emb021

Also, the current training continuum has been more or less the same for at least a 2-3 decades (other then updates of the courses). A week of training for youth is NOT something new, so I don't fully understand the issue. A few years ago it was: * Officer briefing by SM * weekend Junior Leader Training/Troop Program Planning by SM * week long Junior Leader Training Conference by council * week long National Junior Leader Instructor Camp at Philmont (for JLTC SPLs) Today its * Officer briefing by SM * weekend Troop Leadership Training/Troop Program Planning by SM * week long National Youth Leadership Training by council * week long National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience at Phimont (for ANY youth who has gone thru NYLT) * weekend Youth Staff Development Course by regionals (for NYLT youth staff only) As noted, $200 is not unreasonable for a weeklong training event. About the same costs as other weeklong training, such as Wood Badge, Powder Horn, etc.

trailfinder52- a lot of what you stated in your most recent post is a given. Any Venturing Honor Society (VHS) must be designed to work for all Venturers. However, I do question this: "I do not think that copying the OA would be a good idea". In what way do you mean about 'copying the OA'? IMO, a major failing of the CoD concept is that the creators of it were too wrapped up in 'let's not be like the OA' that they (again IMO) made the CoD an honor society with little purpose beyond the 'honor of being a member'. I hate to sound negative or 'anti-CoD', but I just see the CoD as a great idea that has been crippled by some major wrong decisions from the get go. So what is 'copying the OA'? An Indian-lore theme? Keep in mind that MANY Scout Honor Societies (SHS) have an Indian Lore theme, and most were established quite independently of the OA, and I think many members of such groups would be very upset about someone saying they are just 'copying the OA'. But I don't see a VHS as needed to follow such a theme, and gave examples of other themes that HAVE been used by other SHS. Is having a structure and purpose with officers and the like 'copying the OA'? Again, ALL SHS have this, and this is needed to have these groups have a purpose beyond just the 'honor of being a member'. (as noted, I view this as one of the failings of the CoD idea) As an APO member, I also don't understand the comment of an 'APO format'. APO is a service fraternity, with a lot of similiarities to both other college fraternities and the OA. There are requirements to join and you must complete a period of pledgeship to join (similiar in some ways with the OA's requirements and ordeal), there are rituals that are performed (again, like most any SHS), and APO members focus on service to the community and leadership development (become leaders by serving others and moving up within the chapter, and again, a lot like the OA). And again, as I noted, there are some SHS that have used a college fraternity theme, and in fact, the early OA shows some college fraternity influences. (the ordeal process is very similiar to the pledge process, and in the early days was even more similiar)

Oh. You mean like a dunce cap?

Do I get a special hat to wear?

The knot in question probably came from Craig Murray. He makes several repro knots on Venturing green. Visit his store here for more info: http://www.sageventure.com/store/ While I do not care for unofficial knots, the GS Gold one is one of the very few that I don't mind. "Even though it is still Scouting, the BSA does not recognize awards earned thru other organizations, only those earned thru BSA. The only exception to this would be the Religious Emblem knot." Not quite true. There are also the 'Community Organization Awards'. These are 10 (so far) awards given by community organizations that the BSA recognizes with a knot (gold on purple).

Uh, we had a young man in our council recently receive his Quartermaster. We haven't had a QM in several years, and he is the first QM Nationally in this 'fiscal year'. He got it before he aged out. He was also working to get both Ranger and Silver, and missed out by about a requirement each. He already had Eagle Scout, went to SEAL last summer, and most summers is on summer camp staff (in another council). He was our outgoing Council Boatswain. "He does not automagically age out at 21. After his 21st birthday, he has until his 22nd birthday or the unit recharter, whichever comes first. Check the fine print on the inside cover of the youth application." Not quite. In regards to advancement, yes, they age out at 21. What the above means is the person is still on the unit charter. But anything else that requires they be below 21 (hold office, earn advancement, etc) stops. I believe both Venturing and the OA will not allow someone who will turn 21 during their term of office to run for (as the case may be) Lodge, Section, Region, or National positions. Same for attending the Jamborees.

Eamonn- your son is not the kind of scout being spoken of here. I see on your list a LOT of scouting activities. The kind of 'scouts' being spoken of are those who have pretty much stopped any scouting activities, then come back 'at the last minute' to get their Eagle.

