emb021

I, too, am also confused by the question. Around here, while a persons complete ticket (or everything they did) is not usually promoted or made public, certain some items are known. Many times if a person working their ticket does something that is for their ticket (organizing an event, getting something done at camp, etc), it is known that it was done for WB. Also, around here its come that if you ARE working your ticket, telling people that you are trying to do X for your ticket, usually gets more cooperation in getting it done.

"I replied that this is what I have seen on numerous scout websites (domestic and foreign) and that I have never seen any direct "regulation" prohibiting it. Now, this gentleman is definitely not a UP'er (and I'm not talking Michigan, either.)" Some things to keep in mind. * Just because others do something, doesn't make it correct to do so. * When it comes to 'uniform regs', the Insignia guide by and larges follows the concept of dealing with who can wear what in what location on the uniform. Pretty much if you are not 'listed' as one of the people who can wear an item, or you are not wearing it in the location indicated, then you're not following the 'regs'. There is very little of 'you can't do X' in the regs. Sashbacks on the OA sash, wearing sashes on the belts, etc, are amoung the *very* rare exceptions. * The red berets were rolled out in the early 70s and dropped as an option when the current uniform shirts were rolled out. The shirts at the time the red beret was around had no epaulets. And as the red beret was no long an available option for wearing with the new tan shirts with epaultes, no policy, one way or another, was put forth as to the acceptability of wearing the red berets under the loops. IF the red berets had been still available when the shirts were, I am sure National would have said if it was ok or not. My own take would be not to wear them under the epaulets. But that's me. I personally think its too 'militant' a look, and would avoid it.

"I often think that when we do these kinds of things we need to keep the family in mind. Remember that Scouting was only a part of the deceased life. There may be other children in the family that are not in Scouting, think of their feelings when the wake or service is overwhelmed by Scouts and Scouter's. Then there is the extended family, most likely they knew the deceased as Joe or Mike, not as Mr. Scouter. " "Ask the family for permission, and do only what you've discussed with them." I guess it depends on the area. Around here, most funerals for scouters that have any 'scouting presence' other then a token few, its for those people who were very involved and the family was quite aware of their involvement. The sort were you have scouts as part of a color guard or even pallbearers.

Why not contact your council office? They should know who of the local scouts/scouters are going to the WJ.

"Finally, I guess its a little strange to me that an organization that exists because of volunteers, be rather cavilear toward them." This is not a problem that is in any way unique to the BSA. I am and have been involved in other volunteer groups that have had the same problems with attracting and keeping volunteers. So I've seen it all: * offers of help being ignored * volunteer burn out because they are overwelmed (in part because there aren't enought volunteers) * volunteers turned off or away due to cliquishness of other volunteers * lack of appreciation by paid staff and other volunteers etc.etc.

"I just saw all of those this morning. Where did the Trustworthy and Helpful ones come from?" BSA National. they've been around for several years and shown on tv, etc.

Maybe this story will help. Back in the early 90s, when I first got on-line, one of the things I did was join Scouts-L. One day I made the mistake of refering to the Girl Scouts as "GSA". A simple mistake, but which caused several people to 'jump' on me and point out that the term is GSUSA. Now, how should I have reacted? Should I have complained that they are only interested in terminology? (an prehaps quite in a huff?) No. Should I have trotted out the Scout Law to somehow justify my mistake? No. Should I have complained that in my area everyone called them that, so that makes it ok? No. I was in the wrong. I used the wrong term, and it was pointed out to me. While it may have been done a little stronger then necessary, in and of itself, pointing out the error was neither rude nor 'un-Scout-like'. Guess what? I never make the mistake to use the term GSA. I know the correct term is GSUSA, and that's what I use. End of story.

The problem is that too many people don't know the correct terms and don't use them. We are not talking the occasional slip of the tongue. We are talking about the constant wrong terms used on council website, that then progress to units and members then using the wrong terms. Using the wrong terms is little different then mispronouncing peoples names. I have several coworkers who have difficult to pronounce names. Should they ignore the fact that I mess up? No, its rude of me not to get it right. Should I get bent out of shape because someone dares to correct my mispronunciation of their name? No, its again its rude of me not to get it right. The people who need to 'lighten up' are those who get upset when someone points out a clear error. There is a reason the BSA has a "Language of Scouting" work which points out the correct terms.

