emb021

"I never saw the old course. I have staffed two 21st Century and am on staff for a third. The patrols camp together, cook together, eat together, learn together, travel together, do program patrol together, do service patrol together, do a patrol presentation together, etc. They send their PL to the daily troop PLC who reports back to them at their daily patrol meeting. They even create a patrol totem and yell and have an outside patrol meeting between weekends." I went thru the prior Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge in the 80s and staffed a 21st Century one. We did all the above in BSLWB. On the last weekend, all the patrols hiked out and camped by themselves for the night. Then each patrol cooked a dish to bring together for the final dinner.

FYI- When it was JLTC (Junior Leader Training Conference), they had a course at Philmont called NJLIC (National Junior Leader Instructor Camp), which was to prepare youth leaders of council JLTC course. It was hoped that councils would send their future JLTC SPLs to that course. When they replaced JLTC with NYLT (National Youth Leadership Training), the first year they replaced NJLIC with NYLIC. But after that first year they ended NYLIC, instead having NAYLE (National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience). NAYLE was NOT to replace NYLIC in terms of having a training event for NYLT youth staff, but a further leadership experience for youth who went thru NYLT (there have been articles in Scouting about this, as well as info on the National website explaining this). It seemed that the equivlanet to NYLIC was to be done at the Regional level, but am only aware of the NE region doing so, with their Youth Staff Development Course. But AFAIK, no other region has picked it up (go here for more info: http://www.nylt-ysdc.org/) We have course director conferences for WB, Powder Horn and Kodiak/Kodiak-X at the regional levels, so why not NYLT? Anyway. Regarding staff items. Other BSA events do staff items, such as special patches and belt buckles. I've received staff belt buckles for being staff at Jamboree and NOACs, and I believe I've seen NLS & NLATS staff given special buckles as well. I have also seen NLS & NLATS have special staff patches as well. Why National Supply can't produce a special NYLT staff patch and/or buckle, for purchase by councils to present to staff I have no idea. This would make it easy to provide such items and have them be official.

"Why do you need to receive a coin for Wood Badge when you get the leather thong and Beads? "Why can't people simply be satisfied with the level of recognition that comes with course completion? Why do they need to keep piling it on? Critter this, critter that, critter dinners, Wood Badge CSP's, the circle badge around the world scouting badge, enough already . . . I get it you have your Wood Badge!" Dude. Chill out. Loose the attitude. You sound very jealous of those who have attended WB. Like any major course, there are several recognition items. And this is something that I think both you and Gern forget. WOOD BADGE IS A MAJOR COURSE, and for MANY scouters, a major point in their scouting careers. Similiar for some as going to a high adventure base or a jamboree. So, yes, for many people, the various mementos are important to them as a reminder of their experience. Little different then those who go to Philmont and wear the Arrowhead patch on their uniform years later, still wear a Philmont belt and buckle, wear the black bull on their red jacshirt, etc. Or the scouter who still wears a Jambo patch from their youth from 40 years ago. The beads are just one item you get, along with the neckerchief and woggle. You also get a certificate and pocket card. The coin actually serves a purpose, for those who have taken the current course they will understand it. And there are other items you may receive. A course may have a course t-shirt and maybe a hat, maybe also a patch. A course mug. On my course we had a course mug, and the course director signed the bottom with his WB totem. I don't drink coffee, so my mug is put away with all my other WB mementos. Frankly, around here most people just wear the beads. I rarely see the neckerchief (neckerchiefs aren't worn by most people because they are too hot) except for special occasions. I see the rare WBer who might wear something indicating their patrol, or prehaps are still wearing their course patch.

"it the youth are putting in just as much time as the adults, sometimes more if you include the youth going to Philmont for the staffer training" There is no staffer training for NYLT at Philmont. This stopped when NYLT was rolled out a couple of years back. NAYLE is NOT "NYLT Staff training", but a further leadership development course for those who participated in NYLT. I will agree with the issue of no National recognition for NYLT staffers, both youth & adults. I do not agree with the idea of having a knot. There are other options: special patch, special neckerchief, special belt buckle. There are precedents for these with other courses.