To add to what eagle-pete said, there really isn't any 'repeats' of this. We need to keep in mind that not everyone goes to all this training. Visioning is considered a major first step in leadership development. The idea that a leader must have a vision of what he things the group is and should do and become, and which he needs to convey to his followers so that they accept that vision and makes it real is very important. Most leadership development programs start off with this. As there is little chance of getting everyone to take the same basic leadership training, regardless of age or program, this basic concept gets repeated. Eamonn's scout needs to get over himself. He needs to put things in perspective and realize that 1) this material is repeated not to annoy him, but because the others around him may not know it and 2) he just may learn something new or make a new realization about it. Too often many don't 'get this' and so shut things out and miss it.

Again, take a look at the many scout honor societies which have existed (http://usscouts.org/usscouts/honorsociety/honorscout.html has info on many of these). I am not aware of any SHS that started off as unit-based. ALL SHS have been either council-based or camp-based (that is, they existed within a council, and spread to others, or existed at a particilar camp for its summer camp program, and spread to others). SHS have taken their cue from masonic/fraternal groups (including college fraternities), american indian culture (OA, and similiar groups), american frontierman, knights of old, etc. ALL SHS had a purpose beyond just 'honoring scouts with membership'. All had a purpose, usually of service to their camp/council, community and units (all units, not just a particular one). To achieve this purpose, SHS had to have some kind of organization (bylaws, officers, etc). There must be SOME requirement to join. A VHS must, of course, be open to both male & female Venturers (that's a given); and be accessible to members of any kind of crew. But their must be some eligibility requirements. Most are aware of the OA's requirements (First Class, 20 days/nights camping, SM approval). You many not be aware that in the days of Explorer Scouts/Explorers, Explorers just had to achieve the first Explorer rank. So prehaps a VHS could have the requirement of earning ANY Bronze (doable for any Venturer), completing a minimum number of community service hours, maybe hold an office in their crew and attending a district, council, area, regional, or national Venturing event (or an innner-crew event). Another thing is that any VHS should not be a duplication or competition to other Venturing structures. For me, I believe that there should be VOAs (or Teen Leader Councils or Youth Cabinets or whatever you want to call them) in councils (and ideally also in district). These VOAs should be helping Venturing grow, plan and organize Venturing events, promote Venturing, help provide training, etc. Any VHS needs to complement this, not compete with this. For me, while the CoD is an interesting attempt, it does not met some of the criteria I think is important. Any VHS should have: * Be open to all Venturers regardless of gender or crew program. * A theme or character to the organization (knighthood, frontiersman, indian lore, etc.). * A purpose beyond just honoring Venturers (service, leadership, etc) * A structure (bylaws, officers, etc.), and like crews, be youth led/run with adult advisement. * Be inner-crew (be organized at the district/council level(s), NOT exist solely within a crew). * Work with existing (or should exist) Venturing structures, such as district/council VOA/TLC/Youth Cabinet (whatever you call them), and not be a competition/distraction/duplication. * Have a reasonable joining requirement (something the Venturer must work toward to be eligible, but which is doable to most Venturers)

"You might want to think about Casablanca and Mr.Rick's effect on the community...but please do not compare DE's to Captain Renault." Why not? Sounds like a perfect match. DE: "We need someone to run this event. Round up the usual suspects!"

The latest version of the Insignia Guide (with a new cover, you can see it on-line in the Scout Stuff catalog) is #33066. The Uniform Inspection Sheet is fine, but it will NOT show were all the patches/pin/etc go. While the Insignia Guide is pretty good, it DOES have errors. I know there are atleast 2 knots not listed, and a few other insignia left out (all of which have been out for about 2 years, so I'm not talking about really recent stuff).