What is scouting? Its a program created by this guy named Baden-Powell. Yes, he took ideas from other people. Yes, others have created programs kinda like scouting, but scouting is the program HE created. Yes, scouting is used in countries around the world. Yes, there are differences in those programs, but are those differences in the fundamentals of their programs or other elements. For me, if you change the fundamentals, its no longer scouting. Here are the basics of scouting, for me. Scouting is an outdoor-based character building/development and citizenship training program for youth, BUT delivered in such a way that is appealing for youth. It has 3 Fundamental Principles: * Duty to God (ie YOUR religious duty, whatever YOUR religion is) * Duty to Others (including your government) * Duty to Self It has certain elements: * A Promise (Oath) and Law * Learn by doing * Patrol system * Symbolic Framework (scout emblem, etc) * Personal Progression (achievement awards, etc) * Nature (out of doors, camping, environment, etc) * Adult Support (scout leaders, advisors, etc) A uniform is also important as a way to put everyone on equal footing (same uniform for all, so no idea of economic disparity), and as a way to show your accomplishments.

jblake47- We do not have Venture Scouts or Venture Crews in the BSA. We have Venturers in Venturing Crews. Please use the correct terms. "With Venture Scouts (sic), they all do basically different things. " No they don't. There are many different kinds of crews out there, but many Venturers like and do many of the same things. You CAN find commonality of interesting amoung Venturers and have great Venturing events. There are many I know of in my area that are very successful. "To develop a probram for the Tigers, Cubs and Scouts is a no brainer, but how does one design a program to meet the diversity of Venture Scouts? Well, they probably can't, so why try? " No true. Its being done and being done successfully. Heck, there have been articles in Scouting about succcessful Venturing events. "High Adventure crews might be able to pull off an event here or there together, but I'm a Venture Crew Advisor for an American History crew and we are one of mayby 2 or three such crews in the entirety of the United States. We pull youth from different councils, not just different cities or districts. There is nothing that the Council is going to provide for us that will at all interest any involvement with in this crew. We're talking apples and oranges here, big time." What you are doing is narrowing your focus so much that you can't find enough stuff that would interest most crews. Here are some of the things I've seen done at successful Venturing events. Are these things that the Venturers in your Crew would be interested in doing? * volleyball * swim competition * canoeing/rowing/sailing * Cope (low or high) * shooting (rifles, shotguns, handguns) * ropes * tug of war * GPS/geocaching

"Look at the National info on Powderhorn and youll see it focuses on the Venturing Program. Powdeerhorn was around long before the Venturing Program was instituted. Yes a SM can put SOME of these skills to use in the BS program but back in the late 60s and early 70s the Powderhorn course was for SM/ASM to learn and hone outdoor skills." I don't know the basis for your 'information', but its incorrect. Powder Horn from day one was a National Venturing Course. There was NO National course before that called 'powder horn'. What you may be thinking of was probably a locally created course. I have been researching Boy Scout and senior scouting training courses, and have no idea what course you are speaking of. Powder Horn was created by Donna and Larry Cunningham and rolled out at Philmont in 1999 after an experimental course was run in 1998. I have a page devoted to PH and its history at my Senior Scouting History website.

"I admit I dont know much about the Venture program I have been out of Scouts for 17 years. Missed every day though." Please keep in mind that Venture and Venturing are two separate programs. Venture is an opional program for Boy Scout Troops for their boys over 13. Venturing is the co-ed program for 14-20 youth. Please don't confuse them. "I dont even think there is a Venture crew in my area." They are Venturing Crews, not Venture Crews. "Did Ventures replace Explorers?" Venturing sort of replaced Explorers. Exploring was split in 1989, and all the career-oriented Posts were moved (along with the Exploring name) to Learning for Life. All the non-career oriented posts (high adventure, outdoors, sports, art/hobbies, youth ministries, along with Sea Scouts) became the new Venturing program. "Your right Ventures and Boy Scouts probably wouldnt mix company well." Members of Venturing are called Venturers.

"Seems like they rewrite the thing from scratch every 5-7 years." Beavah makes a good point about GSUSA. Despite the changes over the years (yes, they have occured), Eagle Scout has remainded as the highest Boy Scout award. Whereas the Girl Scouts have renamed their highest award 4-5 times. Today its the Gold Award, but that's only been so since the, what, 80s?

