fred johnson

Find a way to minimize adult comments. You will always have parents that feel strongly or want to influence their son in the direction they think is best. That's their right and duty. But it subverts getting the scouts to speak and express their thoughts. In all things scouting, adult comments and taking charge shuts down the scouts. Find a way to minimize it.

You are obviously a caring person who values scouting. I can understand that and value that. But your comments ... and my apologies to you for using this as an example ... are a key reason that I don't like the idea of troop shopping. We say let the scout's choose, but then it's heavily biased by the adults with comments and actions such as more heavily marketing another troop or bringing the scout to their summer camp instead of the other troop. And your comments and actions will then influence the other scouts in your den potentially against their best interest. I've found that scouters often view the way scouting "should" be done as the program they grew up in. All other scouting programs are graded on their first experience as a scout. All your comments are debatable and you as a leader could help improve the troop. Some of your comments are also opposite of what I've been taught and what BSA documents. Is it a major issue? I don't know, but don't judge the local troop so harshly. You could become a leader and find a way to make them better. BUT ... I guarantee you ... a troop that is a 20 minute drive away will cost you scouts. If you have a local troop, try to work with them and make it a better troop in subtle ways.

Perhaps we need to view BSA & TrailLife similar to how we view troops in our city. We want and hope scouts will join our troop, but if they don't we encourage them to look at other troops and not give up on scouting. Perhaps it's the same. We encourage scouts and families to join BSA, but if not explore other opportunities such as Trail Life, 4H, etc and encourage families to not give up on the out doors. BSA views troop vs troop competition as a good thing. This is just another flavor of that. And it might solve some key confusion in having BSA be a nationally chartered program versus a religious program. It's sad in that I don't think anyone will be better off in the long run.

People in the debate often look down on the concern about facilities needing to be revised and update. But it's a real issue with cost that will need to be budgeted and planned. http://kstp.com/news/coon-rapids-high-school-transgender-student-wants-gender-inclusion-policy-for-locker-room-use-/4411683/?cat=1

I'm okay with co-ed scouting. It's fine with me as long as we don't lower standards or change the program, which I don't think we would need to do. But on the flip side, I get frustrated with the inconsistent arguments. For example, why celebrate WNBA or LPGA competition? WNBA and LPGA competition levels are much lower than their rivals. Seems like they should be farm leagues for the big shows and promote increasing skills and ability to get into the big shows. Further, men should be able to compete in those leagues at the same wage levels as the women. It seems unfair to promote a lower competition level at a higher wage for only that gender. Women should have the opportunity to compete against men and men against women. Same for military. Why female only boot camps? It should be full integrated jobs, housing, standards. If men have to do 8 to 20 pull ups, so should women. Same standard. Anyway, I am for co-ed scouting, but I do get tired of the inconsistent arguments.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'll be back again later this afternoon to do my next set. Until then, thank you and remember to pay your waitress.

I'd feel sorry for that scout and his family as their lawsuit wouldn't have a prayer.

I know a few very sad situations where the council denied the appeal. And the denial was justifiable, but very sad still. I know a third that would have been a denied situation, but I am proud to have stepped in. It's one of the events in my scouting history that makes me most proud. To this day the scout's troop scoutmaster tells me that the scout's family treats him like a magic man for getting this fixed. We chuckle about that.

Yeah ... I'm betting most packs deviate big time. Most packs treat all dens the same. All racing in the derby. All at pack camp outs. All at *****. Because of how packs are run, dens become dependent on big pack activities. Big monthly meetings. Big pack outings. Big pack events. There is no law saying packs have to have a pinewood derby. IMHO, it might be best if the pinewood derby became something reserved for 3rd & 4th graders. Our district holds a district pinewood derby. IMHO, it might be best to just encourage wolves and bears to go to the district race. Encourage the Webelos to go to the district Webelos woods. Encourage the district to hold a zoo day or something else for the K & 1st graders. When packs hold events, you really need to invite everyone pack. To not invite certain ages is just not good and most packs will still invite them. =============== But do you have the choice to not participate anymore? The councils I know that have lions advertise for every pack to have it. And if your pack does not have one, then they will route the interested lions from your school to another pack. That will then hurt your recruitment the next year and split your school between packs.