"but that is the way I see it in my particular council. Who knows, to be perfectly honest, maybe I am a lousy trainer and scout leader and that's what they are trying to tell me, who knows? " Its probably your council. In 2 councils I'm involved in, I've seen a lot of new WBers become staffers a year or two after completing their ticket. However, I tried for years in my old home council to get on staff for the new woodbadge, to be repeatedly turned down. One thing they did (which isn't quite right) is they selected their staff a year out and started staff development. That's not allowed with the most recently changes, which limit staff development to about 90 days prior to the course. A month after their previous course, I'd find out who the next CD was, and ask to be on their course, to find out they've already picked their staff! "Maybe things will change with the new wood badge course," No. Things have ALREADY changed in the new course. Required 30% new staffers, no repeates with Course Directors, restrictions on staff development (the time committement for staff development is something that can turn some away from being staff. I turned down a second staff opportunity because I knew I would be in the middle of purchasing a condo, and knew I couldn't handle that and being on staff), etc. "but of course, unless I step down and redo the course, their's no way for me to ever serve on staff (We have been told this in our council, that you cannot ever staff a wood badge course unless you have taken the new 21st century course). " That's not your council, that is a new National Policy. While I don't like it, it was coming. Until this past year (2006), those who had gone thru the old course could be on staff for the 21st century course. Now, you must have either participated or staffed a 21st century course. There were several changes that were being rolled out over time with the new course. When I staffed my course in 2004, our CD told me that he hadn't been a troop guide on a 21st century course. Doing so was a new requirement for CDs that would go into place in 2005. The guy who was going to be the CD for the 2005 course was serving as one of our troop guides for just that reason.

A few comments: OA & Venturing. The problem is that the OA is part of the BSA's "Boy Scout Program Division". Because this division is not a co-ed youth division, they can't allow female youth to join the OA. Get all p*ssy about this won't change a thing. I know of many within the OA (youth and adults) who would love to open it up to female Venturers. Any such attempt is always over ruled by the Nat Boy Scout Committee. "why even pretend we are a separate program when there is so much cross over?" Just because there is cross over does not mean we are not separate. The original Senior programs, while always separate from the Boy Scout program, have LONG had connections/cross over with the Boy Scout Program. Troops were allowed to use the various Senior programs within their unit, boys could earn any award from any of the programs, etc. Why erect walls when their need not be. "The COD withered on the vine". The COD may have died down/off in your area, but other areas still use it to an excent. Part of the problem is there is no effort at any kind of national coordination of the 'program', so that others aren't even aware of how its being used. For myself, my main issue with the COD is that is seems to have little purpose beyond 'honoring' someone by making them a member. There is no organization or program or purpose, beyond that, due in no small part of the originators to have the COD 'not be the OA'. They seemed to not have looked at he many other scouting honor societies that have exist (and in some cases still exist), who have always had a real purpose and program. While some seem to want to 'wait around' for the youth to create a 'venturing honor society', I would remined people that most (if not all) of the scouting honor societies were almost all established and organized by adults.

FYI. When I was a scout and later a scout leader in my troop, all troop meetings began with a pledge of the allegiance and the recitation of the Scout Oath and Law. As some point during this period (not sure if as an older scout or as a scout leader), knowledge of the Outdoor Code was added to the requirements for Tenderfoot. When that happened, we decided to add reciting the Outdoor Code along with the Oath & Law.

"wood badge is becoming more like a "good old boys club", where if you rub the "right" people the right way, you will get invited back to serve on staff, and maybe even be a course director someday. If you don't fit in with the "click" you are politely snubbed and avoided. Sorry, but I don't have time for that kind of nonsense. " As another has pointed out, you are WAYYY off on this. The OLD WB course had the reputation of being a 'good ol' boys club'. A LOT of changed were done in 21CWB to eliminate/prevent that. WB is NOT becoming a GOBC. It has been moving away from that for years. In the old course, you had to get an invite to attend. As most councils only did the course every 2-3 years, this made it tough. But I can tell you that when I did the old WB in 88, I was told, 'you need an invite, but if you want an invite, ask'. In the old course, councils had to jump thru a lot of hoops to justify allowing a new person to come on staff. (yes, this was official, documented, national policy!) Many councils just didn't bother. Plus you'd have people repeatedly being the CD, denying others the chance. Now course are required to have 30% new people as staffer. Being CD is a multi-course process, as you need to be on staff 2-3 times, be approved by the council, etc. Not a trivial thing. BUT, once you are a CD, that's it, you're out. This gives others the chance to be on staff/CD. Is it perfect everywhere? No. In some councils there is still a WB clique. Other councils are more open minded and very progressive in recruiting new staffers. In one council I'm involved in, we will have the 2nd or 3rd female CD in a row. In most cases if you are a decent trainer and you want to be on staff, you will probably get on staff in most councils.

"When I received the patch and rocker at the official council scout shop I was told it is to be worn above the right pocket." They were wrong. The only patches that go above the right pocket are: * interpreter strips * the venture strip (for boys in a Venture Patrol) * Jamboree patches As others have mentioned, get a copy of the Insignia Guide. Or try asking those Scout Shop workers where it is in WRITING that the GTFA patch goes in the place for Jamboree patches.