"Red berets never stopped being part of the uniform? Why aren't they included in the uniform guide or sold by the National Supply? I know older Scouter who still use the 50s/60s style over seas cap so they can cover for flag presentation and pledge. These are no longer sold either the baseball type cap is the latest head gear." They are no longer sold, nothing more. Because they are no longer sold, they aren't shown in the Insignia Guide. But you aren't barred from wearing them, unlike the green shirt for boy scouts. "I'm with Beavah on this one, I've got real issues to attend to and the wearing of green shirts not having been stopped back in the 80's is not that big a deal. " the forest green shirts are only for Venturing people to wear. Boy Scouts have no business wearing them. As I pointed out, which I guess you still don't understand, is that while this was allowed at one time, this practice ENDED. And this troop needs to respect that and the fact that the green uniform below to Venturing, not them.

Yawn. Old news. The GSUSA has been making changes, not all have been good. Someone mentioned their changes in their Oath. I can tell you they've been critized by scout leaders in other countries for doing this. Their only change now is the split the Senior Girl Scouts in half, with the 16/17 year olds now "Girl Scout Ambassadors". About 3-4 years ago, they rolled out "Studio 2B", which seems just a copy of the BSA's Explorer program from the 70s & 80s. I've heard NOTHING good about this program, and many girls didn't want it to replace the Junior/Senior programs (it was never clear if it was a separate program or a replacement program). Its also not clear with the new changes if Studio 2B will continue. I also find it interesting that many girls who want to do 'scouting stuff' seem to come over to Venturing. I guess they aren't finding scouting in the Girl Scouts. BTW, the BSA ALSO tried to be 'relavent'. This was back in the early 70s when they rolled out the 'urban emphasis' scouting changes. It was a disaster!!! Numbers dropped, etc. Thanks to the work of people like Green Bar Bill, who brough back traditional scouting via "ALL OUT FOR SCOUTING" and similiar programs and changes, such as a new Handbook, most of the program changes were gotten rid of by the late 70s/early 80s, tho it wasn't until the late 80s that we got rid of the last few ones. Scouters STILL take about this! Overseas, the British Scout Association made radical changes in the 70s (the so-called "Advanced Party Report"). This lead to many scouters leaving and forming the B-P Scout Association in that country in many others, to remain true to the scouting program that B-P created.

"It is not their tenure which they feel extends them the right but the fact that once it's part of the official uniform it's part of the official uniform. Some Troop still use the red berets, you find pictures of them popping up in Boy's Life. Why not the old Leadership Corps green shirts?" Different issues. red berets never stopped being part of the official uniform. However, use of the green shirts by Leadership Corps ENDED in 1979. In other words, they STOPPED being part of the official uniform for Leadership Corps. Green shirts were NO LONGER a uniform option for Leadership Corps. Furthermore, Leadership Corps ENDED as a program in 1989. They stopped existing as part of the official Boy Scout program. Its one thing to have a boy wear a uniform part or patch that is just an older version of what exists today (pants, shirt, hat, patch). Its another to wear a uniform part whose use was STOPPED/ENDED, or for a program that STOPPED/ENDED.

"Anyone remember when Powder Horn was an advanced outdoor training beyond WB and intended for those who wanted to provide a more High Adventure program." Was? Why the past tense? Powder Horn is what it always has been: a high adventure resource course mainly for venturing leaders, but also boy scout leaders. Others may have tried to envision it as some kind of 'advanced outdoor training beyond WB', but I don't believe that was the original intention.

"Transitioning from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts to Venturing, we may believe the Venturing Leaders Manual is written just for the Advisor(s). I would say that is a half truth. The Venturing Leaders Manual is meant for both the Advisor(s) and the Crew Officers. The Crew Officers should break open this manual and read it, front to back." Crew 21 Adv makes a good point here that many may not get. Its "Venturing Leaders Manual" NOT "Venturing Advisors Manual". So its for ALL Venturing Leaders, both youth and adult!

"I'm newly associated with a troop which has been continually chartered for 95 years. They have some traditions which go back quite a way. One of the things they do is have all the boys above First Class wear the green Venturing shirt. They have found over the years that this aids in retention of older boys. My question is do you think this is one of the "authority" issues which the local unit/CO have the "authority" to decide?" As someone else pointed out, they have no authority to do this. I don't care if they've been chartered 95 minutes or 95 years. They probably got the idea from the times when Explorer Crews within the troops could wear the green Explorer uniforms, and later when Leadership Corps members could wear the green shirt (but with a "Scouts BSA" strip) back in the 70s. However, Explorer Crews in troops ended in 1959. Use of green shirts by Leadership Corps ended in 1979, and Leadership Corps were dropped in 1989. So they need to get with the program. Sadly, a lot of Venture Patrols think they can wear the green uniform. If they bothered to look, they would see that the uniforms says "Venturing, BSA". If you're not part of Venturing, you have no business wearing the green shirts. A better aid to 'retain' the boys, is to form a separate Venturing Crew and have the older boys transfer to it.

