for those actually serving in the war zone. BTW, Scotldr, ask your aged out scout's parents if they have a general power of attorney, if so, you may consider registering him and sending him Scouting Magazine. Keep him informed about what's going on in the troop.

I enjoy reading BL, my favorite parts are the True Stories of Scouts in Action and the jokes. My favorite joke from BL is: Book Never written: Race to the latrine by Wille Maykit, Illustrated by Betty Woant

Pack, Save some caserole for me, I'm on my way over!! (just as soon as I get my rear end off the couch!) Gonzo

In preparing cubs (webelos) for Boy Scouts, make sure they have every opportunity to EARN the AOL. Keep their program fun, get them outdoors and make sure they can build a fire and know what a duty roster is. ....... That should do it.

Happy Thanksgiving to all and Happy Birthday to you Eamonn. I love that green bean caserole!

I use cable high speed internet, it took only 2.3 seconds to switch screens, not too bad for me. I like it.

Estee, What outfit are you with? Green berets as part of a cub leader (I assume) uniform ???? What the heck is a scarf doing on a cub uniform?? Cubs and Boy Scouts wear a neckerchief. You said: Our uniform consists of a Khaki Shirt, scarf and shorts, long trousers for the adults, brown socks and black shoes and either the Cub cap or green beret for adults. The uniform is worn during all pack meets and Cubs can not participate in Grand Howl etc if not in full uniform. Brown socks and black shoes? Sounda like a fashion mistake. Gotta be careful with berets, unless shaved and formed for the wearer who ust also have short hair, the wearer looks he is selling pizza. With all of your different 'uniform' components, y'all might save some money by just wearing the standard uniform.

Brent, Maybe the Fast Start and New Leader Essentials could have more added to them. Maybe something else could be changed. I know this is an uphill battle for me, so I guess I'll stop swinging at this horse, at least for now. My son (Web II) will move up soon and will be joining a different troop than the one he would normally feed into. The COR has asked me to become SM soon, so I too will continue to apply WB training. One of the scouts (Second Class) said they primarily camp at Scoutland at Camp Rainy Mountain. I'll be changing that from the start. Seems fairly well boy led, so only a few adjustments may be necessary to improve things there. All the best, G

GNS Guy, Thank you too for your service. What I'm asying is that when a person comes in off the street and is a cub scout leader, that person may not have enough experience to fully appreciate WB, to know the outdoor skills, etc. Sure, some outdoors person from the YMCA might be able to fake 'till he can make it, I'm saying leave it the way it was. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. If you had been to the other course, you might agree, maybe not. There are many things I'd like to change, but I'm not trying to change things like Brianbuff wants to. I'm saying don't change for the sake of change. Wow, the calendar went from 1999 to 2000, so let's turn over the apple cart! As for LadyLeader, it appears her plate might be full, she said she's "Wolf den leader, Advancement chair, Popcorn Kernel and on District committee" That's a bunch for anyone, especially someone new. The program won't go away, get some experience, go later. G

SueM, Keep up the good work! Keep at it, change will happen, see PM. If ever there was a ticket item for someone in your area, here it is: Develop a MBC list for the district. Someone from each district could do one for their own district, then the council would have a list. All the best, G

GNX Guy...... Guess the 7 years I spent in Boy Scouts was a waste, eh??? That's not what I said, did I. I said that IMO WB should be for boy Scout leaders. I've been ASM in 3 troops, SM, Unit Commissioner and now I am WDL. I was SM when I went to WB. Be clear about reading this, there were no cub scout or Explorers/Sea Scout/ Venturing or Varsity people there. It was for Boy Scout leaders. I didn't run the program, they didn't ask me when they wanted to change the program, I would have said NO!!!! It seems BSA makes changes for the sake of making changes. Kinda like "Quality Unit", it will be something else for the next for years and probably something else after that. BTW, why didn't you go when you were a Boy Scout leader? Eh?

Brent, As you know, this is probably the ONLY thing we disagree on, right? I already have preconceived ideas about WBY2K, and despite being self employed, I can't take a week off. I'm an Eagle, been ASM, SM, ASM again, Unit Commissioner, WDL. I served for 24 years in the military both enlisted and officer and was an Aide to a Brigadier General and I was an Executive Officer of a surgical unit in an Army hospital. The point is...... I know how to lead people. No offense personally to any of you, especially Brent, SueM and LadyLeader (even Fuzzy, Merlyn, etc......) I'm not sure what more I could gain. I've found the most important thing about "working the ticket" is to continue developing and working 'tickets' for myself. I serve on staff for Boy Scout Leader Outdoor Skills training. BTW, I'd enjoy 'observing' at Bert Adams. All the best, Gonzo

SueM Ah, it explains a lot to me too! In my opinion, WB SHOULD be what it was, not what it is. As I understand it, the program is being watered down. When I first heard about WB 21st Century, the program was 'advertised' as indoors and seminars only, no outdoor experience. First and second year cub leaders don't have enough experience. For that matter, first and second year Boy Scout leaders don't either. BTW, there was not a cub scout leader WB program, it was a cub scout trainer WB as someone has pointed out in another thread. The course I had had outdoors skills (which for me were too basic anyway, I'm an Eagle Scout and found too many novices there too), mat also had leadership and management skills training. Most of our classes went until 10:00 pm. Nearly all of the course - 3 weekends, not 2, was conducted outdoors. We had some of the touchy feely stuff about feelings, too. Let's see, preparing the boy for Boy Scouts? How about having the Webelos II do the requirements for the Arrow of Light. Have a fun program that gets them outdoors. I agree that there are 'unworthy' or incompetent WB'ers, like there are incompetent people in many positions or prefessions. I suppose many of us will not agree on this subject and many others too. Just because a program (or rule) exists today does not in my opinion mean that is necessarily should. BTW, I think many things in BSA should be the way they were, like having tougher requirement for rank and merit badges. Not changing the wording in the Arrow of Light requirements to put the word "mosque" before church. I'm not against anyone going to a mosque, the main change was the order of the places of worship. What's the idea? Are they trying to get us used to saying mosque? What BS! Check: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/arrowoflight.html and click on "To see the the changes which were made in 2003"

I find the dipping and spitting to be pretty much the same. Not allowed, but often done. I gues some guys think we don't see it.

