fred8033

bnelon44 ... I agree on your criteria. The million dollar one is "Scout did not complete a requirement even though it was signed off." IMHO, that would have to be very significant and focusing on the absolute of complete and not on the subjective analysis of the quality of the completion. It ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS reflects a mistake by the SM or by the person authorized by the SM to sign off on the requirement. Not of the type of "we don't think he learned it well enough." The person who was authorized to review and test the scout already blessed the achievement. You don't undo the completed requirements anymore than you undo ranks. GTA 8.0.1.1 Not a Retest or "Examination" makes it pretty clear that's not the job of the BOR. It would need to be more absolute such as he wasn't there he didn't do it. ASM signed in the wrong spot. Scout was never reviewed and tested. (such as in a group setting and the scout gone during the review and testing.) Maybe it was signed based on bad info from the scout. "Yeah I participated in a flag ceremony at XXXX camp" and neither the scout or the leader realizing it was important that he was a cub scout then and not yet a boy scout. Example: First class rank - Valid signature for "securing the ingredients" for a patrol camp out meal for first class rank. "secure the ingredients" means going shopping or raiding parents cabinets or harvesting from troop extras. Anything that supplies the patrol. Pass - He secured the ingredeints and it was a great meal. Pass - He secured most of the ingredients, but forgot some. Pass - He secured the ingredients, but they were poptarts, cool aid, peanut butter and donuts. Pass - He did not go on the camp out, but he did secure the ingredients and provide them to the scouts who did go. Fail - He never secured the ingredients at all, whether assigned to or not. Example: Second class rank - Valid signature for "Show what to do for "hurry" cases of stopped breathing, serious bleeding, and ingested poisoning". Pass - He can explain in detail everything about it. Pass - He can't explain the best, but he was there and was tested and passed by an SM authorized signer. Fail - Someone mistakenly signed off on it thinking they were signing something else. Fail - He wasn't there even though the authorized signer thought he was there. Fail - He was never originally tested on the skills and the authorized signer thought he had been tested. If there is something I'd use as discretionary / subjective it's this from the GTA "A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting's ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life." ... But this would reflect a more delicate discussion that may or may not result in a pass. But it would need to be pretty significant for me to fail him. More than just a rude or insensitive remark.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Yeah, I don't have trouble with BrentAllen's approach either. Documented expectations. An honest effort to work in the boundaries of the printed BSA program. My issue is when leaders acknowledge the printed requirements but willingly go rogue to refuse to acknowledge when the scout has earned advancement. IMHO, it's not about quality of the program. It's about power control and disempowering the scout.

Duplicate.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Duplicate.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Yeah, I don't have trouble with BrentAllen's approach either. Documented expectations. An honest effort to work in the boundaries of the printed BSA program. My issue is when leaders acknowledge the printed requirements but willingly go rogue to refuse to acknowledge when the scout has earned advancement. IMHO, it's not about quality of the program. It's about power control and disempowering the scout.

BORs don't really determine if scout advances or not in the typical "awarding" mentality. They are checking all requirements were completed, encouraging advancement and reviewing how the troop did with the scout so that the troop can improve the program. If all BOR members don't agree the scout completed the requirements, they are to identify in writing the specific requirements the scout failed to meet and what needs to be done to complete those requirements. SMCs don't really determine if a scout advances at a SMC. The SMC requirement is to have a SMC. There is no requirement to PASS an SMC. With that being said, many scoutmaters reserve signing off on the scout spirit requirement to themselves and will only do that during the SMC. But even that is a conversation with the scout mostly reviewing himself with guided conversation from the SM. ... And now the large debate starts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Brent Great comments. Cool. I'm really okay with everything you wrote. ... I really like the pay in advance for camp outs. It would be an interesting approach. Less work. More incentive to attend. Not sure we could do it as our events cost about $30 for a weekend. QUESTION - If a scout does not attend an event, does not sign up and lets you know he won't be able to attend, does he get a refund or credit to his account? Or is it a pre-paid use it or lose it approach. ... Anyway ... I really like your approach on things. Nice. Peter