Sadly, I've found many many COHs and ECOHs way too tedious, overly formal in ceremony and just not enjoyable. As part of wanting scouts to "WANT TO ADVANCE", I like keeping the COHs lighter and more fun. Pot luck. Laughing. Stories. Pictures. Fun! If they find it painful to sit through a COH, then it eliminates their wanting to be the guy standing up front receiving the award. I say that because your son can make his EBOR what ever he wants. Formal or informal. Ceremonial or a structured program. With troop or without. You can't make your troop leaders participate. Hopefully, they would be graceful to show up, congratulate the scout and keep their mouth closed without a hint of their opinion on the situation. But then again, maybe the damage has been done. That's between you and your son to decide. Wishing you the best.

If you found the tent was $250 and you were able to get it at $150, I'm betting it was a different tent. Eureka has lots of models of the Timberline tent. Three thicknesses of floors and zippers. With Vestibule. etc. Timberline SQ Outfitter 4 ... List $379 ... Sale in the high $280s Timberline SQ 4XT ... List $299 ... Sale in the high $280s. We've watched sales and were able to get major discounts. We were lucky enough to get several of ours at $199 as a store was clearing out their inventory of them. We bought as many as we could. It was a good sale. To be honest, I prioritize less now about having them all match or having a stock for the troop to use. It takes one kid to not dry out a tent for a month to cause major damage to a pricy investment. Translation ... Kids (and families) take better care of their own stuff. Only way I've seen it done really well is a troop that has a big garage with hooks. When they return from camp, they hang all the tents to dry. It's a nice way to maintain inventory. ... I'm jealous.

I think it's less Mr. Orwell and more today's reality. Today's youth have grown up watching South Park and YouTube videos over and over again. I would assert it's less about Orwell and more about whether any boundaries exist. I'd argue that boundaries do need to exist for BSA skit as we do not want George Carlin's seven words at the camp fire. The real question is what are the boundaries. I'm not sure how to draw the line, but there is acceptable and not acceptable for BSA skits.

We've always been Eureka Timberline 4 tent troop. Recently, we've been replacing tents with Timberline 4XT or Timberline 4 outfitter. We had already switched to preferring a rainfly with a vestibule. The two reasons for changing to the 4XT or the outfitter was #1 the rain fly and #2 the zipper. The Timberline 4 tents never had a long enough rain fly. The corners would get wet unless you had the tent absolutely perfectly setup. Even then, I'd argue it got wet. The zippers ... grr ... we have some old timberline 4 tents that had metal zippers. A few are still useable. Then, newer versions switched to plastic / nylon zippers. Those zippers wear out and fail. The outfitter and 4XT versions also have other nicer features. But generally the rain fly and zippers are the reason for our upgrade. Our troop likes matching tents ... BUT ... we're moving toward letting scouts use what they want. The reason is easier to manager. If you don't dry your own tent, that's your issue. It just does't look as sharp to have a hodge podge of tents. It's also cheaper to manage. In the past, 3 or 4 tents were a $1000 purchase. My only real personal rule ... I hate fiberglass poles. I've had too many snap in bad weather. Fiberglass shards are painful to get out of your fingers.

Ok, that made me laugh. We often go to BWCA. But we have the canoes and gear from years of doing it. The cost is gas to drive, food and entry fees ($16 for adult, $8 for youth). BWCA is a cheap trip.

For my boys, I think the 2.5 years would have been right. One year earning Bear. 1.5 years in Webelos. No kid benefits from 5 or 6 pinewood derbies. Two yes. Three maybe. Four no. Five no. Six save me.

I'm a huge scouting advocate, but when I talk with parents ... if they ask about whether their son is ready and will get something out of it ... I advise wait for 2nd grade or 3rd grade. I think my son would have got just as much value IF NOT MORE if I just took my son on my own out once a week to do something like walk or go to the zoo. The value was parent/child. The structure of scouts added little.

$1250 is a deal. Add another thousand or more for our council. Plus four sets of full uniforms. Plus ... plus ... plus ... plus ...

I fully agree. Hugely agree. Now, we are adding Kindergarten Lion cubs. It just creates more problems. Cub scouts at 5.5 to 6 years is just too much. K & 1st grade are too young to get meaningful scouting results and adding them lowers the maturity of the whole program. Plus BSA makes the biggest impact in the Boy Scout years, but families are burnt out on scouting before they get there.

