fred johnson

One thing that I did like about Trail Life was the web site and information layout. I'll give them that. Who ever put it together did an outstanding job. As for the program materials, they looked thin and tightly modeled from BSA. IMHO, I think BSA should look at Trail Life to see what they changed and perhaps reflect on improvements to the BSA program.

I mistakenly marked jjlash down. He is right in the further clarification of the question. The idea is that unit leaders (those that work with scouts) are not also overseeing the program. That is why you want committee members, the CC and the COR to not be allocated to work with the scouts. The idea is they are helping improve the program and fix issues. But that is hard to do if they are in the trenches working with the scouts. In reality, the lines get crossed all the time. Put the person in their position that best matches their role. Then support them in fulfilling that role. If they do more, great. Just make sure their assigned role is well covered.

Calico is right. The EXACT term "Unit Leader" is used because BSA has multiple programs and they need a single term for the adult scout leader. BSA documents such as advancement reports and merit badge cards refer to "Unit Leader". It is used because advancement can be worked by scouts in a troop, team, crew or venturing. So, there is no single term for the adult leader across all these types of units. Boy Scout camps will often say "unit leader" as the camp has troops, crews, teams and venturing present. The "Unit leader" may choose to delegate some authority to their assistants, but that is their choice. It is not automatic. Assistants are NOT automatically the "unit leader" ... though it's usually not that big of a deal. "Unit Leader" is confusing because it is NOT the person at the top of the authority diagram. The unit leader reports to the committee chair. The CC reports to the charter org rep. The COR reports to the charter org executive officer.

Because too many MB counselors define success as getting the scout the badge or making sure the requirements are fulfilled. IMHO, that's the wrong approach. MBCs need to cover the requirements, but success is increasing the interest and/or abilities of the scout within the boundaries of the MB. It's easy for MBCs to look at a worksheet and say, yep the scout fulfilled the requirements. It's easy to use the worksheet to increase the number of scouts you can council. It's much harder to increase interest or skill. IMHO, if we are filling out worksheets, we might as well turn the MBC program into online learning modules with automatically scored tests at the end. I like what the Boy Scout handbook said (not sure about current version) about merit badges. It says merit badges exist to increase skill in things boys like to do try out new activities that might result in new interest IMHO, workbooks do the opposite.

Well written ... another challenge is adults volunteer often for adult friendship. Now you are going to put their adult friends in other rooms or separate them? Like scouts, adults will gravitate toward their friends. Your description of "lopsided" is exactly the same thing that happens with BSA webelos shopping model. Some groups do well and the others starve. It's not a model that promotes a balanced model.

BSA promotes a "shopping model" that is NOT designed to have level recruitment across troops. It's designed to weed out bad troops. Unfortunately, it has the effect of weeding out troops that are not recruitment focused. I've seen many troops pervert their program to make themselves look better to new scouts. In addition, BSA adds troops in areas that do not have sufficient numbers to support another troop while at the same time watching membership drops. If you really want to support troops, promote cubs crossing over into the same troop as their charter partner. If the program is bad or if there is conflict, help them know there are always other choices. Scouts should know they can switch units anytime during the program, Tiger through Eagle. But shopping for a new unit between Webelos and Boy Scouts is an arbitrary time that causes damage in many many different ways. I've expressed this opinion before and probably will again.

IMHO, the way to make change is to build excitement and build interest. Perhaps, volunteer to run a 2nd weekend in the summer during a different month. Then coordinate taking a subset of the boys to the other camp. See if they become interested. For any week long summer camp, an hour or two drive minimum sounds reasonable. Otherwise, you are just camping at one of the locations you are camping at other months of the year.

We usually leave the selection to the scoutmaster. He usually considers who has been there the longest and helped the most that is not in OA. Then he asks them to see if they are interested and would they go through the Ordeal. Essentially, the scoutmaster is looking for something that is fair and will be used.

Lots of good reasons here. All great reasons. I'll add one more. Within walking distance !!!!! That's important given all the meetings and events and activities. Plus, your son could eventually bike to the meetings. Promoting easy of attendance and his ability to get himself there is important.

MB Worksheets ... you might want to know more background why people push-back on those. Active, moving and doing ... Merit badges like scouts are supposed to be active, moving and doing things. Unless the requirement says "write", the rest of the requirements (explain, discuss, show, etc) are to be live, not a report. Adult interaction ... Worksheets take away a key value of the MB program which is the interaction between the youth and an expert in the topic. Inspiration ... Inspiration to further pursue a MB topic is often killed by making them fill out a long, painful MB packet. Too much time ... Worksheets end up taking way more time to fill out than the amount of time the scouts spends with the counselor. The time is supposed to be with the counselor, not the paper. Workbook is not required ... There is nothing in BSA that says you have to use the workbook. BSA doesn't provide them. And if they could sell them, I'm sure they would try to make money on them. BSA provides guidance on this in BSA's Guide To Advancement, section "7.0.4.8 Unofficial Worksheets and Learning Aids". http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf I strongly discourage my sons and help them avoid MB programs that are fill-out the workbook and then talk to me type of programs. IMHO, this is what is killing scouting. People create a nice helpful tool (the workbook) that is bleeding alot of fun out of the MB program. You want to help them with the cooking merit badge: get them cooking. And in the process of doing that, also cover the requirements. IMHO, the requirements should be for the merit badge counselor to make sure they cover. The MB requirements should not be for the scout to chase. In your case, the scout should exhibit and openness and willness to be mentored by you. Through that mentoring, the requirements get covered.

