emb021

I've been told they are coming out with Switchbacks for Venturing. I never purchased any Venturing pants or shorts. Didn't have to. You could get charcoal gray pants/shorts from other sources and still be in 'full uniform'. So I did.

Uh, its been known for a couple of years that there was not going to be a NOAC in 2008. NOACs were shifted due to both having Jamboree in 2010, and wanting to put NOACs on a schedule to have on in 2015 for the 100th Anniversary. Plans are: 2007- National Leadership & Conservation Summit 2008- Arrowcorps5 2009- NOAC 2010- National Scout Jamboree 2011- NOAC 2013- NOAC 2014- National Scout Jamboree 2015- NOAC (100th Anniversary of OA) note that this leaves an 'open' year in 2012. No idea what, if anything, will happen then.

"Between the changes from the JLTC and the NYLT, there are no longer any commitments that the attendees must complete to earn the NYLT compass patch." I have copies of JLTC syllabi, and I do not recall anything about participants needing to complete any commitments to earn the JLTC patch. This is most likely something done in your council. (its been a long while since I've staffed JLTC, and I don't recall there ever being such a rule). Now, not saying that the idea of a commitment to earn the patch is good or bad. This is done in the OA's NLS (and Wood Badge). But its not part of JLTC or NYLT.

Who says the boy has to take off the first one and replace it with the second? Its up to the boy what he wears there, and for how long. In my case, I had a certain camporee patch I wore for years there, and when I went to Philmont, I've been wearing my Philmont Arrowhead every since in that location (except for certain times when I swapped it out for something else- hence the value of patches with button loops). You can wear past event patches on the back of the merit badge sash. Not everything worn on the right pocket, btw, really goes there. Or get a patch vest. Me, I use my patch box for old activity patches. I have just way too many for a vest or even a jacket.

I have heard of no efforts to bring Sea Scouting 'closer' to Venturing (ie, more than already exists). There is no effort, to my knowledge, to merge the Sea Scout Manual into the Venturing Handbook. Sea Scouting remains what it is, a unique program within Venturing. There should be no 'animosity' between the two. In my area, Ships are seen as part of the overall Venturing program. If Ships want to participate with other Venturing Crews or the larger Venturing program, that's fine, but no one gets upset when Ships do their thing. We mainly look at the relationship as a partnership between the two. Most Ships that I know of follow the Sea Scout program. (uniform, advancement, etc). A few that don't, IMO, don't last too long. Most are groups that became Ships for the wrong reasons (get insurance, and that's about it). Also, keep in mind that the 'Venturing Program' has really been around for several decades as the Exploring program, and been quite successful.

As this is an Eagle Court of Honor, there would also be nothing incorrect about wearing your Eagle Medal. You can wear this on your BSA uniform (if you are still registered in scouting) or on your suit coat. An adult wearing an Eagle Medal at a formal occassional like this is perfectly fine. The wearing of the small eagle lapel pin would be ok to wear on your suit coat during non-formal occasions.

The two councils I work with have them. One calls their event "SAW" (Scout Advancement Weekend), and is now one of the biggest events in the council. The other calls theirs Merit Badge University. A variety of merit badges are 'taught'. There are just certain requirements that can not be handled, so its made clear that certain things need to be done before hand, or the boys will be leaving with partials. Many chapters of my fratenity run 'Merit Badge Universities' on their college campuses. They usually focus on more 'academic' type merit badges (chemistry, nuclear science, computers, space exploration, aviation, etc) that can take advantage of the resources (professors, labs, etc) that are available to them. Scouting Magazine ran articles on this sorts of events. Utah National Parks' Merit Badge Pow Wow: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0409/a-blst.html APO Chapter at UT-Austin's Merit Badge University: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0409/a-grtt.html

"can a temporary patch that goes on the right pocket be sewn on?" Sure. In the 'old days' that was your only choice. You usually had to settle on one patch, else you were have to be doing a lot sewing and resewing. My 'rule of thumb' when it comes to temporary patches is that if it comes with a button loop, do NOT sew it down. Button looped patches make it easy to change them. Or you could wear one for years and years. I pretty much just wear my Philmont Arrowheard (which has a loop), and only swap it out for certain occasions. The plastic patch holders are a good option for patches that don't have a loop. Again, this allows you the chance to change out what you are wearing for the occasion.

"What gives? What is National's problem with the rest of the world?" Don't know. I find it very frustrating. I was hoping that BSA NS would carry some of the 2007 items. (am a bit leary of ordering stuff overseas). Even in their World Jamboree catalog they only carry a handful of items from overseas. "Are there any units out there that have purchased the patch?" Unaware of any in my area. Only seen one person (a youth) wear the rectangular patch on their uniform, above the right pocket (incorrectly). I think they are going to the World Jamboree, and so they put this patch there. "Are you wearing them? Where? (location) " I do not plan on wearing one of these patches. IF I did, it would go on the right pocket. Jamboree patches (which this is not) go above the pocket. "How is the quality of the patch?" its about what I would expect of overseas patches. Not quite as nice as most I've seen in the USA.

