fred johnson

Sadly, I'm betting that 30K bump from the new Lion program will cost in Boy Scout numbers. In addition to all the other challenges, I really think there is a cub scout burn-out thing going on. It's 5.5 years with heavy adult involvement and very repetitive year after year. Also, cub scouts was viewed as bow-and-arrow, knife, fire, etc. Now, it's more entertainment for the little guys. I really think it's lost it's place. I even question having Tigers in the pack. Starting in 2nd grade was the right age.

Mr. Flagg ... You are a funny man. ... I just don't believe in creating a big role for an adult, especially when I see the benefit as relatively small. I'm looking to keep the infrastructure light and easy so that we can focus on letting the scouts be scouts. We could use the software, but the software requires lots of adult time to keep accurate and useful. I remember a leader that would periodically collects the scout's handbooks so they can enter the advancements into TroopMaster. We did that too years ago. When we stopped, no one missed it. Yeah, we probably could get a scout or two more awards ... but I suspect it's fairly rare and I'm not sure the scouts care themselves. In another words, tracking all that data means lots of work with little value. Plus, I think there is huge value minimizing the adult roles.

I've been there with lots of ranks and MBs. It takes time to write the advancement cards and staple the patch. We tried printing the blue cards and advancement cards. We just don't like how they look and feel. And, they are always cut to size and look weird. Or have rough edges. ... It's nice to get the hand written cards. It's personal. As for the rest we're just not going to invest our time tracking the detailed requirements. It's just not worth the time. ... Yeah, we don't do a great job looking at if scouts qualify for other awards. We'll be doing that when we start using scoutbook ... someday. But even then, we won't enter individual requirements. Just summary rank and MBs completed. The rest is up to the scout. Our process is ... Scout owns his advancement. We help by structuring program so that each year there are opportunities to complete first class. Beyond that, we have an advancement box. When you finish a merit badge, hand it to the scoutmaster (or adv coordinator) and they put it in the advancement box. Finish a rank, they log it in the advancement box. Then periodically the contents of the box are entered into BSA online advancement. Before each COH, the advancement coordinator prints outs the advancement reports from BSA online advancement. He goes to scout shop and shops for advancement using those reports. Tracking whether a scout completed FC requirement 1 sub point B option 2 detail D is just not worth the implication of how much time it would take.

There really isn't a lack of detail issue EBORs. Virtually all I've seen work are just fine. Just rare rare situations where EBORs need flexibility.

Understood. I've seen that argument. My experience is it's all contained within one rank. Service hours and camping is pretty easy to re-create. Even rank requirements for TF, 2C and 1C that are done concurrently should be pretty easy to re-create to figure out how much was completed. I just hate to see a large large effort to save a relatively rare and small amount of time. It's one of the issues that scares me with scoutbook. I don't want to keep click and navigating web pages when all it takes is initially a paper book. For a troop of 40, it's a lot of work to keep all the small requirements updated in any tool. Camping and service hour logs are as easy as the scout walking up to the scoutmaster and saying "I think I've completed my service hours expectation". They discuss. If meets requirement, it's good. No on-going log necessary. Same with camping. ... it's my personality ... I just really like the mode of if you want to know how the scout's doing, talk to the scout.

I fully understand your view and it's a common view. My experience though is the best thing our troop ever did was stop recording the small details of scout advancement. That's for the scout to track in their scout handbook. If we want to see who's stalled, we can log into BSA's online advancement and run a report.

There is a key aspect of scouting that advancement is tool to motivate the scout. It's one of the key tools we have as leaders. IMHO, that concept is a higher priority than using advancement as a "scout" quality check. Yes as a troop quality check. Less as a individual scout quality check.

That had to be a troop decision. EDGE is a life rank requirement. Councils never see individual rank requirements. BORs review whether rank requirements are complete. Life BOR is fully within the troop. As council doesn't look at individual requirements and council doesn't sit on a Life BOR, it had to be a troop decision. Even the Eagle BOR only looks at the individual Eagle rank requirements. It does not go back and re-check all previous rank requirements.

IMHO, BSA did an incredible job. BSA added to the workbook key information that scouts and their families need. The only comment I'd have is they should move the "Navigating" section up to the first half right after the "message to the scouts and parents or guardians". The workbook includes the rules. It includes how to navigate the process. It includes keys about what to expect and recourse. So so many adult leaders have always wanted to raise the bar to show how much they value and respect the scouting program. The project is about community service and leadership. As a plan is by definition more detailed than the proposal, I fear the implications of asking plans to be reviewed and approved. It would be a return to the old days of months to get a project plan approved.