Brent - I'm okay with what your saying. For inactive, I'm hearing specific measurable critieria. For high standards, I'm hearing you don't re-register inactive scouts. I would not necessarily choose the same, but it seems consistent and within your troops rights to set such a policy. ... #1 Your "active" definition seems reasonable. "... misses 4 consecutive meetings/activities/outings with notification ...." I would chose differently, but it seems reasonable, measurable and sounds like it is written down and communicated. Fine I'm sure there will be still challenges such as if scouts don't sign up for activities and outings, do they need to give notice they are not going? Is it assumed everyone participates in everything? Or is notice only needed for an activity / outing only needed if you signed up saying you would go. Pretty much reduces it to four troop / plc meetings. What if the scout says to the PL "I've got alot of homework tonight and can't make it." But the PL doesn't tell the SPL or records it elsewhere? Will there be an attendance form to be filled out by each PL and then reviewed by the SPL / SM? Is notice supposed to be email or other? I'm just saying that some scouts don't stand up for their rights as strongly as others do. It's hard to be equally fair to all. What if the scout says to the PL "I've got alot of homework tonight and can't make it.". If he had not given notice for three meetings, now he just reset the consecutive unnotified absences active window. Scouts could stay active for years by only giving notice once every four troop meetigs and thus being deemed active for years without doing anything as a scout. What if his parent is on the ball and drops an email to the SM saying the scout will be absent. It's notification. I can't see not accept the parent saying the scout will be gone or not use it for notice. The scout hasn't done anything, but will still be active. Yet another interesting point. IMHO, you almost need to remove the notice part. It just teaches scouts to be good with excuses or getting others to cover for them. It removes the teeth from the policy. How about something such as scouts will be considered inactive after any month in which they do not participate in any scouting event: meeting, plc, activity or outing. Easy to administer. No tracking notices. No favoring those scouts who have a good communication channel and those who don't. Again your rule is reasonable. I'm just being a devil's advocate. ... #2 Membership. I do like how you apply the high standard. Right up front. To be a member of your troop scouts are expected to participate. If scouts don't, then you won't be recharter them. Again, I don't necessarily want to be in that troop. But I recognize your troop's right to define such membership expectations. And there are benefits. Devil's advocate: So a scout becomes inactive for some reason (sports, school play, academics, church, job, etc) for say three months ... DURING THE RECHARTERING TIME. Really? I'm betting you will encounter adult leaders in your troop that will argue against unregistering specific scouts. It will be difficult to do it without creating hard feelings. Plus now to become active again, the scout needs to fill out a new application to join the troop. It would be interesting to see how that plays out. I'd bet some attend to avoid that reprecussion. Or give better notice. I'd bet others use it as an excuse to end their scouting careers. But if you do recharter them, now they are pretty much determined to be "active". Heck per your own words, you wouldn't recharter inactive scouts. So rechartering is a troop statement of the scout being active. Again, I prefer to leave the scouts on the roster if we think they like scouting and will participate in activities at the level they can. Have scouting be their safe haven. Scouts go through alot of stuff during their transition from 11 years old to 18 years old. Girls and jobs. Alcohol and drugs. Death, divorce and disease. It's nice to have scouting there for them ... both to grow while in the program ... and as a friendly safe haven to retreat into when problems occur ... and as something they can have as part of themselves that that stands for high values and high expectations. They might not be as involved as you want, but I've seen it helpful for the boy to identify himself as a scout. The boy makes better choices in life. This last reason itself has proven valuable in the past. .... Anyway, your policies seem reasonable. Nice job. It's a good step forward. I don't think you will avoid all challenges. But at least it's published and communicated.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

pack or troop?