"As I have said I'm just not having any joy with the USPS in our area." That's totally the opposite of what I see in my area. Night & day. In the two councils I work with, the Sea Scouters have a good relationship with the USPS groups. Its helped by the fact that many of the local Sea Scout leadership are ALSO USPS leaders. They joke that when they joined the USPS, they dropped the average age by half. Heck, when we held a recent Squadron Bridge of Honor, and presented the first Quartermaster Award in several years, it was held at the local USPS building. Plus, the USPS has a 'community organization award' recognized by the BSA. Our immediate past Squadron Commodore (now a member of the National Sea Scout Committee) has it. I know he and his wife are USPS leaders as well. The USPS-Sea Scout agreement helps both groups. It can bring Sea Scouts and their leaders into the USPS, and gets Sea Scouts and their leaders access to the USPS training. Its too bad your local USPS groups don't get this.

"As I have said I'm just not having any joy with the USPS in our area." That's totally the opposite of what I see in my area. Night & day. In the two councils I work with, the Sea Scouters have a good relationship with the USPS groups. Its helped by the fact that many of the local Sea Scout leadership are ALSO USPS leaders. They joke that when they joined the USPS, they dropped the average age by half. Heck, when we held a recent Squadron Bridge of Honor, and presented the first Quartermaster Award in several years, it was held at the local USPS building. Plus, the USPS has a 'community organization award' recognized by the BSA. Our immediate past Squadron Commodore (now a member of the National Sea Scout Committee) has it. I know he and his wife are USPS leaders as well. The USPS-Sea Scout agreement helps both groups. It can bring Sea Scouts and their leaders into the USPS, and gets Sea Scouts and their leaders access to the USPS training. Its too bad your local USPS groups don't get this.

"I have read that you can wear Jambo patches on the back of the jacket but is it approproate to wear a jambo patch from when your were a kid on there? I have a nice 1998 jambo patch that I got when I was a Boy Scout that I would love to put on there. " Are you entitled to wear the 1998 Jamboree patch on your uniform? (ie, were you a Jamboree Participant or staff member at the 98 jamboree?). If so, yes, you can wear the 98 Jamboree Jacket patch on your red jacket. If you did not attend the 98 jamboree, no, you can't wear it.

"From everything I read on forums like this one, every single BSA council out there does things differently from every other BSA council. Some of these things are small & some are rather large. GSUSA councils are the same way." I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, each BSA council does things a little different. Being a member of 3 difference councils, and having exposure to several others, I've learned this. HOWEVER, from what I have gathered both from on-line Forums AND speaking with scouting friends who have tried to work with both GSUSA National AND local GSUSA councils, local GSUSA councils are MUCH more autonomous from GSUSA N then BSA Councils are. The differences between GSUSA councils are, in many cases, much wider then BSA councils. For instance, my Fraternity has been trying for several years to establish a formal relationship with GSUSA National, something we've had with the BSA since the 1930s and which we've established with groups like Camp Fire USA, America's Promise, etc. Maybe 'struggling' would be a better term then 'trying'. Instead, GSUSA National puts us off and would rather we establish such ties with each GSUSA Council. Fun. Dealing individually with 300+ councils, all of whom do things differently. I am sure many would tell us to take a hike. This is why we want to establish a national-level relationship, which can then be communicated to the local councils.

"I agree with the age changes. Bring the Rovers south of the border." You mean bring back Rovers. We used to have them in the BSA. "Would the over 14's still be allowed to work toward Eagle?" Don't know. It depends. If we end the Boy Scout Program at 14, do we still allow for Venturers/Sea Scouts to earn Eagle? Personally I don't care. This is part of the reason I say to keep Varsity Scouts. This allows for those boys (and adults) who want to still be involved with 'boy scouting' after 14 to have a place to go to.

"The Americas Boating Course offered by the USPS and the US Coast Guard Aux. Is a fine basic boating course. It just doesn't go into what is needed to meet Sea Scout requirements. " The ABC course is a beginners boating course. You should look at further courses put on by USPS and other groups. Not sure what you mean by 'it doesn't go into what is needed to meet SS requirements'. AFAIK, if a Sea Scout completes this course, he will have met the requirements for Small Boat Handler. (am recalling this from a discussion on the Sea Scout mailing list). "I don't know about anyone else? But I found the Sea Scout Officer Specialized training title to be very misleading -Other than changing the names of the Officers it's just the same as the Venturing course!" As someone who has both completed and given BOTH the Venturing Specific Training (basic venturing adult training) and SSOST, I have to disagree. SSOST is a 3 hour (can be done in less) add-on to Venturing Specific for those adults in Sea Scouts. It spends ALL its time going over the Sea Scout program. There should be no repetition of the Venturing course, unless someone did a 'sea scout specific' version of Venturing basic. (it exists out there) Its called "Sea Scout Officers Specific Training" because it goes into program-specific information. Thus it explains how a Ship is organized, who are the officers, what the uniform is, advancement, etc. As I noted before, its does not get into seamanship, because there are just too many excellent sources for that sort of training.