Ya know. I'd love that. A good camp fire on a camp out would be a great inspiring atmosphere for an Eagle COH.

Personally, I think it would be more efficient for you to create planning format. It's hard to have a template as the different type of adventures mean very different plans. I always start with a concept with activities, a travel plan, schedule plan and a budget listing the major hitters and their risk. Include cost risk: planned cost, lowest possible cost and highest probable. For example, airfare can be planned at $400, but you might get lucky and hit $300 or get unlucky and only find $800 tickets. I do the same for food, events. Include pricing $$ for unplanned costs. Shirts. Patches. etc. Include a payment schedule that targets somewhere between your planned ahd highest probable. Include a plan for what would be done with extra money? Refunded direct? Troop. Include how you would select which scouts go: Age then rank? Active in the troop? Other? Include how you would select which adults go: Position? Camping? Other? Include how do you minimize adults and maximize scouts attending?

We have four COHs a year. All of them are pot-lucks. In May, the troop buys the meat and grills outside. Sometimes we have a slide-show of pictures. Sometimes we have a slide show of an Eagle scout's career. Sometimes something else special is incorporated. The major part of the COH is the socializing by the scouts and families over food. Celebrating. Laughing. Bonding. The agenda is created by the SPL and SM sorting the advancements into a sequence: MBs, ranks, other special. Then when food is winding down, the SPL starts the presentation by pointing out that we have gathered to celebrate the activity and advancements by our scouts. Each scout is called up and recognized. To be honest, I always look forward to our COHs. And, I've never lost weight at any of them. They are fun.

My sympathies. All I can say is read the whole Eagle project workbook. Read Eagle, project and EBOR sections of the BSA Guide To Advancement (online in PDF form). Both have explicit statements about what scouts and parents can expect. Also, it identifies what troops and districts can and can not do. Take notes from your reading !!!! I'd also recommend reading a few key BSA Advancement News articles. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/Advancement.aspx My favorite is BSA Adv News August 2013 ... "Eagle Project Proposal Approval: Keep it Simple, Make it Fast" ... http://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2013_Aug_Sept.pdf ....................... Now, that's BSA. That's what we signed up to following (rules, guidelines, procedures) ... BUT ... getting the other person to agree and work per those BSA published statements ??? ... good luck. ... I know a neary-by district where scouts give up and multiple families I know wish they hadn't started scouting because of how they were treated during the final Eagle journey. Choose your fights wisely. Sometimes it's better to jump through the hoop to get it done instead of fighting the good fight. Your call.

I only cringe because I've seen so many well intentioned adult ideas go off track, gaining weight and self importance that they become a really bad experience. For example, our district used to have a committee review Eagle project plans, taking months, each cycle adding more comments. It did not add value. But it did drive scouts away. And those that went through it had a bad taste in their mouth. It was never part of the BSA process. Our district could have done it differently and made it a useful positive experience for the scout. But people kept deciding to add their value. Until the BSA 2011 GTA revision and Eagle workbook, no one ever said "Let's eliminate this step. It doesn't match why the scout is doing the project."

Yes, I am. But I treat this process is laid out specifically because you will see people saying things such as the following. I cringe. I cringe not because of Col. Flagg's comment as much as my experience. I've seen scouts waiting MONTHS to get their eagle proposal approved. I've seen scouts being bounced around for months because committees keep providing feedback asking for more and more from their plan. It was abusive hazing and adds little value. IMHO, it got to the point that people thought everyone should have their project plan bounced back multiple times so they had the experience as if getting the paperwork was part of the core requirement. The requirement is about service and leadership, not about paperwork. BSA has hit the right balance creating a thin light weight process. The scout can focus on doing a project where they lead others. At the same time, protections are built in so that we make sure everyone is on the same page before lots of money or dollars are spent. Yeah, I cringe when I hear that. Your troop can do as it will. Just don't justify it with how BSA teaches us to do things. BSA has communicates very well that what you describe is not to be done. I love the Eagle Project Workbook that documents to parents what to expect and what should not happen. What you describe is communicated by BSA in the project workbook as a no no.

EBOR can evaluate not only process and procedures, but also project impact and leadership. If a scout ventures out on their own, EBORs can still choose to pass even if procedures were violated. Similar, EBOR can send-back a scout that who's project was re-scoped too small or who did not show leadership for any one of many reasons.

Where does BSA say the Eagle project once signed-off something is earned. There are general statements about requirements and not re-testing, but there are also clarifications. BSA GTA has at least three clarifying paragraphs about EBOR evaluating Eagle projects. Generally, you can say a project is good when it's signed off. But the SM and beneficiary signatures are an opinion. It's left to the EBOR for final closure. BSA has really done a good job with the EBOR and GTA. I was extremely impressed when it came out as it was a huge improvement. I'm sure you would be and rightfully so. At the same time, the EBOR would be reaching out to you immediately to ask what happened? Things really need to fall apart for a EBOR to not pass a scout.