Beavah - Hmmmm.... I have alot of respect for ya, but now your just blowing hot air. Your mis-framing this debate into two camps. Requirements focus versus quality of scout focus. That's not the case. And it has never been the case. It's not two camps at all. It's about multiple topics. - How do you deliver a good program? - How do you set expectations? - What do you do when you get a scout from another troop? - What do you do when a troop messes up? - What do you do when you don't think a scout deserves advancement? I think we're in pretty strong agreement on several, but we're clearly differing on others. I think we agree on how to deliver a good program and accepting a scout from another troop. .... How do you set expectations? - IMHO, expectations are either enforcable and not enforcable. We need both types. But to make an enfoceable active participation rule, you make it measurable, write it down, establish it at the start, communicate it and make it consistent with BSA publications. Beavah: "Yeh just have to have a common sense of character and commitment that's consistent." Yeah I don't buy that at all. It scares me. That's how we damage people and create grudes ... usually when leaders change or people disagree. Ya just can't enforce intangibles. GTA page 21 says "Units are free to establish additional expecations on uniforming, supplies for outings, payment of dues, parental involvement, etc, but these and any other standards extraneous to a level of activity shall not be considered in evaluating this requirement." (requirement being active participation). GTA also says "his unit's pre-established expectations that refer to a level of activity". So units need pre-established expecations. IMHO, they are not pre-established if they are not written down. So if the scout is not meeting your unit expectations for behavior, supplies, dues, parental involvement, etc, then you can ask him to change or leave the troop ... because he's not meeting your unit expecations. But you really can't say he's not fulfilling BSA's active participation requirement. To target active participation, you pretty much have to establish percentages (i.e. ... LEVELS ...) of troop meetings, camp outs, activities, volunteer service, etc. And ya write it down at the start. Not three years into the scout's membership. And ya definitely don't say "well we just don't feel you are active enough". And it's just not right to say "we just don't feel you are committed enough". Did the scout do his POR? Then he's committed enough. ... What do you do when a troop messes up? Depends. But for advancement, a completed requirement stays completed. We're not talking about forged signatures. We're talking about a BSA leader after-the-fact wanting more. At that point, the requirement is done. So a scout sat in the troop for four years. In the 4th year ... because he wants to earn eagle ... now you want to tell him he's not active enough? Come on. A dis-service has been done to this scout for the last three years! Whether or not he's going for Eagle, you should be letting him know pretty quick that he's not meeting troop expectations. And ya do it really quick because he only needs six months (or four for earlier ranks). But in his forth year? Too late. He completed the requirement with his POR. He completed the requirement again with his first six months in the troop. And again with his next six months. And again with his next six months. And again with his next six months. etc etc. Heck if it was swearing, you'd talk to him. You wouldn't go thru three years of swearing only to learn he's going for Eagle and then talk to him about his swearing being incompatible with advancement. This is about when troops mess up and don't deliver the scouting promise. A weak program. In-appropriate signed offs. Not establishing unit expecation. Not communicating expecations until the 4th year. When the troop messes up, ya don't blame the scout. You fix the program and move on. ... What do you do when you don't think a scout deserves advancement? This is my main concern. At that point, you do fall back to the BSA requirements. When two people disagree, you fall back to the original agreement. That agreement is the BSA rank requirements. Nothing more. Nothing less. If we are to be honorable leaders, then we honor the requirements as published. ... IMHO, a key principle is scouts control their own advancement. Not the adults. That's why there is explicit criteria laid out in 280 approximate requirements. You complete those and you earn advancement.

ZZZZZZ zzzzzz ......