That patch was designed for the 2007-2010 Program Emphasis of the BSA. So long as it can fit on the right pocket, you can wear it there. Or on your patch vest, etc.

"But, one of the guys leaders happens to be the man I'm engaged to. Anyone know the rules to this one?" We're talking engaged, not married, BUT I asked the National Venturing guys about this once. They said, basically, that these rules (no fraternization between under and over 21) DO NOT APPLY to a married couple. SO, once you two are married, then everything should be ok.

First off, JASMs must be at least 16 years old. This is National Policy. If you look at the various materials from National, they speak of JASMs and give some ideas on how they can be used (see SM HB, and I think the PL & SPL handbooks). If the scouts you are thinking of are old enough (and mature enough) to be 'patrol mentors', they might be ok as JASM. Understand that I think some of the thinking behind JASMs is that they oversee and mentor the troop junior leaders. And think how much different would this be from an ASPL doing this task?

Things have changed. In the old days, it was very difficult to get on staff. Heck, this was by National policy. Councils had to jump thru a lot of hoops to get someone new on staff. Thus, many councils just didn't bother. When 21st Century WB was rolled out, they set out to make some very radical changes in how WB was delivered (and the US was not alone in doing some of these things). When it came to staff selection & development, this lead to things like: * once a course director, you are out and can't (except for very extreme reasons) be on staff or a course director again. * courses are REQUIRED to have a percentage (1/3 or 1/4, can't recall) of NEW people on staff (ie, those who had NEVER been on staff. I can tell you this helped me be on staff after going thru WB 15 years prior, and expecting to be asked (because the attitude was you DIDN'T ask, you waited to be asked). * staff development time is reduced. Staff Development is not even supposed to begin until about 90 days out. In the past, many courses started their staff development a year out, with monthly meetings, etc. While this may have lead to 'better' staff, it was also a big time committement that turned many away. In my area, due to the fact that we are running MORE WB courses (1-2 a year in many councils, vs 1 every 2-3 years in 'my day'), and need NEW WBers on staff, those who can and WANT to be on staff have a much better chance to be on staff that it was 10-20 years ago.

I dropped Outside magazine many years back when I got tired of their occasional anti-BSA articles. I kept Backpacker for a while (dropped for other reasons), and one reason was that when they did their occasional article on scouting/bsa, it was fairly even handed and decent. I found them fair to the BSA. They were one of the exhibitors with the OA's TOAP at the 2001 National Jamboree. I don't see the items you mention as being 'anti-BSA'. If they did a long article (several pages) on scouting and it was anti-BSA (like Outside always did), I might agree.

Its not clear to me what is going on. If this is going on in troop meetings, your troop meetings really should be focus on program, etc, so there really isn't any kind of 'discussion' going on that one can 'get off subject', etc. If this is a PLC, the only ones who should be there are the PLC members, and the SPL should act as a chair and keep those speaking on topic. More info would help. This is basic 'meeting decorum' that should be followed, but that really is only applicaple at a PLC or similiar 'business' meeting.

A suggestion with candles. Before you use them in your ceremony, besure to light all the wicks and get them nice and charred. This way, when you light them during the ceremony, they will do so quite easily. Nothing messes up a nice candle lighting ceremony more then not being able to get a candle lite.

I have to agree with some of Crew 21 Advisor's comments. I think on of the bigs benefits we could get in Venturing is to have a series of "Venturing Program Helps" for several of the major types of crews. Under the old Exploring program back in the 90s, they created over 20 different Exploring program helps. Only a few would be useful for Venturing (High Adventure, Sports, Religious Life). The High Adventure PH was pretty much pulled into the Venturing Leader Manual, which I always thought a mistake (not all Crews are camping/high adventure). the Sports one, which I recently scanned and would like to find a on-line place for it, could be updated and expanded for Venturing. The religous life one, which after looking over I've discovered to be nearly useless, could be updated and expaned to work alongside the Trust award. Other PH could be developed for other types of crews, and be available on-line (there was some discussion about this on the venturing yahoo group). I know when I brought up the subject of PH to the National Venturing leadership, none were interested in doing this. I'll always felt this to be a mistake, as I think one of the problems of many crews is trying to figure out on their own what to do.

Jamborees are held every four years, not 7.