emb021

"Sorry, I don't know alot about venture, I know it's co-ed." Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys. Venturing, however, is the BSA's co-ed program for youth 14-21. Many (but not all) Venturing Crews are outdoor crews, and do a lot of camping and high adventure activities. So there are many female Venturers and female Venturing adults who are avid outdoors people. There are a few that could run circles around some Eagle Scouts. I find many girls who are wanting a real scouting experience (ie camping, outdoors, etc) and not finding it in Girl Scouts are coming over to Venturing to find it. Same is true of many adult females. I have to disagree with Kudu. While, yes, not every woman is suitable to being a Boy Scout Troop leader, my experience is that those who have stepped up to being Scoutmasters or Assistants are quite suited to it.

"Emb - when dealing with a young crew that has not gone through VLSC before, would you find it acceptable for the youth to choose an area most interesting to them, learn it, then present it to the rest of the crew at vlsc? Or do you think it would be better to find a crew who has experience with VLSC and and see if they can jump in with them? " In some areas, this is why districts/councils do VLSC, because many crews are too small or are too new to have gone thru it. Personally, these are my preferences in terms of trainers. 1. Youth trainers who have themselves gone thru VLSC 2. Adult trainers 3. Youth trainers who have not themselves gone thru VLSC Why do I say that? Because I feel that youth need to experience VLSC as a participant before being a trainer. Most youth don't have a lot of experience as presenters/trainers, and giving a session 'cold' (ie, never seeing it/experiences it) is much harder for a youth then an adult. Since your crew is so smaller, I would recommend you either get with another crew who have gone thru VLSC, or see if you can get some of your youth to join another district/council's VLSC.

"Leave it to Weird Al to bring out some humor on the topic." Even better. Go to his myspace page and see the video for Don't Download This Song at www.myspace.com/weirdal

There are many ways for staff and participants to indicate their WB patrol then wearing the patrol medallion on their right sleeve. I know of: * glueing it on the back of your leather WB nametag (as John in KC mentioned) * special WB nametags- I've seen them that include your WB totem. Also, there is a on-line "Quartermaster Store" that sells very nice wooden hanging name tags that you can get with your WB totem. these are laser engraved. * Put them in your hat. I've seen pins of WB totems. One patrol on my course went out an got all their hats with their totem embroidered on the side. very nice. * walking sticks. if this is something that is used in your area, I've seen people with walking sticks that include their WB totem, either carved at the top, or put elsewhere on the stick.

"In his list of uniform mistakes, emb021 lists the following: "6. CSPs (proliferation of CPS-shaped patches worn in place of the CSP)". "Not sure what is meant here. Any council shoulder flap (CSP) is valid for uniform wear as long as it is (1) your own current council, (2) was actually issued by the council, and (3) is one of the four approved shapes. Importantly, CSPs do not become invalid once a council issues a new design. Many councils have multiple designs in circulation simultaneously. Some of these are commemorative (e.g., council anniversary), are issued for special activities (e.g, philmont trek), or special events (e.g., annual Friends of Scouting campaign). However, ALL such special CSPs are valid for uniform wear. " No, not all special CSP are valid for uniform wear. Just because they are issued by a council doesn't make them a CSP. They must be approved by your SE to be a CSP. My home council issued a FOS CSP-shaped patch. With a button loop. So, obviously, the intent was that they were NOT be to worn as a CSP. There is a reason that in the patch collecting world, these patches are called SAPs, and not CSP. (SAP= shoulder activity patch, not a CSP, but a CSP-shaped activity patch) The thing is more of a philisophical issue. The purpose of CSPs is to provide a single item that all in the council will wear, instead of the old proliferation of hundreds of community strips. Have CSP-shaped patches that only certain people can get (Commissioners, WBers, Eagle Scouts, FOS donators, those who attend Philmont, etc), violates this. I don't have a problem with councils issuing them. I do not feel that they should be worn on the uniform. I know you are a commissioner or Eagle Scout due to the appropriate insignia. I don't need a CSP to tell me that.

"I noticed that none of staff wore their appropiate Patrol patch. When I question the Patrol Guide I was told that the Cadre was inform the wearing of the Patrol pacth of their Woodbadge patrol was wrong, so everyone removed theirs." I didn't quite address this, but staff on a WB course, either on the current one or the previous Boy Scout Leader WB, should never have been wearing their patrol patch. I have no idea why you would expect them to be. When the staff were wearing stripped uniforms, it would have been inappropriate to wear patrol patches, as the staff (not 'cadre') are filling adult positions and certain non-patrol youth positions (SPL, ASPL, Scribe, QM, etc) in the Wood Badge Troop.