Beavah wrote: "SpencerCheatham's unit did meet with the lad well nigh a year in advance, explain that he hadn't yet met and wasn't meeting their active and Scout Spirit requirements, and spelled out clearly what the expectations were. They reinforced that several times. From where I sit, they met all of the unit expectations detailed in the current Guide to Advancement." Yeah - well I sort of see that as three years too late. Here's the points that I see. .... #1 The scout had a POR somewhere. I'm assuming it's with his previous troop. If the scout completed his POR, he's been "active". Otherwise, he don't credit his POR. I'd really enjoy being on the Eagle BOR and asking why a scout was credited with POR but not active. It would be very interesting. And I don't think the scout would be the one feeling the pressure. Perhaps a good debate is do you accept completed requirements from a previous troop if they are not reflected in ScoutNET or some official source. IMHO, you do. But it really seems here that this is the issue. I know when we've had transfers we've called the previous troop SM to ask questions. Reasonable thing to do. #2 It's not active in the last year. It's active for six months cumulatively since becoming a life scout. So we're talking about a FOUR YEAR SPAN where the scout paid dues, was on the roster and attended meetings. 30% of meetings, but meetings still. #3 Standards for performance need to be established BEFORE, not after. Four years in the troop! Approaching him in his last year saying you expect more is moving the goal posts and denying credit for where credit is due. It's trying to slip a fast one by the scout. So if you notice a scout is not active enough, talk to him one or two months into the time frame. Using the GTA POR policies, I'd also ask him how much time he thinks he should receive as "active" and go with it. But at least going forward for the next four months expectations have been set. #4 Standards are only standards if applied to everyone. By definition, a standard is not on a case by case basis. Yes per the GTA troops can establish their own reasonable standards for active. Write the standard down. Publish the standard. Communicate the standard at the start (or at the point of change). So unless every scout is being asked to organize and run a camp out and activity, then it's not really a "standard" by any sense of the word. .... IMHO it comes down to that BSA has designed plenty of discretion points into the advancement program. There's about 280 of them.. Ten for the scout badge. Ten average for each of the six ranks. Ten average for the twenty one merit badges. So we have a scout who's been deemed acceptable on all but one ... "active". It really makes me wonder. Could more have been done to engage the scout, sure. Could the scout have done more to be a strong member of the troop, sure. Give credit where credit's due. He met BSA's expectations. If the SM and CC don't feel the scout met some unwritten definition of "active", that's their business. IMHO that says more about the troop and it's leadership than it does about the scout. ... Just don't play a games with advancement. High expectations are great. I'm all for it. Don't sign off on requirements until they are done. But to "game" advancement after-the-fact is just mean and a bad example for our scouts.

I've seen several scouts like this. I don't have any magical advice other than to work thru it. But I would love to hear some good advice.

Sure advance him. It's an honest conversation. I'm sure there are many kids in his situation. At least he was honest and not hiding things.

Weird as it is, I like reading IRS and state tax revenue documents. It's fascinating stuff to try to really understand. Really. Anyway, it's not entirely correct to say the bottom 50% pay 2.7% of the tax. It's more like the 14% of the population in the 36% - 50% of income bracket pay 2.7%. The lowest 36% pay no income tax. The lowest 25% get "credit" for taxes paid that amount to around $60 billion or about 5% of all income taxes collected. Just saying that if you factor in credit given, the bottom 50% of the population actually pays a "negative" 2.3% of the taxes collected. I'm not arguing against EITC. I'm just saying taxes are no where as punitive as stated.

Beavah wrote: "Now the lad who struggles with his chosen sport, who comes to every practice for four years, who makes every game even though he rides the bench much of the time, who cheers for and supports his comrades - in many if not most sports programs, that boy will get a Varsity letter in his senior year. He has demonstrated commitment and character throughout his career." Yeah well... Probably not the best analogy. We don't hand Eagle out to any scout who stays long enough. In fact, I know plenty who argue against awards for just being there ... including you I believe. You need to demonstrate the criteria laid out for the achievement. I think this is why BSA has worked pretty hard to define explicit criteria for each rank. So that it doesn't become an attendance reward. So that it stays under the control of the scout. So that everyone knows what's expected. IMHO, I think scout A did fine. If he moves on, fine. Maybe for him, he's got all he can get out of scouting. Let him learn more life lessons elsewhere. ... Ya know Eagle only requires six months of being active. Odds are if a life scout is in your troop for four years, he's probably easily fulfilled the active requirements. I'd be more concerned with the scout pushing the other envelope the other direction and trying to advance with five months and 25 days when six months are required. ... On a side note, I find it interesting that Arthur Eldred completed his eagle requirements in about 18 months. But his board of review did include practical tests on merit badge expertise. Interesting.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

