emb021

"I just don't see how to tell the youth not to smoke when several adults at all camp outs smoke. " Simple. 1. He's a youth, not an adult. 2. If any adults are smoking, they should NOT be doing it in front of the scouts. I know a few scouters who smoke. If they need to smoke on a camping trip, they all go away from all the youth and do so. 3. Many groups & organizations set down such 'no smoking' rules for their members. I can tell you that with the college group I advise, their school has a requirement of 'no smoking' at all organization meetings & events, which all approved campus groups must put into their Bylaws. The BSA doing this is no different.

"Does anyone have more history on the evolution of the Eagle project?" Get Terry Grove's excellent work on the History of the Eagle Scout Award. He does go into the evolution of the requirements. I have it at home. Off the top of my head, I seem to recall that the initial service project was a bit 'wimpy', and was later (5-10 years) turned into the Eagle Scout Service Project as most of us know it.

Some comments: I agree to a degree with scoutldr. If he's only a Sea Scout, he should be wearing the Sea Scout uniform. I can tell you that's the Regional & National Boatswains do. John-in-KC makes a good point. I do see on occasion Sea scouts & sea scout leaders wear the flap & sash, but the rules say no. Also, there is no way he can wear the gold loops or regional committee patch. Now, that said, if he was to be elected Region Chief, I guess it would be ok to wear the tan shirt with these items, because the tan BSA uniform is a 'universal' uniform for those above the unit level. The use of Polyester/wool is popular amoung the National/region OA youth, but is in no way a requirements. I know of many of the adults at those levels who do NOT wear P/W. So my advise? IF he gets elected to Regional Office, at that time you all can make the decision to get the poly/wool. Until then, I wouldn't waste the money.

Yes, it was true, an adult could earn Eagle, and many did. How? Well, for several decades, all you needed to earn Eagle Scout was merit badges. Stuff like doing a service project, holding a leadership position only came in the 60s or so. Originally, Star, Life, and Eagle were just 'super merit badges' you got for getting several merit badges. Originally, you got 21 merit badges, you got Eagle. Later they put required merit badges in place. Originally, only First Class Scouts were allowed to earn merit badges. All adults were automatically first class scouts, so could earn merit badges. It was felt that if adults earned them, they would understand them better and be able to teach the scouts. By the 1950s this was discouraged, tho allowed in some councils. In the 1960s is when they put in place requirements like holding a troop leadership position and later an upper age limit which ended this.

Looking at it, its a green poplin jacket, not a wool jac-shirt. As to whether or not it was for Explorers, while many think in terms of red=boy scouts, green= explorers (now Venturers), orginally it was the other way around in terms of the garter tabs, jackets, and background color on service stars. red jac-shirts were for explorers, green jac-shirts for boy scouts, etc. AFAIK, this poplin jacket was for Boy Scouts, as Explorer had the red one. Later they dropped the green jac-shirts & poplin jackets for red ones for both Explorers and Boy Scouts. The nylon jackets came later. I got a red poplin jacket as a boy scout in 1981. AFAIK, no other color of the poplin jacket existed then.

The same knot is worn for all the religious awards. So its a little incorrect to speak of a "Sikh religious knot". I am not aware of a religious award for Sikhs. Such an award would not be created by the BSA, but would need to be created by the religious body. There would need to be a national sikh organization, they would need to charter units (I've heard there is a minimum needed), get a representative on the Religious Relationships Committee (which can only happen if they are chartering units), create an award within the guidelines of all the others, get it approved, and off you go.

"Guffaw!! That's hysterical, eh? There's a whole cottage industry in spoof patches, and thank goodness most scouting adults have a sense of humor and try not to take ourselves too seriously." So? Most don't wear these things. I don't think many have a problem with spoof patches. I think many would if you start wearing them.

As to the tenting issue, I can only add this. At the National OA Conference, people are housed in one of 4 groups (and bathroom/showers marked as such): * Under 18 boys * Boys 18-21 * Adult males (ie, over 21) * Adult females