"Also, don't forget that the OA is not the universal BSA honor society. There is Mic-o-say and other programs in some areas of the country. BSA and OA are two separate entities and a troop can certainly operate without involvement in the OA." Sorry, but this is incorrect. The OA is Scouting's National Honor Society. It has been an official part of the BSA since the 1930s, and THE honor/camping society since the 1940s. The BSA and the OA are NOT separate entities. The OA is as much a part of the BSA as the Cub Scout Program or Boy Scout Program. In some council they have other groups in addition to the OA. That was a local council decision. There are 2 councils that do not have the OA (one uses Tribe of Tahquitz, the other Tribe of Mic-O-Say). Since National's decision several years ago to declare the OA to be the one and only National Honor Society of scouting, I have no idea how this affects those 2 councils. But regardless, the exists of these other groups does not diminish the purpose and place of the OA. While a troop might decide 'not to do OA', they may get a visit from their DE or a call from the council scout exec. I know that this is being done in one council I am involved with, because of certain troops who, for mainly petty reasons, have decided to 'not do OA'.

All- Adults do not wear patrol medallions. Those are youth insignia. During a WB course, it is ok for WB patrol members to wear their patrol medallion pined to their uniform. They should not, however, sew the patrol medallion on to their uniform. Back in the 'old days' of WB, both staff and participants were required to strip their uniform to the bare essentials. The intention was to make it clear that everyone was part of the WB Troop, and put everyone on a level field (those with 3 rows of knots wouldn't intimidate those with none, etc). In the 1980s and 1990s, this meant that everyone on the BS WB course wore the tan uniform with: *red loops *World crest *council strip *american flag *Troop 1 patch. *Wood Badge patrol medallion *appropriate WB neckerchief & slide (participant or WB) *leather WB name tag hanging from right pocket flap Patricipants would pin their WB office patch on (pinned because this would change each day). Staff would wear the appropriate office patch sewn on. When Wood Badge for the 21st Century was rolled out, participants no longer had to strip their uniform. They were expected to come in their normal uniform. WB patrol medallions & office patches would be pinned on. Staff, however, still wore stripped uniforms. In 2005, the WB Staff Guide was updated, and staff now no longer wear stripped uniforms. They wear their regular uniform, and indication of their position on the course is done with nametags.

To add to some of the comments. * Your lodge should consider offering Troop Rep training at Lodge weekends, so it does not take the reps away from their troop. Also, other TR training opportunities should have been made available so that the TR would have other chances to take it. * Your troop should not have functioned poorly if the SPL was not there. How would have it been different if he had been sick and could come at all? If your troop doesn't have one, they need to have an ASPL (even if its one of the PL that also serve in that position as needed). Thus, if for some reason the SPL isn't there (next time he might be going to Philmont or going to the Jamboree), there shouldn't be any problems. To me, this looks like you have an issue in your troop that this incident has pointed out. Blaming the OA for a problem that already existed is wrong.

There is a yahoo group for the CoD: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/corpsofdiscovery Recommend you join if you want to learn more about it.

Here are some ideas. * put it on at your local scout camp, doing it as a retreat. * get youth to teach all the sessions, not adults. The youth should have gone thru VLSC. * extend your VLSC, using low cope or iniative games to build teamwork in your youth. * are you doing this for your crew? Consider opening it up to other crews in your district/council.

"The crew at first opted out of a 1st class uniform on the basis that one of our youngest men said best, "I don't care how many things I can attach to my shirt, I care about how many things I can learn." I told them I thought it would be best if at least a few of the adults that would be in front of other Scouters and council had a shirt for those occasions. They agreed, and since we had all worked hard to make 100% quality unit, be trained, and rack up over 100 Good Turn For America hours in the past few months, there would be something to "read" at the meeting." A comment on uniforms. I always emphasis that crews are free to choice their uniform, or even not have a uniform. HOWEVER, I always recommend that if the crew does not want to have a uniform (or even goes with a t-shirt or polo shirt) that they NOT deny members (include adults) the option of using the BSA Venturing uniform. In situations in which a BSA uniform is expected (if not required), members should feel free to obtain one and wear it. I actually find that if Venturers are working with other scouts, scouters and venturers, many of them want and will wear the Venturing uniform. I was at our council VOA (that's Venturing Officers Association) meeting, and its surprising how many of the youth were in their uniforms. We adults have never asked that they wear them at these meetings, they all have them and wear them. And, as I note, there are times in which the uniform WILL be mandated. For instance, the Venturers attending the World Jamboree WILL be wearing the BSA Venturing uniform. If they attend the National Jamboree, same thing applies.