"Sadly the Sea Scout Officer Specialized training is not of a practical course." It's not meant to be. It's meant to educate people on the Sea Scout program. Period. You need to (and are expected to) take advantage of practical seamanship courses from groups like USPS, USGCA, etc. Why should Sea Scouts re-invent the wheel when its better to take advantage of what exists out there? There is a reason the Skipper's Key and Scouter's Training Award for Sea Scouters requires that you complete a basic boating safety course from groups like the above. And this is why you need to have SSOST be given by a Sea Scout leader who knows the program. This way you can be provided information such as this vs. getting some yahoo that just reads the course syllabus.

"Service Units do NOT "run Troops". Troop Leaders & the girls run their own Troops. Troops in any given area are NOT all the same." Maybe so, but that's how its been explained to me. Not being a GSUSA leader, I will defer to those who are. HOWEVER, one thing I've learned about GSUSA vs BSA, is that GSUSA Council are much more 'autonomous' then BSA ones, and this leads to a greater difference from council to council in how things are done. So how you discribe service units may be how its done in your council (and maybe how it should be done), and maybe what I describe is how it is in others. I'll give you an example. This was something that was posted to Scouts-L by a father. This father wanted to get his girl into Girl Scouts. But ALL the local troops were 'full', and had waiting lists. This was how the service unit ran that troops. That's how they (the leaders) like it. In the BSA if there were kids in need of scouting, you got them into a troop. I've never heard of troops being 'full' and turning kids away. And if you had so many kids who wanted in, you formed another troop. Not so here. So the father said basically 'how about I form a new troop for all these girls and be the leader' (since maybe the problem was the lack of leaders to form new units). The council or service unit was NOT having that (a male girl scout leader), so they quickly 'found a place' for his daughter. Too bad about all those other girls on the waiting lists.

"I'd be OK with leaving the choice to go coed up to the CO. I think but I'm not sure LDS units are not keen on having coed units." Agree. I've heard that the LDSers are a big barriers to going co-ed with Cub & Boy Scout programs. I don't understand why there can't be a compromise on this, by allowing the COs to determine this, as it is now with Venturing. "I don't really know enough about Varsity Units to be able to talk about them." Varsity Scouts is basically the Boy Scout program with some added elements, aimed at the 14-18 boy. A big program with keeping Boy Scout troops from 11-18 is that its really too wide a range. A lot of the older boys get tired of dealing with the younger kids, which is what lead to the creation of the mainly older boy/youth programs, including Varsity Scouts. Plus you have the resistance of the scout leaders that you are 'stealing their boys' with Venturing/Sea Scouting, etc. End that nonsense by cutting down Boy Scouting to ages 11-14, like it is in most countries. But if boys still want to do 'boy scouting' after 14, keep Varsity Scouts for that crowd. "I have never really understood by the idea of Scout Groups wasn't part of the BSA? Having a Pack, Troop and Crew as all part of one seems like a good idea, having them under the watchful eye of a Group Scout Leader, would ease the burden on commissioners. " Uh, it WAS part of the BSA, but not to that degree. West and the other professions DID push for the idea of a chartering organizations having the 'whole scouting family' of Pack, Troop, Post, Ship. And there could be a single Committee oversee them all, instead of separate pack, troop, etc committees. What DIDN'T happen was the creation of any overall group leadership (ie the "Group Scout Leader") as in England. The idea of the 'whole scouting family' seemed to die out in the late 50s/early 60s.