I agree, that really is the only way to create a seamless transition. Otherwise, you are always shopping to decide what is the best type of program you want to join. IMHO, it also might be good because Cub Scouts is too long with drastic different maturity levels. Perhaps the model is more like a sports program with each age bracket emphasizing different things. K&1 emphasize go-see-it. 2&3 emphasize expanding horizons and exploring the world. 4&5 emphasize first time camping. 6-8 emphasize first class skills. 9-12 emphasize adventure. Creating a single unit with divided emphasis might also be a way to avoid people developing a singular view that it will be 12 years of Tiger Cubs activities. IMHO, the program right now has not gone through enough basic structural improvements and it's hurting itself. Significant basic changes need to occur.

Motivating Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is very different. Cub Scouts get motivated with prizes, recognition and something special like a water dunk tank for leaders or pies in the face or .... Boy Scouts ... yeah ... good luck with that. If you are selling mulch, does that mean the scouts have to spread the mulch too? Great idea for a fundraiser but you almost need a group you can require participation from such as a football team.

I should mention I am very glad most charter orgs don't filter or are overly selective in their membership. It produces a better program. I just cringe when we criticize either side of this. Charter orgs provide a huge amount of support whether we acknowledge it or not. They have a right to influence programs they run. I have similar opinions when people get upset at allowing gays or transgender in the program as it's a morality issue. Our charter orgs have never had a singular beliefs on this. As such, IMHO, it was always unreasonable of BSA to ask charter orgs to support BSA but BSA would not accept all members of that charter org. We are going through a period of correction so that we learn to work together.

"I do not believe my comments are filled with contempt of others." ... Contempt is pulling race in with "blacks" to infer it's similar to racial bigotry. You further that referencing Jim Crow laws. We work with scouts of all beliefs. But a charter org can choose to not filter or to filter to match their beliefs. Most charter orgs don't filter or care. Some are open to all, but expect the scouts to attend faith services structured like their charter org. That's fine too. "I will always be tolerant of any boy that is religious even if it differs from my own." ... Well I applaud you and I am similar in that our unit has little filter for faith based issues. But, there are boundaries and at those boundaries the scout would need to find another unit.

It only needs to be interfaith if there are mixed faiths such as district events. Many avoid interfaith services as they are offensive in their generalities or what is implied. BSA is structured to support everyone. But a troop works within a chartered org and is an extension of that charter org. As such, it is completely okay for a Catholic chartered troop to run a Catholic faith service and expect it's scouts to attend. Similarly for a Jewish, LDS or Muslim unit. Ideally, we find a way to work with our scouts. But it is very reasonable for a charter org to expect faith services to reflect their faith.

Teaching morality is the whole reason we have our sons in scouts. I don't take my sons to an LDS unit as I don't share their beliefs. I would definitely not have my sons in a UUA chartered troop either for the same reason. Scouts is always an extension of the charter org and the beliefs and teachings of the charter org always affect the unit.

Mashmaster ... Your comments are filled with contempt of others. Different religious groups have different beliefs. Unless you are going to start shutting down churches, there will always be different teachings and different beliefs. As for scouts, no group has provided anywhere near the amount of support to scouts as churches have. Financial support. Space support. Volunteer support. Scouts has always had a strong faith component and it always will. "Local option" is about tolerance and working with others that believe differently. Unless you are going to shut down the churches and move scouts to city hall, then the "local option" will always exist. "no sex" ... Correct for program elements, but you can not fully separate how the program is structured and run from youth that are going through puberty. The topic leaks in and as scouters we only focus on the outer aspects such as respect and caring. "Zero issues" ... You are totally off-base with this assertion. Way off base. Just as adults can abuse, older youth can abuse those younger. It's about imbalances of power and influence. It happens. There are multiple documented cases. I know one locally. It's a reason I don't like a 17 year old sharing a tent with an 11 year old. Age is not necessarily the barrier though. It's more a matter of maturity and influence. "scouts always give the other scouts space" ... You don't know that and it's not true. I often share a tent with other adult leaders. We are discrete, but we do change in the tent and not necessarily wait for the other to leave. This is a big change, but the it's less about saying it's good or bad and more about getting the scouts out of the courts. We all need to stop saying one side or the other is right or wrong. We need to learn to accept and work together, and that's a two sided challenge.