Regarding WB uniforms. As Crew21_Adv mentioned, WB participants no longer wear 'striped' uniforms. Same is now true for the staffers (who now must indicate their position by special nametags). WB participants are given their patrol mediallion with a safety pin to pin on their uniform for the course, and they have PL & APL patches with safety pins for the same purposes. There is no reason (no excuse?) for any WBers to be sewing on their patrol medallions. Despite this, I still see WBers (both 'old' and 'new' course) sewing on their patrol medallions after the course.

Semper, great piece. But you left out a few groups. You left out: * the peacenics, who would claim that 'Mr. Powell', as a former military guy, is probably trying to turn those kids into little soldiers. * the hawks, who would claim that 'Mr. Powell', as a former military guy, has failed to come up with a program to turn kids into little soldiers. * the religious types, who since there is no mention of religion, that obviously this is not a Christ-centered activity, and just a way to bring in 'nature religious', which we all know is just witchcraft. * etc. (I think you get the idea. Funny thing is that B-P actually had to deal with several of such groups in his time)

""Indian Lore" would not exist because we would not have the influence of Daniel Beard that started that tradition." Ernest Thompson Seton must be spinning in his grave. We did not get Indian Lore from Dan Beard. Beard's program was based on the american frontiersman. Indian Lore came from Seton's Woodcraft Indians, and was one of the influences on the OA. "Our honorary society would not be the OA, but would look completely different." Our honorary society might not have been the OA. The OA was but one of half a dozen such groups being looked at, along with Firecrafters, Tribe of Mic-O-Say, Gimogash, Nani Ba Zhu, Ku-Ni-eh, and others. Most groups took their que from Indian Lore, but some did not. OA was the strongest and most previlent, but things might have gone differently.

"I also see a lot of knots sewn on upside down. This is especially true with the single color knots such as the youth religious emblem knot." Wearing the single color knots upside down is not as bad as doing so with the ones with a clear orientation (like the silver beaver, et al). Or wearing the knot with the plastic backing facing out. The big problem I see with knots are the people who don't understand how the miniture pins work. And the people who hassle kids for wearing the knots they are entitled to (like the youth religious knot). I wrote: "I get annoyed by those WBs who continue to wear their WB patrol medallion after being beaded... " Lisa'bob asks: "I'm just curious and don't mean to hijack the thread but...why does this annoy you? Seems reasonable that it might be an expression of pride in their patrol?" Patrol medallions are for youth wear only. Adults should not be wearing them. No, wearing them is NOT a reasonable way to show pride in your patrol. There are other methods: You can get special WB nametags (either pin above the pocket or pocket dangles) that can indicate your patrol. Wear that. Or wear a pin on your hat. But don't sew a patrol medallion on your uniform. Worse was a sea scout skipper who sewed her fox patrol medallion on her sea scout uniform. totally inapproprate, as sea scouts don't use patrol medallions...

"I have been waiting for over 3 1/2 years for this. I cannot tell you how delighted I am to be on staff. WOW!" Only 3.5 years? Hah! It took me about 15 years... "Ok.. now that I got that out of the way and managed to come down out of the clouds for just a bit (NOT), any advise from any of you old-time staffers?" Yeah. Have fun, work with your fellow staffers, be there for your patrol and ALL the participants. Be mindful of your limitations. Realize that as a staffer, you will be putting in more time (more days, more hourse per day) then the participants. "By the way, I will be serving as Troop Guide. They could not have given me a better assignment. Best staff position! " Yes and no. It can be hard. As a troop guide, your job doesn't end when the course does, but when all your patrol gets their beads (or 18 months after the course, whichever comes first). "I haven't even been assigned a patrol. I don't even know when that will occur." On my course, we literally assigned the patrols (and the guides) the night before the course began (I think to insure we knew who was coming). We tried to organize the patrols by area, so that they would be from the same general area, and assigned the guides loosely along those lines. Patrol names was done to make sure there was a mixture of patrols in each area. So you will probably not be assigned the same patrol you are a member of. (I wasn't). "I am so green at this, but excited! I do plan to make the best of this time and enjoy every single moment of it. I'm gonna have a great time!" Its a lot of work. You'll need to prepare your presentations. But if you have the right mind set, you should do well.