"If your dad is dissapointed in his daughters GS program, then I would tell him the same thing I tell parents who are dissapointed in the BSA program - Step up to the plate, get involved & MAKE IT BETTER!" A problem I've heard with Girl Scout Troops is that the program variety (crafts & cookies to 'real scouting' if you will) is MUCH wider then the program variety of Boy Scout Troops (ie good to bad), and sadly MOST Girl Scout Troops lean to the crafts & cookies. A lot of girls come to venturing because SO FEW girl scout leaders are willing/able to provide 'real scouting' (camping, etc), as well as the high training restrictions the GSUSA put on troop leaders before they are allowed to camp or even doing something like canoeing. With Boy Scouts if you don't like a troop's program, there are usually a half dozen others nearby that you could try out, and most will have good programs. In Girl Scouts, a local service team will run ALL the nearby troops the same way, so you'll have to go farther to try to find a 'good troop'. And even then might not from a camping troop vs a 'craft & cookies' on. While dad might be able to get involved as a GS leader, be warned that he may not be allowed to. Some leaders in GS are a bit 'feminazi' like, and are very much anti-male (or atleast anti-male leader). This will very much depend on your local council, and more importantly the local service team your GS Troop is part of. "I don't know about any non-coed agreement between BSA & GSUSA," And why should you? Its not common knowledge. I know of it only because I've been told by professionals and volunteers in a position to be aware of it. I frankly wish it was better known, because maybe people would stop beating up the BSA for not going co-ed, which a good deal of the 'blame' is the GSUSA. "but I DO know that one of BSA's pilot Kinder Lion Scout programs is co-ed. " Never heard of this. Is this an official BSA pilot program, or something being tried out in a local council.

"Silver Beavers for large sums of money!!! I thought that was what the James E. West Fellowship Award was for. Maaabe it's time to pull the crutches out from under some of those good old boys and give them the award they are actually deserving of and not water down the Silver Beaver. " Uh, keep in mind that the Silver Beaver was created back in the 1930s, and the James West has only be around for, what, 10-15 years? (also, there are further level awards for higher amounts, like the Founder's Circle, etc). I have heard that one of the reasons for the West award (and the others awards) was to give recognition for those who give financially to scouting, and cut down on the number of SB being given to such people. While I don't mind the occasional SB being given to someone who have given long-term financial support to the council (and probably sits on the Council Exec Board), I would MUCH rather see it go to the long-time council-level volunteer (who in many cases is ALSO a unit-level volunteer as well).

"I'd change the age groups." The traditional program for 18-25 is Rovers (or Rover Scouts). It, like Venturing, has always been a fairly unstructured program. There are awards, but again, like Venturing, its up to the Rover to persue. Rovers are built around doing service, whether as leaders of the other programs or doing their own service work. The only major change I would do with the age groups is end Boy Scouts at 14. In most countries, boy scouts are 11-14. I would not make them younger. I would leave Varsity Scouts, Venturing, and Sea Scouts as the programs available for those after 14. Leaving Varsity Scouts allows for those 14 and over to do 'boy scouts' at that age. I would only avocate ending Venturing at 18 IF Rover Scouts was put in place for those 18-25. As to co-ed. Am not opposed to it, BUT feel that the CO should have the power to determine if their unit shall be single gender (and what) or co-ed. This would allow for their to be all-male, all-female, and co-ed units at all levels. This allows for choices. For Cub Packs I would say that packs could be co-ed, and allow for single gender & co-ed dens.

Eamonn- This is why you need to get in contact with Sea Scout leaders at the council, area, regional, and national levels. I just help out at council level with sea scouting and I know about a lot of this stuff, because I get on the lists, listen, etc. This is also why its important to get the Sea Scout Officer Specialized training by someone qualified to do so AND go to Sea Badge. Get on the National Sea Scouting Mailing list. Go to seascout.org, the official national sea scout website. Go here for info on all the Sea Scout.org mailing lists: listserv.seascout.org/archives/index.html As to the Sea Scout & USPS agreement, there is an article on the main page of seascouts.org about the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed by the two groups.

Who's the GSA? What's a 'venture crew'? Actually, the GSUSA already had a cow over the BSA taking Exploring co-ed in 1971, after a 2-3 year experiement where the BSA tried to get GSUSA and Camp Fire to merge with them into a single scouting organization ("Scouting/USA"). Due to this, there is apparently an agreement between the BSA & GSUSA that the BSA will NOT take the Cub Scout or Boy Scout programs co-ed. Your idea of the BSA creating an all-girl program for those under 14 is not that new. I know of a couple of people who have proposed that already. I have found that many girls who are 14 and over typically join Venturing Crews or Sea Scout Ships to do the 'scouting' stuff that is pretty much lacking in Girl Scouts. It seems the only respone that the GSUSA had done is the creation of the "Studio 2B" program, which sounds a LOT like the Exploring program of the 70s and 80s. But seems to be very disliked by many girls. (its even less of a 'traditional' program then girl scouts).

Get with the US Power Squadrons! We have a National Agreement with them, and you can get their courses either free or at low cost. I know in my area that several of the leading Sea Scout leaders are also involved with USPS. They are a great resource! Also check out the US Coast Guard Auxilary. While they aren't allowed to charter Sea Scout Ships (unlike the USPS), they are also a good resource.

As far as I know, once a boy has earned the Den Chief Service Award, he may wear the cord until he turns 18. This should be clearly stated in the Den Chief Service Award info in the Den Chief handbook. I thought it would be clear in the Insignia Guide. Guess I'll take a look in it tonight.