This is about the only thing that BrentAllen and I disagree on. I took WB in 1994, well before the current cirriculum of even having cub scout leaders participate. When I took it, it was considered something like advanced scotmaster type training. It was afterall, Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge. It was something I looked forward to for a long time. It was a great experience and a life changing one too. Should you go? Of course. My only concern is that there is / are several cub scout oriented courses that may be more appropriate for new cub scout leaders. On the other hand (Ladyleader, here's where I get a little smart allecky) if WB is so good, why not scrap all other training and combine them with WB, make it all about a 2 week program, or go about 5 - 6 weekends and have eveyone get their beads. That's what is is all about anyway, right?, the totem? the songs? .........C'mon, get more appropriate training FIRST, then later, after you have developed a heft and feel for BSA, go to Wood Badge. Here's another point, I know a SCOUTMASTER who went to WB as a cub leader, the guy doesn't know jack about being a scoutmaster. He doesn't know the basics about the Guide to Safe Scouting (G2SS). But, he has his beads. My personal opinion is that should have never been offered to cub leaders and that's why many people (including me) believe WB is being 'watered down'. Sorry for upsetting some of you. Gonzo1 Eagle Patrol SR-59

SueM, What????? you said: .....we traditonally used to do "Boards of Review" (that's what they called them mainly..we've kind of changed that to "MB Summaries" now and only do them for MB's that the boys work on independently without a counselor of any kind. Isn't the lad supposed to get the blue card signed by the SM first, have a MBC identified first? You're not doing BOR? Based on what YOU have said here, you're unit needs a pile of training, starting with how to do a Board of Review and Merit Badges. Check these links for additional info on merit badges: http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy1.htm http://www.meritbadge.com/info/cnsling.htm Gonzo

Welcome to the forum! If you're under 21, you may be able to join Venturing, the co-ed part of the Boy Scouts of America. Gonzo1

ladyleader. WB will certainly help make you (and your unit) better if you apply what you learn during WB. My only concern is that you may be too new for WB. Stick with it a while, gain some more experience, have some fun, apply what you are learning now and maybe in a couple of years, go to WB. In my opinion, WB should be considered as the pinnacle of adult Boy Scout leader training. Since Wood Badge for the 21st Century came out, it has been opened up to cub leaders and others as well. If BSA is not careful, WB will be regarded as the "been there, done that" course, then most leaders will have beads and you'll look out of place if you don't have any. Have fun with your boys now, go to other training courses as they are offered. Gonzo1

Gern, Voting is one thing. Writing a letter is another. Otherwise, they won't know. So, write a letter and call them, ask them to support stem cell research.

Packsaddle, I was not aware that the embronic stem cell research does not kill the embryo. If this is in fact the case, all of you / us should contact in writing, by phone and fax our congressman and both senators and encourage them to write and present legislation accordingly. G

Fuzzy Bear, After reading your recent reply/post, I think we probably agree on more things than disagree. No need to go back over line by line, but I don't think the USA would gas our own people, but we have some common ground and some difference. Otherwise it might the United States of Gonzo or the People's Republic of Fuzzy . The typed word is good, but does not do justice to discussion. *************************************** Perhaps some of us could get together at some scout camp someplace and camp, eat, drink coffee and sit around a REAL campfire and chat, meet one another and see what each of us looks like, ah wait a minute, that would mean you and I would probably have to shake hands and smile at each other. I bet though, that by the time we pack up to head home, we could give each other a big ol' man hug and say 'how 'bout them Chicago Bears?!, yeah, how 'bout them Colts?!' **************************************** Gonzo

Gern, Let me begin by saying that I did not study Bio Ethics in my specialty. Please tell me why you draw the line at using embryos for research, but do nothing to stop the destruction of thousands of unused embryos that happen every single day? I don't know, didn't study Bio Ethics. Why did Bush bring babies, adopted from in vitro fertilization clinics, onto the stage when he vetoed the legislation? Maybe he has a religious conviction against it? Maybe he didn't want clinics to be farming embryos for research? Why didn't he immediately propose the elimination of in vitro fertilization clinics who don't place every single embryo they produce? I don't know, Do you see the disconnect? I can kinda see your point, but the human body has stem cells that can be used. The bigger deal is who is paying for the research, Government or private donations. I have no problem with non-embryo privately funded research. My mom passed away from complications of MS, I'm not complaining that the feds didn't do enough to save her, it's not Uncle Sam's responsibility. No, I'm not cold, just realistic. Maybe some MS group can raise funds, maybe some diabetes group can raise funds. My dad has had diabetes for almost 20 years, again, it's not the taxpayer's responsibility. Trev said it best. Its OK, in fact great, to spend billions of FEDERAL dollars to devise and execute new ways to kill people, but it is immoral to spend it on saving the lives of Americans, including my son. Go figure. Actually, lots of Americans and pharmaceutical companies and philanthropists spend money on research, the federal government spends lots of money on research too. President Bush does ot want to spend federal money on EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS.

Gern, Sorry to hear about your son. I don't mean to come across as cruel. The President doesn't want FEDERAL spending on ebryonic stem cell research. There are other types of stem cells and private companies / donor could come up with the research money.