"I would add that some of my top ten shouldnts are..." "Scouters wearing a tempory patch on the left pocket." Agree. I have one rule about temporary patches that if they have button loops, they should not be sewn down. I get annoyed when people do that. "Scouters and Scouts wearing multiple Quality Unit patches." It USED to be the rule, but was dropped once they had put out 3-4 of them. The worse are the ones with double rows. "Scouters wearing "Trained" strips on the right sleeve." Never seen that. I usually see scouts wear the trained strip with no office patch. "Along with patches is the uniform police favorite of adult boy scout leaders wearing patrol emblems. Exception is woodbadge." with WB they should only be pinned on for the duration of the course. I get annoyed by those WBs who continue to wear their WB patrol medallion after being beaded...

brianbuf asks: "if BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?" Well, this is why I recommended that you read Hillcourt bio of B-P, and read B-P's 2 main books on scouting: Scouting for Boys and Aids to Scoutmastership. You would, maybe, understand what scouting is. And is not. (I also recommend you get a copy of a book called "Last Child in the Woods"). Scouting was never created to be a fad or to tie in with the latest crazy. A lot of your nonsense is along those lines. Scouting was never about that. While B-P was a military man, is was a very unusual one. He got his commission by basically cramming for and getting a very good score on something similiar to an SAT test. He was a poor student, but loved the out of doors, was artistic and all the rest. Summer vacation for him was to go on weeks-long boating/camping trips with his older brothers. While in the military, his R&R was to go camping. He developed "scouting" while in the military. It was very radical and totally unlike military training. It was all about getting small groups of people to work together AND to make individuals think and work things out for themselves. The total opposite of most military training of drilling and marching and the like. He did not think that military training was appropriate for children, so he converted his military scouting program to a program for youth. He spent time looking at other programs that existed, and took inspiration from older concepts (his Rover program for 18-25 'youth' took its inspiration from the Knights of old). His scouting uniform was NOT based on military uniforms, but the comfortable outdoors clothing that he prefered to wear as a scout and on his camping trips. That neckerchief that you so seem to hate had a useful purpose: keeping the sun of your neck. He got that idea from American cowboys and frontiersmen. The broadbrimmed hat, which for many of us we think of drill instructors or highway troops, was just a wide brimmed hat that the cowboys and frontiermen would wear. Thus, and '21st century scouting' program would base their uniform on the practical outdoor clothing worn by campers and outdoors people, what you'd see in REI, Campmor, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc. NOT base on military BDUs, hunter camo or the like. Camping would still be important. Read that book I mentioned, "Last Child in the Woods". Even in B-Ps time doing this was radical. Most people were rapidly moving to an urban environment, loosing thier connection with nature. This is still true today. There are a lot of other programs out there that I think a "21st Century Scouting" program would take its que from. Outward Bound, Project Adventure, National Outdoor Leadership School, the whole 'experiental education' movement. I think many of them really have their roots in scouting. And I don't think you will see merit badges about "skateboarding and gaming and rollerblading". Merit badges were never about flashy fads, but about getting competent in life skills. I say this again: educate yourself about what scouting is. Please stop coming here and wasting our time and getting us to do the job for you. I've given you 4 books you need to obtain and read.

Some units may cover all or part of the cost, usually reimbursing the participant once they get their beads. Some councils may have WB scholarships, to help scouters who need some help financially. If your council doesn't have this, encourage them to do so. Most cases councils will have a 'wb association' (basically, everyone one who has earned their beads), and have an annual wb gathering or the like, the proceeds of which fund the scholarship. They may sell WB stuff, again, proceeds going to scholarship.

brianbuf- it would really help if you got the name of our Founder right. Its "Lord Baden-Powell", NOT "Lord Powell". I also wonder what book your dentist read. I've read Bill Hillcourt's excellent "Two Lives of a Hero". I would NOT conclude that todays scouting is far from what he envisioned. A couple of excellent resources is getting copies of B-P's "Scouting for Boys" (reprints can be found. The best is Hillcourt's 'World Brotherhood edition') or his 'Aids to Scoutmastership' (again, look for Hillcourt's 'World Brotherhood edition'). I have those, and I don't feel that today's scouting is a far cry from what B-P envisioned. I think you would benifit from reading these works, however.

"Someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but Neckers are optional. Choice of neckwear and headwear is a troop decision. But once decided, all should wear the same thing." You are correct, which is why 'brianbuf's comments are a bit wrong headed. The troop decided what will be their neckerchief. Or not even have one. Same for the hat. When I was a scout, it was the generic navy blue one, but even then it was quickly falling out of favor (and this was when the scout uniforms had no collars). We created a unique troop neckerchief, but it was rarely used (I saved mine). I myself moved to wearing bolo ties with the open collared shirts. From that point on I only worn neckerchiefs when I had to (Jamboree or WB). In my area, neckerchiefs are fairly rare, but if worn, its usually because of personal choice. Yes, some kids DO like to wear them. I ususally see them wearing them at OA events or council eagle banquets and the like.

Trevorum asked: "What are your top ten uniform mistakes?" My top 10 list was more based on bad insignia usage on uniforms, but I think the mixing of non-uniform clothing items (blue jeans) would be a good one to mention. My list: 1. World Crest (not being worn in the right position, or other patches worn in its place) 2. World Conservation Award (lot of confusion on where it goes) 3. Service Stars (wrong locations, worn without the backings) 4. left sleeve insignia (too much space between patches, trained strip worn without an office patch, arrowhead patches worn by non-commissioners) 5. Jamboree patches (jamboree unit numbers, office patches, patrol medallions worn 6 months after jamboree; jamboree patches worn by non-participants, etc) 6. CSPs (proliferation of CPS-shaped patches worn in place of the CSP) 7. Sashes (OA & MB sashes worn incorrectly or at inappropriate times) 8. "Its for the youth" (adults wearing stuff only youth should be wearing) 9. Equipment/Civilian (wearing stuff that's equipment decoration or only for civilian wear on the uniform) 10. Formal (wearing stuff only for formal occasions at regular events, such as medals, etc) If I went beyond that, I guess I'd add: 11. Non-uniform clothing items (blue jeans, camo, etc) 12. "Knot knonsense" (problems with knots, knot devices, etc)

At present, there is no 'Arts & Hobbies' award equivalent to the Ranger, Quest or Trust awards. Why? Several reasons. Ranger was rolled out at the begining, because Outdoor crews made up a large majority of the crews out there, something like 80-90%. Quest came next, because Sports was the next largest number, plus there has long been a sports subcommittee of the National Venturing Committee. Thus, this group was able to develop and rollout this award. Trust came next, but was delayed about a year. There are many religious crews, and thanks to a lot of hard work, this award was created. The number of Arts & Hobbies crews is very small compared to the others. Plus A&H coveres a very broad spectrum of interests. It would be difficult to create an higher A&H awards, as you would either have to make it fairly broad and openended (or customizable for each member). Be nice if one was created, but I'm not going to hold my breath for one.

kraut-60 wrote: "Also some very good points, I especially like the 10 current uniforms, but I'm not sure I could list all 10 but I'll give it a shot. "1.) Tiger Cubs Blue uniform w/Tiger specific cap,neckerchief,slide,belt buckle. "2.)Cub Scout-Wolf Blue uniform w/Wolf specific cap,neckerchief,slide,belt buckle. "3.)Cub Scout-Bear Blue uniform w/Bear specific cap,neckerchief,slide,belt buckle. "4.)Webelos Scout Tan/Olive uniform w/Webelos specific cap,neckerchief,slide,buckle "5.)Cub Scout leader Tan/Olive uniform (Male/Female). "6.)Cub Scout leader Yellow/Blue uniform (female only). "7.)Boy Scout youth or adult member Tan/Olive uniform. "8.)Venturers youth or adult member Green/Gray uniform. "9.)Sea Scouts youth Blue/White/chambray-denim uniform(s). "10.)Sea Scouts adult advisor Blue/White/Khaki uniform(s). You approached it differently then I did. For me, if the SAME uniform is used by multiple programs, its one uniform. Adding something like a different neckerchief doesn't count. Also if a program has multiple uniforms, those count as separate uniforms. My list: 1) Cub Scout blue uniform 2) Female cub scouter yellow & blue uniform 3) BSA Tan/khaki uniform 4) Venturing green/gray uniform 5) Sea Scout white crackerjack uniform 6) Sea Scout blue crackerjack uniform 7) Sea Scout chambray blue work uniform 8) Sea Scouter summer white uniform 9) Sea Scouter summer tan uniform 10) Sea Scouter dress navy blue uniform