Council venturing Youth Cabinet or Venturing Officers Association or Teen Leader Council. All different names for the same thing. Get a copy of the latest edition of "Here's Venturing: A Guide to Implementing Venturing in a District and Council" #33466A. Has a whole chapter on VOAs, include sample bylaws, etc. Venturing Roundtables, UNLIKE Cub Scout or Boy Scout RT, are to be oriented to BOTH Adults and Crew leaders. There is a whole book on the topic: "Venturing Roundtable Guide" #34342. We do it quartlerly, have adult/youth breakouts, and get a decent showing. Key is to make sure that 1) the crews know its happening, and 2) they have a reason to come! Regarding your poor turn out at Venturing events. Uh, who is 'offering' the event? Make sure that the Venturers have a BIG say in the event in terms of planning, promotion, etc. If its just the adults doing what they think the kids want, you may not get a good turn out. If ifs the kids planning it out (get kids from around the council involved, rather then just one crew), you'll have a better turn out. Also, down here we see crews going to Venturing events in other councils all the time!! Check out other council Venturing events, and promote yours in other councils. Many times there aren't enought crews in a council to make things as successful as a Boy Scout Camporee, so get crews outside your council.

If he's not interested in being an ASM (his only option to stay with his troop), get him into a Venturing Crew.

You wear a trained strip if you have recieved the appropriate training for your position. Please note, that if you change your position and have not had the training, you can't wear the trained strip. And if you don't have a position, you don't wear it, either. (I see a lot of kid who don't have a position, but still wear the trained patch). I believe the literature is clear that if you receive training for your position at your troop's Troop Leader Training course, that suffices. For OA Reps, the lodge provides this training, not the troop, either just for the OA Reps or at LLD. An intro session is not enough, you must go to the TLT course. Or NYLT.

"To get back to my original question, sifting through the responses, I gather that no remembers there ever being an absolute age requirement for OA, and that the 14 years of age requirement that I remember from 30 years ago (or think I remember) was imposed (probably arbitrarily and improperly) by the adult troop leaders at the time." I have a collection of OA Handbooks. While I did research thru them regarding OA election rules for Explorers, I've not looked at them in regards to any age requirements. Certainly, AFAIK, none have existed since the 70s.

All- I wrote a Venturing Uniform FAQ that is available on-line at several sources, including the USScouting Website. Recommend it be read. The rules are: * Crews determine what, if anything is there uniform. (t-shirt, polos, whatever), HOWEVER: * the tan BSA uniform is NOT to be worn by Venturers. The green venturing loops are NOT to be worn on the tan shirt. There is NOTHING that a dual-registered scout can wear on his uniform to indicate he is a Venturer, unless is the Venturing awards. * the green BSA uniform is an obtion for those involved in Venturing who want to (or need to) wear a BSA uniform. If you are at an event which requires a BSA uniform (NOAC, OA events, National Jamboree, World Jamboree), the green Venturing shirt is what you need to wear. You MUST follow all BSA insignia rules regard the green Venturing shirt, btw.

"BSA has been publicly criticized for its position of not admitting younger girls -- but those same critics don't say anything about GSUSA's opposition to BSA admitting younger girls. " "I just wonder why GSUSA is let off the hook by those who complain about BSA? " Gee. Its very simple. (I asked this question on a prior version of this sort of forum). You see, girls are a 'protected class'. Boys aren't. So its NOT ok to discriminate against girls for being girls (ie, by not letting them join the Boy Scouts, or having schools/programs they can't attend/join/etc); but its IS ok to discriminate against boys for being boys (ie, by not allowing them to join Girl Scouts, or having school/programs they can't attend/join/etc). This is why boys-only schools are EVIL, whereas girls-only school are GOOD. Boy can't be allowed to have boys-only programs, they MUST be in co-ed programs; however, girls should be allowed girls-only programs because there they can excel WITHOUT boys. See, its all perfectly logical and fair. Why can't you understand that?

"Except for some PBS programs, TV is pretty bad and most prime time programs are not fit for family viewing. " Oh? You have whole channels devoted to family/kids programming (Disney, ABC-Family, Nickelodean, etc), TVLand shows a lot of old shows that are good, many good non-fiction shows on channels like Animal Planet, Discovery, TLC, History, A&E, etc.

Interesting. In many countries, the Boy Scout Association has gone co-ed. In several others, the Boy Scout & Girl Scout Associations merged. there are still many Girl Guide/Girl Scout associations in countries in which their Boy Scout Associations have gone co-ed. "I thought it was interesting that this article points out that GSP opposes the introduction of girls into BSP. I suspect that GSUSA also opposes girls in BSA." "Yet when people bash BSA for holding that view, they never mention that GSUSA also opposes the introduction of girls into BSA. " My understanding of the situation, based in part on things I have been told by people who appear to be in the know. Around 1969 or so, the BSA made overtures to both Girl Scouts and Camp Fire Girls to merge with them. As part of this, they apparently tried out co-ed units, and this was the period in which Explorer Posts were allowed to have Girl Scouts & C F Girls as 'participants'. Things didn't work out, and the BSA took Exploring co-ed in 1971. Apparently, the GSUSA wasn't too happy, as most of their older girls went over to Exploring (which continues today with many going to Venturing). The GSUSA were able to get an 'agreement' with the BSA to NOT take their Boy Scout or Cub Scout programs co-ed. And this is apparently one of the reasons they haven't, despite presure to do so. Interesting, around 1975 Camp Fire went co-ed. But as this program is much smaller then either Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, I guess that didn't matter.