Lots of good and bad advice here. "Focus on your den" ... Great advice. Make it the best it can be. If you don't like how the CC or others are running things, then don't volunteer to help at the pack level. They can't force you to help at the larger level. Den leader is already a big enough job. Focus on making sure your den has a great experience and gets chances to camp, explore and have fun. In a way, it might free you and your scouts up.My only added piece to this is be extra gracious, polite and show caring. A little grace and a smile can solve lots of problems. "Scouting isn't a democracy in terms of how leaders are determined." ... Accurate per the rules and structure, but once it happens that way things are off the rails. Committee voting on things is also not necessary. IMHO, the best solution is working by consensus with the CC helping build consensus, soliciting ideas and opinions and healing wounds and growing relationships. "Finances should not be in the power or one person or one family" ... Fully agree with this. It is best if finances and responsibilities cross families. A good way to counter act this is with visibility. Who else is on the check book? Who else can see bank statements? Are monthly statements and transactions published? There are lots of quirky people and people with agendas. My advice is #1 focus on your den and #2 build friendships with everyone. Unit committees always always always work better when everyone likes seeing each other.

They could restrict membership to the students of the school. People are mixing issues and questions. Just as a school has the right to only have their students on their football team, the school has the right to only have their students in a troop. Faith and other restrictions are a different issue. The original question was could a school run a closed unit. Closed in that they only accept members from their school. The answer would be yes that is their right.

I think your analogy is correct. Schools could use the same boudary just like with their football, softball or other teams. Note ... This is a different discussion than religious boundaries or other membership tests. A school as a charter org would be within it's rights to say only students that attend their school can join their pack/troop.

The extremes are same-age or mixed age. IMHO, it's not that simple as an either/or. Patrols need to be flexible depending on the quantity and character of the boys. The make-up needs to continually adjust. In my experience, the most important is making the boys feel ownership and a desire to be with their patrol. Maybe you have a boy that does like teaching younger scouts. In that case, pair him with younger scouts that he can mentor and that will look up to him. Other scouts may be strong willed and best fitted with their friends who can balance their strong will. The catch phrase for my preference is: individual choice. Not adult assigned. Not PLC assigned. PLC and adults can influence and help. But scouts should be able to choose who they associate (within boundaries of course). What is/are the aim(s) of scouting? Same as BSA. Character. Physical fitness. Citizenship. IMHO to do that, I want scouts to be active, participating and wanting to be there doing activities with their patrol. During their participation is when we can influence and work toward our goals. How do you know when you are successful? When we start relating more as peers that than an authority structure. When everyone just does what they need to do. When I can enjoy a long evening of cards at a picnic table with the other adults (or scouts if they want to join us). FYI ... Traditional patrol is up there with Boy Led as one of my least favorite terms. It's too biased. What did Baden-Powell design as a patrol? What have others meant? Traditional is an knock against other methods to infer an experiment that may or may not work versus a documented history. IMHO, both work but I have my preferences. IMHO, the only really destructive thing to do is go from scout's chosing their patrols to assigned patrols (by PLC or adults). Scout's can adjust from assigned to choosing their own. But if they have real ownership and pride in their patrol, assigning them to another patrol against their will is about the worst thing you can do. For all I care, a 17 year old that is a patrol of one is fine if he has a long history of that patrol. I'm more concerned with his participation than his patrol assignment. My oldest son started with seven scouts in his patrol. When he turned 18, his patrol had three members. Often only two would be on camp outs. It made their meals easy and they were able to be independent. And, they often worked as guides for other patrols. Other benefits ... Older boys can develop bad habits or other interests. Boys the same age tend to deal with those same issues continually at school. IMHO, the patrol is the main social organization of the troop too as that is where scouts spend most of their time. As such, I'm not sure I want 11 year olds to be continually exposed to the habits and issues 17 year olds are dealing with. Even worse, I think it's a youth protection issue for a 17 year old scout to tent with a 11 year old scout. I prefer ages to be closer together.