OldGreyEagle - Eagle. Every scout has his own path. Some fast. Some slow. Some outstanding. Some just scraping by. Each scout has his own path. I remember a scoutmaster who kept singing the praises of this young scout and kept saying the scout was definitely eagle and SPL material. Yep the kid earned eagle and became SPL. But in the end, the kid lacked humility and empathy and was sort of pompous. I kept thinking that this kid was affected by the SM's special comments in the same way kids are affected when parents say the kid can't camp without them. ... As a devil's advocate... Perhaps if cases like this are tough, then the real option is to not accept those scouts into the troop. You won't have enough explicit requirements to use to hold the scout accountable. Oh. A 13/14 year old life scout and only have four badges and one project left??? Already got the POR / active part done? Hmmm... Probably not a good fit for our troop as there's not much left in your scouting journey. I'm not really advocating for this, but it's sort of what I'm hearing. The scout could have camped more. The scout could have stepped up to help others more. BUT ... he'd already completed the BSA requirements. There's usually alot of wishing involved when we talk about shoulda coulda woulda. Just be happy the scout valued scouting at the level to finish the badges and perform the project. Congratulate him on his achievement. ... On a side note, it feels like there's a joke in here somewhere. An Eagle BOR is staffed by a pastor, a laywer and an engineer. (Switched priest to pastor to avoid Catholic bashing). They face a 14 year old scout with 70 nights of camping and 30 merit badges. The pastor congratulates him for being such a dedicated loyal scout. The lawyer congratulates him for completing the requirements as published. The engineer questions the scout's commitment to the Scout Oath's mentally awake because the scout had 49 more nights of camping and 9 more merit badges than needed. I wish us engineers were better at writing jokes.

I've heard of people using insulation sheeting (Owens Corning Foamular F-150 1 inch x 48 inch x 84 inch). One sheet should be plenty to cut into numerous boats. Get some dowels. Get some construction paper. Nice quick craft project. Only concern I have is the mess from cutting the foam. I'm not sure how messy it is though. We were planning to try it.

Beavah - I've got alot of respect for your well informed rationality and logical conclusions. But I think this is our constant difference of position. I believe the whole scouting environment is to be used to teach lessons and develop character. I'm all for high expectations and a solid program. But advancement is only one of the eight methods to be used to achieve our goals. ... The issue I have is that the advancement program is a commitment to the scout documented in his scout handbook. It lists specific steps to earn the next rank. It's a commitment that when the scout completes those requirements, he's earned his rank. For this scout, he completed his POR. IMHO, logically it's impossible and practically it's almost impossible to complete a POR without automatically completing "active". Again, IMHO, after a requirement is met, the requirement can't become incomplete again. So now, he's being asked to do more to show he's active, to show his commitment to scouting, to show he's earned his rank. Again IMHO, asking for more or deeming him unworthy is a horrible lesson to teach. It teaches that goal posts can be moved. That people will manipulate the rules for their higher purposes. That not everyone will be on your side. That you shouldn't necessarly trust those put in place to help you. The most important lessons we teach are taught by how we conduct ourselves. High expectations, great! Knowing how the program works, great! BUT, the most important is being fair, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, etc. And giving credit where credit is due. ... If you look back over this scout's last four years, I'm betting scouting has affected this scout's character and taught lessons. He's done four merit badges and an eagle project. And he has good character traits as described earlier. So that's involved the BSA methods of ideals, association with adults, leadership development, uniform, personal growth and advancement. Again IMHO, this exact situation calls for celebrating the scout's achievement and congratulating him. Nothing else.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

acco40 wrote: "I agree, if a unit is struggling with "who's the boss" the unit is doomed." Fully agree. What you said is key. We achieve by working together. We fail by putting up walls. BUT ... It's still very useful to understand how things are designed or documented. http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Boyscout-troop.gif I've seen it in several manuals. I think one was the Troop Committee Guidebook. I've also seen it in other documents but don't have them with me. Need to look it up. I've found several for packs. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx ... acco40: "The committee, the Scoutmaster or complete strangers may lobby the charter organization to remove adults leaders but only the charter organization may do so." Actually, it's pretty easy to remove leaders from troop membership. I can do it by going to the scout office and asking a person be removed from our roster. It's adding a person that requires both my signature (CC) and the COR. ... acco40: "It is not the committee's responsibility to approve or disapprove the program that the youth, in conjunction with your guidance, develop." Pretty much agree and I've never seen it happen. But "strictly speaking" the troop committee can reject the program. It's a simple reporting hierarchy. If the committee / committee chair disagrees with the program, they can direct changes occur. (never seen it happen). And if the SM won't make changes, then they can replace the SM until the program is as desired. ... As for forms ... LOL ... I've been working with the BSA forms for years. I never thought about the signatures. But it makes perfect sense. Cubmaster / scoutmaster signs off on youth. CC & COR both sign off on adults. LOL. I've been CC/COR for so long and have had the blessing of CM & SM to sign my name ("or designee") on the youth form. I forgot about the differences.