"All leaders, including Cub leaders, are required to have all training completed for their current position before they can attend WB. So they should have all been through NLE." Yes, they should have. "Now - tell me how knowing about Venturing, which some of these leaders won't see for 7 or 8 years, is going to help them run a den or pack? Yes, the OA helps our with Crossover ceremonies, but you don't have to know anything about the selection process or other details to request their help." You don't get what I'm saying. I don't expect them to be experts about this programs. But they should have HEARD of them. Their reaction shouldn't be "what's OA/Venturing? I've never heard of those programs?". "I know leaders who have been in Boy Scouting for many years, but don't have the first clue about Cub Scouts. Should they be prevented from attending WB because they aren't familiar with the Tiger program?" Did I say they should be prevented? No. I said they should have been involved in scouting a couple of years, and that during that time they should have been exposed (thru reading Scouting magazine, going to district/council events, etc) to what exists in scouting. But too many leaders seem to put on blinders to anything but their own program. I haven't been involved in Cub Scouts since I was a cub myself, but at least I am reasonably familiar with the program. Again, depends on what you mean by 'familiar'. I would hope they have heard of Tiger Cubs and know its the younger program in Cub Scouts. It shouldn't be "what are Tigers?" "I think this might all be much ado about nothing. It's not like Cub leaders are beating down the doors to attend WB. It's hard enough to get them to attend NLE and Leader Specific! Only two from our Pack have ever attended WB - me and my ACM. My thoughts are that if you want an improved Cub program, encourage Cub leaders to attend WB." In my area, most WB courses mainly have Cub Scout and Boy Scout leaders, with a smattering of Venturing leaders. We don't have a problem with getting Cub leaders to come. Unfortunately, it seems like many of the Cub leaders are about to move over to Boy Scouts.

"The powerpoints each TG uses at the breakouts in the first weekend. Consider, seriously consider, not using the BSA Woodbadge background with white print, rather using black lettering on a plain white background. " "I found the Woodbadge powerpoint slide master background very distracting and hard to read. I found the TG copy (black on white) far easier to read. " On my course, we (TGs) had little flip books to show print outs of the slides. They were primarily black print on white background.

Am confused by what is being referred to as 'dual registered'. I've only heard it referred to as: * A youth who is dual registered in more then one unit (troop & crew or crew & ship or 2 crews). * A Venturing unit that is dual registered as both a Venturing Crew and a Sea Scout Ship. But two separate units that are somehow 'tied together' and being referred to as 'dual registered' doesn't make since. Also, being dual registered doesn't affect the numbers. Someone who is dual registered only counts once, because they have the same BSA ID. No idea about a dual registered unit. While this may make it appear as there are more units, it doesn't affect the membership numbers.

"I'm not worried about Cub Scout Leaders not knowing much about Jamborees or OA or Venturing - why should they? It is going to be a few years before they ever see it. I don't see how having or not having that knowledge is going to make any difference in how they run their unit." Why should a Cub Scout Leader know about these? Well, first off, if that Cub Scout leader has gone thru New Leader Essentials, they should have been introduced to Venturing. Also, if your local Lodge contacts you about helping out your Pack going camping, as part of the OA's role in this area, you will know what that's about. (yes, really, the OA is supposed to help in Cub Camping and Webelos transitions). Also, if a local Venturing Crew contact you about helping our your Pack or a Venturer wants to come and do a presentation to met one of their requirements, you'll know what that's about. NO scout leader should have blinders on and be oblivious to the rest of the scout program. That one of the reasons for NLE. And if they've been in scouting long enough, and read their Scouting magazine, etc, they should have heard of these things.