Hugely agree. IMHO, merit badge process has become lame. For most of the badges, I can't help but agree when I hear they didn't get much out of the badge. Horseback should be about riding, taking care of the horse, shoveling #### and learning at the same time. You should never have to fill out the form to earn the badge. I really question whether even buying the merit badge book is worthwhile. IMHO, the merit badge book should be more for the counselor so that they have a guide to the requirements and the level of content expected for the badge. Or if a scout is stuck learning it on their own. But a scout learning it on their own while good, defeats the mentor ship and fellowship of the merit badge process. Same with canoeing. Show a kid the requirements for the canoeing badge and I'd hope the kid would say thanks but no thanks. Those requirements should be for the merit badge counselor, not for the scout. There was a local scoutmaster who was old fashioned. His troop did a two day canoe trip every year. Any scout who had not earned the canoe badge before automatically received the badge at the end of the trip. Knowing him, I bet he just kept mentioning all the details of the badge throughout the trip as a continual learning. I bet those scouts when asked how they earned it or what they learned could answer with a whole lot of content.

LOL ... I agree. We each have our hot button reasons BSA has had trouble. I have several. I'll nominate one right now. I nominate merit badge worksheets and merit badge lectures as the cause. I've seen dozens of scouts that never want to do another merit badge sitting through two hours of pain. If you are taking a sailing badge, most of the time should be sailing. If you are doing physical fitness, you should be exercising. Scouts love to "do" thinks. Most don't like to sit and listen to powerpoint presentation for hours.

Yes, I've seen this happen. It's sad and often I think done in reactionary anger. Units have always had the right to select their membership according to their beliefs. Perhaps the real issue is the relationship between units and charter orgs is not well understood. There is nothing cowardly about it. To be honest, the decision is more fair in that it resolves an ugly long standing contradiction. BSA has always had charter partners who's values have supported this issue or other similar issue. To ask charter partners to provide space, money and support to the scouts without BSA accepting their members as scouts is wrong. Completely wrong. To be a national organization, you need to accept people with differences. BSA is a national organization. Units are local and protected by freedom of religion (if a religious charter org)

Good advice so far in this thread. Use someone else. Write your own statement of spiritual beliefs. Or have the parents write it. Avoid the hot button words. Beyond that though, applications should not be held up because one or two of the reference letters did not come in. The requirement is to provide names, etc. The letters are really appreciated, but they are not required.

BSA is not asking your unit to change or for you to change your attitudes. For years Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims have co-existed inside BSA. We differ greatly to the point there are wars in other nations over these topics. But in this country, we co-exist. It's the same issue. Unless you are disgusted with Lutherans and Baptists too, I just don't see the righteousness as appropriate. .... joking with the Lutheran and Baptist part ... sort of.

Sometimes when I need to decompress, I watch a youtube video of Don Rickles at a Dean Martin roast.

Lots of good ideas here. One of the best parts of scouting is also for the parents to make other adult friends. I am sad that you are missing out on that. I'm also sure that your son can sense that too. There are more too ideas too. Ask someone else to be den leader next year. Take the opportunity to step back and then really step back. Be supportive and thankful to the new den leader. Ask people to share meetings. Everyone take a meeting or a subject. Then let them run it and you can sit back or sit back with your son.

Nope. I don't think they did it for political reasons. I think they did it to be polite and to get out from under an ugly fight. I'm sure BSA will not have any trouble finding units with political leanings and beliefs and values that will support the child and the family. BSA can connect the child/family with that unit without compromising the values of other individuals. IMHO, these debates degrade often into the neighbor hanging over the fence and criticizing the other person's house. What I do believe ... And these may already be underway for many other reasons such cell phones or more sensitive individuals Camps are going to have significant facility cost to update to individual showers, individual changing cubes and individual toilets ... or individual outhouses for those that have used two-seaters. Guide To Safe Scouting will need to be updated again. BSA needs to double down on emphasizing Scout Sunday. It will go a long way to mending damaged relationships.

It's intentional. I have opinions. But ya know ... Scouting is not the place for those opinions. Scouting is supposed to be above these hot button topics. ... Hillary vs Trump. Pro-life vs Pro-choice. Lower taxes vs social welfare. Transgender. ... No one wins by putting scouting in the middle of these debates. The program can stand on it's own just fine above the damage. If you want to debate the pros and cons or if it's a real situation or real diagnosis or other, IMHO, that's a real debate and I think it will sway violently back and forth for another 20 to 100 years. But scouting gets no value by inserting itself into the debate. It needs to stand neutral and separate from the debate.

BSA still provides a guide to values: It's in the scout oath and law. These are some of our guiding principals. But if you want to apply these terms to the hot button topics of today's society, that's when you need to use the views of your charter org. But even then, if you look at your own membership in your unit, you will not find agreement. If you ask (and I do not suggest you do this) ... if you ask your unit members or their parents their thoughts on this issue, you will find as wide of set of opinions as you can see in this forum. Same as sitting at Christmas dinner with family. Most families do not have political agreement. We have a huge brotherhood that can keep us firmly bound.

Well said. It's not about picking a side. It's about serving the nation.