SpencerCheatham - I'm saddened by your comments. Luckily this scout made his way home before you and your fellow leaders "knew better". ... I don't know this scout, but given that you said "He is a polite, intelligent, reverent, hard working young man who lives the Scout spirit outside of Scouting." You also said he completed the explicit requirements to earn eagle. Merit badges. Position of responsibility. Project. Previous ranks. ... SpencerCheatham wrote: "Instead he chose to be more active in other extracurricular activities." What I'm hearing is that you and your fellow scout leaders are upset that most of this scout's journey was not done with your troop. You knew enough about him to judge him polite, intelligent, reverent, etc. But you wanted more. Would he have been a more worthy Eagle scout if he had just completed those last four badges and his project several years earlier? All I can say is send him my way. I'd be glad to help him find a supportive troop that will support him complete HIS scouting journey. ... Our troop had a scout in this exact situation. He hadn't changed troops at the point of the problem, but was very busy for the last two years and all the troop leaders changed over in those two years. They wanted to get to know him and see him step up. But he had already completed everything that was required. He even had a signed Eagle project workbook. He stood his ground and I'm very impressed for him doing that. His troop stood it's ground. So, he transferred to our troop and we were glad to help him take the few final steps to receive his earned Eagle rank. ... As for practical tests to earn Eagle, fine. Talk to BSA. Get them to change the advancement process. Until then, don't complain about the scouts or expect more than is required. Our job is to support the scouts and hold them accountable to BSA's requirements.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Horizon wrote it dead on. The one thing I'd add is that by the time boys hit 14-15 most scouts are just repeating the same experiences and camping trips over and over again. By the age of 14 /15 ... Four or five weeks of summer camps. 30 to 55 weekend camping trips. 100 to 180 troop meetings. It's entirely natural, and to be encouraged, for a fifteen year old scout to want new experiences ... sports, school plays, choir, jobs, dating, etc. Plus we want our Eagle scouts to be outgoing, inquisitive and exploring other opportunities. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Bylaws - Waste of time - Agreed. short guide for new parents - Useful.

Basement wrote: "The CC and CM are peers. The CM does not work for the CC or vice verse. The COR can remove you at any point or time for any reason. The Cubmaster is appointed by the COR. The COR can pick how ever he wants. Practically, you are correct. In a well run pack with leaders who are all friends, you are correct. But technically, the CC runs the pack committee and the CM reports to the committee. CC and CM are not peers. Same with troops. SM reports to the committee led by the CC. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx So yes in the long run everyone reports to the COR (except the COE) in the same that everyone reports to the CC except the COR and COE. As for who is responsible for new leaders including the CM, it's a combination of the CC and COR. CC is to guide the process and make sure it happens. COR though has final approval. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/06-801.pdf (page 10) http://www.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/33118_WB.pdf (page 5 and 8) In reality, packs can use any process they want to choose leaders.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Beavah wrote: "Fund raisin' apps should be dropped. If we can't get it together to approve a project and its fundraisin' at the same time, that's our problem, not the boy's." I was ready to fully agree as I don't see much use for it. The project plan already has a place for a description of how the project will be paid for and how much money is needed. In our district, we already have one guy that signs both the project plan and fundraising app. One meeting. I don't see any need for second form. BUT ... then I just double checked the form ... "Are there contracts to be signed?" ... "If so, by whom?" ... "Contract details" I don't know the right answer. I know the form did not add any value to my son's project and he raised $1800. But I could see a larger project needing higher approval levels. I don't know the right answer.