"I don't think the "Sea Base Conch Shell" is still in use. " Oh? Last time I was down at the Sea Base (early this year), I thought they were still selling them. "Our troop just went there and received a "shark" patch instead. Anyone have any info on this? " Yeah. See the Insignia Guide. The Philmont Bull, Northern Tier Loon, and Sea Base Conch Shell or Sea Base Shark, all get worn on the red jac-shirt in the same location: above the left pocket, near the shoulder seam. You only wear one.

"this is the first I have heard of SALT or Delivering the Venturing Program and cant seem to find much information on the internet about these." Really? Then you are looking in the wrong place. Here is the brochure on the Venturing courses at PTC: http://www.scouting.org/venturing/training/courses.pdf If you are a Sea Scout leader, I would recommend Sea Badge or SALT before the others. Never having gone to SALT, I can't compare it to Sea Badge. You'll have to ask leaders who have been to both to recommend on or the other. Plus SALT has 2 Tracks. Delivering the Venturing program is a 'catch all' training event, that contains stuff from several of the weeklong Venturing courses. I did the first one they offered at the Sea Base. As noted in the brochure, it covers everything: advancement, program, training, council/district support, etc. But you only spend one day or so on a topic, as opposed to a whole week.

First off, it sounds like you don't have much good local sources for Venturing information. I recommend you use this resource and join the Venturinglist Yahoo Group. Consider going to a training course at PTC as well. Or look to take Powder Horn. Here is an overview of Venturing youth training. The first is the Crew Officer Orientation. This is an on-line training session, that is available on the National site (there are some who have put this on CD, unofficially). http://www.scouting.org/venturing/training/coo/index.html Next is the Crew Office Seminar. This is outlined in the Venturing Leader Manual. There is, sadly, no other materials other then what you might find informally or unofficial (such as on the USScouting Service website). This is typically done in crew by the crew leadership. I have never heard of this having to be done by a council/district person, other then with a very new crew. NO, there is no materials on this beyond what is in the VLM. Next is the Venturing Leadership Skills Course. Unlike most leadership courses, this is intended for the entire crew, and ideally should be done by the crew itself. However, in some areas this is done at the council or district levels. Next is Kodiak, which is done in a high adventure forum over a week or 2 weekends. I recommend that before you attempt to do this course that you either go thru another Kodiak course yourself, or go thru the Course Director Course for it. Finally, there is Kodiak X, a weekend follow up course to Kodiak, done by your council or district. Hope this helps.

How much the unit pays vs. how much the participant pays (youth or adult) is going to depend greatly as to how much money the unit has (usually do to fundraising). If your unit is a great fundraiser, there is more money to pay for stuff. Then you have to decide where the money goes, etc. Ideally, unit funds should go to things like equipment (tents, group camping gear, etc), and big-ticket items like covering part of the cost of trips like Philmont, etc. Some troops may cover the entire cost of summer camp for all the scouts, or may only cover some of the cost, or offer 'camperships' for those boys in financial need. EVERYONE should have to pay SOMETHING for trips/events. This ensure they understand the value. Don't give anyone a free ride. Adults (to tie in with another thread), should be paying their fair share. If adults are helping to fundraise, they should be covered the same as the youth, but should still pay something. If you have to raise what you charge the boys to cover for the adults, I think that's wrong. (in fact, in many scouting events, the adults may MORE then the youth, to keep THEIR costs lower. Ex: Jamborees, etc) For adult training events, you can cover all or some of the costs, IF they complete the course. (ie, for WB, they must complete their ticket to get reimbursed). Don't pay upfront, otherwise if something happens and they don't attend, you're not out the money.

My experiences are similiar to acco40's. A school I attended had a group of dorm buildings built in the 70s. What was annoying was that all were about 2-3 stories high, when they should have been built about 5-6 stories high. The school has now been building new dorms, and in the process has been tearing down the old. (which I hate. build it right in the first place, not crappy so you have to later tear down and rebuild). Out of the 8 or so old dorms, only one is left standing. Another school I attended had built there dorms back in the 50s. Still being used, but then they built them better then.

They didn't start putting out Insignia Guides until the 60s. As to the blue stars. I think someone decided to copy the idea of the 'blue star flags' indicating someone in the service that was popular in WWII. (if the person died in service, the blue star was replaced by a gold star). Here is more info on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_flag