"I think it should be for Boy Scout leaders only, they HAD a cub leader WB until the new program came out." I answered this on another thread, but, NO, there was NEVER a 'cub leader WB'. What we had before 21st Century WB was: * Boy Scout Leader WB * Cub Scout Trainer WB (note: for trainers, not cub pack leaders) * Varsity Scout WB * Sea Badge (still exists) * Explorer Leader Institute (NOT a National course, and only out west). Before 21CWB, Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders (previously it would be Explorer leaders) were denied WB or a course of that caliber. Cub Scout Trainer WB was a region-level course aimed ONLY at council/district trainer of Cub Scout leaders. Now, I do have to agree that too many coming into the courses are not ready for it. I've felt that leaders should be going to WB in their 2nd or third year. Enought time that they've gotten Basic Training under their belt and time to put this into practice, been exposed to scouting, etc. But not too long that the leader has too many bad habits/ideas that will need to be corrected by WB. There are too many cub scout leaders coming in who are 'in transition'. That is, they are at the end of their time as a Cub Scout leader, and about to move over to Boy Scouts (because their son is). These people should really wait until they've crossed over, got basic training as Boy Scout leaders, put it into practice, THEN go to WB. If a Cub Scout leader has a year or two under the belt and is going to continue as a cub scout leader, fine, go to WB. Its also tiresome that some many leaders coming into WB are ignorant of a lot of stuff in scouting. That is, they have no idea of what is Jamboree, OA, Venturing, etc. Not that they are experts in these, but they haven't even heard of them! If they've been in scouting long enough, they should have been exposed to these things.

"Then there are the temporary or changing patches. My boys are into the OA. It seems everytime they go to an OA event they come back with a new pocket patch." In my area, most OA event patches are issues with button loops, so there is no need to sew them down. You can get plastic patch holders in various sizes/shapes to deal with changing out temporary insignia easily. Other patches (like position patches) shouldn't be changing that often.

"I think trying to do Wood Badge to first or second year Cub leaders is rediculous. I know a scoutmaster who has beads, but no clue. Maybe open it up to adult Boy Scout leaders in their 3rd year or service instead the old 10 year requirement." I have to agree. I don't know if there was a 10 year requirement, but in the old days you had to have quite a bit of experience before you can go. I think the BSA pushes people into WB too soon. My feeling is that a scouters should be going to WB during their second year. That way they have both basic training under their belt AND experience as a scout leader. "Perhaps there should be more emphasis on advanced SKILLS training, and less management. Maybe the skills training could be offered more frequently so more could attend. May offer an camp-o-ree for adults and have scouts judge." But scouters need the leadership/management training. If not in WB, where? As to skills, different skills are needed for different programs. Since WB is now for all programs, skills had to move elsewhere, such as Powder Horn, IOLS, etc. "They did have Cub Leader Wood Badge, right? " No. No such course existed. What they did have was Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge. It was for those who would go back to their councils and train Cub Scout leaders. But Cub Scout leaders were denied WB. Also, Explorer Leaders were denied it as well. Out west they developed Explorer Leader Institute. Sea Scout leaders created Sea Badge for the same reasons. The problem is that by taking Boy Scout Leader WB, Cub Scout Trainer WB, ELI, Varsity Scout WB and merge them into a single '21st Century WB' is that by having a single WB for all programs is that you lose a lot of the program-specific information. This is one of the reasons why Sea Badge continues to exist and is so important to Sea Scouts. And why Powder Horn has become such an important program to promote/training Venturing leaders. Personally I've always felt they should have created a 'core WB' program, then deliver it in program specific formats for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing leaders. This way all leaders can go to WB and not be denied, plus they can get both leadership and skills needed for their program.

"I can't speak to Venturing since I have little knowledge of that program." Keep in mind that 1) Venturing is a co-ed program and 2) it for 14-21 youth. These are older kids that 10yo Webelos, or 11-13yo Boy Scouts needing male role models. While not every Venturing crew is an outdoor crew, many who are have female advisors who are great outdoorwomen.

"emb021 "Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys. Gonzo: I think you're splitting hairs over semantics, of course venture patrols are boy scout patrols and venture crews are co-ed. I know they must have co-ed adult presence. I've never been in one, so I don't know crew operations, advancement (specific to venture crew) etc." I am not splitting hairs about semantics. You are confusing the names of two different programs with different (but similiar) names. Venture and Venturing are not interchangable terms. Venture is a boy scout program. (the venture patrol) VenturING is a separate program for youth 14-21. There is NO SUCH THING as a "Venture Crew". It is a Venturing Crew. This confusing of terms causes those of us in Venturing a lot of problems. We have people thinking that a 'Venture patrol' is just "venturing in a troop", and leads to nonsense like Venture Patrol members wearing the forest green Venturing uniform and thinking they can earn Venturing awards.