NJCubScouter ... Thanks for that reference. I don't know why I could not find that immediately.

Agreed. I must admit I cringed slightly when I read your reference to an optional "post-project review" by the district project reviewer. It scares me as someone trying to make the process more sacrosanct or more important. To be honest, the EBOR project evaluation is not a high hurdle to jump. Things really have to be out-of-whack to fail.

Yes, that is correct and that signature quote says "I agree on my honor to apply the procedures as written,". Those procedures discuss how the EBOR can consider the project.

Ummm ... That is a desired reading, but not a clear reading of the explicit words. As quoted, BSA GTA sections 9.0.2.8 says "Boards of review should " and BSA GTA 9.0.2.13 says "At the board of review, ...". This is repeated in the BSA Advancement News that adds discussion and information. Given BSA says "Boards of review", I'm going to go out on a limb and say they meant "Boards of review".

I often find the unmentioned reasons out-weight the mentioned reasons. How about ... Councils never use the information. Councils can't depend on the plans as most units forget to submit. Councils can't depend on the plans as the plans have little useful data. Councils have liability if they don't actually evaluate plans. Councils have liability if they don't staff sufficiently to evaluate the plans and act on the evaluation. Councils have liability if they knowingly have member units in good standing that camp and do activities without actually submitting plans. Councils have liability if they approve plans that have bad / wrong information. ( i.e. Why did you approve a tour plan with a revoked DL ? Why did you ??? ) IMHO, makes me wonder if the online tour plans was the trigger for canceling the plans as online data was easily to analyze for ... how many troops never fill them out how many troops fill them out inconsistently how many troops fill them out wrong how many troops did not list key risk info councils with submitted plans that were never rejected that violated BSA rules.

Actually, per BSA GTA 9.0.2.8, BSA GTA 9.0.2.13 and BSA clarification from BSA Advancement News Aug 2014, an EBOR does have jurisdiction to consider the project. It's not about failing the scout, but there can be postponement until issues are addressed. I'm actually on your side of this. Years ago, I was screaming mad about how our district treated scouts during the Eagle project approval process. IMHO, it's a much better process now. EBORs do have great latitude in what they consider, but it should be extremely rare. In my 12 years, I've only seen one where a scout did not earn his Eagle rank out of all in our district and we have a very large district. And in that case, it was pretty clear cut and a sad situation. EBORs need latitude as districts approve a concept and don't see it again until the EBOR. Now you can argued that districts and councils should not pre-approve a project proposal and that the decision should be fully kept in troops. Fine. That is a valid arguement, but it's a different issue. ... As long as districts / councils approve project proposals, they need latitude to consider the results. I have seen multiple close situations at EBORs. Unusually it was a highly parent-ally motivated scout. In one that I remember, the scout proposed doing a large project and that is what the district approved. Then, the scout re-scoped the project much smaller. Beneficiary and troop approved the completed project. BUT it was argued in the EBOR that the scout did not do the project that was approved in the proposal. It was not an argument that there was not enough hours or effort. It was argued the scout did not do the approved project. In addition, it was clear the scout did not show anything beyond incidental leadership in his project. Scope changes happen. Volunteer participation changes. In another, the project report was approved by beneficiary and troop. But the EBOR discussion with the scout showed the project was pretty much 100% immediate scout family work. I forget how that was addressed as I was not directly involved in that EBOR. I'm just using these two examples as cases that show EBORs need discretion. It should be extremely rare and EBORs should be looking for ways to pass the scout, but EBORs need discretion to consider the project.

I'm just reflecting what BSA has in the GTA and how EBORs can operate per those rules. IMHO, it's a good discussion whether or not councils need to approve projects. Probably same argument whether districts/councils should approve the Eagle rank. Beyond that though, I like how it's setup. Council can filter out during proposals some bad out of place projects. Beyond that though, districts not approving projects is meant to be rare. It's really the after-the-fact evaluation that happens during EBOR. And even that is almost automatic as a project needs to be really out-of-normal to run into an issue. .... but some districts are not as supporting.

If the EBOR could not consider the project, then the district / council would need to require far greater detail than a proposal provides. By allowing a district approval based on a proposal, the scout can focus on the project instead of the paperwork. It is a slippery slope. But I fear that much less than the bad experiences districts put scouts through to approve the projects. IMHO, I think BSA did strike the right balance this time. BSA did a great job cleaning up the Eagle project process.