"Some believe that you can't count a requirement as completed unless you are taking the merit badge." I'll give you an example where that's nonsense: Camping Merit Badge. You have to complete a certain number of days/nights camping (don't ask me, I don't recall). In my day, most scouts didn't sign up for this merit badge at camp until they had the required days/nights already completed. I did. Most merit badge college events give a list of prerequisites that the scouts need to complete before they come and work on the badges. Without the pre-work done, there is no change of them completing the merit badge. (Please don't start another thread about the 'evils' of MBCs).

dg98adams has the right answer. Some adults continue to wear their WB patrol medallions sewn to their uniforms. As noted, this is incorrect. There are better ways to do this (one guy I knows glued his on the back of his WB leather name tag). Some adults wear other, goofy patrol medallions, such as the 'old rocker' patrol or 'old goat' patrol patches. These, too, are incorrect.

To get an idea of the coins we mean, check out this site: http://www.coinsandpins.com/ they do both recognition coins and geocoins. And Northwest Territorial Mint has started doing Scouting coins, most of which are sold in scout shops: http://www.scoutingcoins.com/

FYI- if you want a coin, you can get one from a Scout Shop. They aren't restricted items. "2) To me the coin seemed kind of flimsy and thin." I have to agree. I know the coins you are refering to. I'm also familiar with the geocoins available out there. Recognition coins and geocoins are often made by the same companies, and come in a variety of forms, but all are VERY well made and substantial. I have no idea why the coins that National makes are so cheesy in comparison.

Well, a little different take I have is that a patch is more valuable to me if: 1) I had to earn it and 2) I couldn't get an additional one (other then doing it again, or somehow getting it off ebay). So, in no particular order, for me its: 1. My original Philmont Arrowhead, which I got back in 1982. Its my standard temporary insignia (worn with the OA 75th Anniversary ribbon and vigil pin) which I'm usually always wearing, unless I temporarily swap it out. 2. My original OA flap. I've worn a lot of OA flaps since I joined. But the one that is valuable to me is my original one, back when my lodge only sold them one per event. Maybe not the best design, but I thought it pretty good. 3. My Sea Base participant patch. I was very upset when I received the Sea Base Weekend participant patch, then returned to Sea Base a few years later and found they were selling them as if they were any other patch. Other ones I value: My Sea Base Conference participant patch, NLS, NLATS patches.

AFAIK, there are no official WB Patrol colors in the US WB courses, and never were. The use of colors to identify patrols was done in the early years of scouting. Usually 2 colors were used, which were what was used for the patrol flashes (color tab pinned to the shoulder seam). With the advent of patrol medallions, these colors went by the side. In some other countries they continued to use the colors, and I think some countries even incorporated these patrol colors into their patrol medallions. If there were official patrol colors, these would be specified in the WB staff guide. They aren't.

One of the new centennial items released is a collection of puzzle emblems (#18175), sold as a set, with BSA emblems from the last 100 years. I find it interesting what they include: * a Rover Scout emblem * a Sea Scout emblem * an Explorer Scout emblem (1940s) * an Explorer emblem (1950s) * a Knights of Dunamis emblem (forerunner to NESA) * 3 Air Scout emblems * an OA emblem- the "mgm indian head" * the only jambo emblem is the 1935 one, the one cancelled. But no Exploring emblems from the 60s or later. And Air Scouts get 3 emblems!!! Here is what the emblems are, going clockwise from the right side of the large first class emblem. Squadron Leader (Air Scout Advisor), adult Explorer Scout patch, a Bicentennial Award [believe Heritage'76], 1935 Jamboree patch, Explorer rating strip (50s), Sea Scouts sweater patch (30s/40s), Varsity/Venture letter, Flaming Arrow patrol medallion, Arrow of Light, Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow, WWII War Service patch, Knights of Dunamis, Air Scout Aeronautics merit badge, Boy Scout World Conservation Award, Venturing logo, original Schiff Scout Reservation patch, Air Scout Ace patch, original Den Mother emblem, original Leadership Corps patch, BSA contingent patch to early World Jamborees, Cub Scout Wolf patch, Tiger Cubs strip, Rover Scout emblem, Lone Scouts emblem (older standing indian one), Woodcarving Merit badge, BSA 25 year veteran patch, Webelos den patch, old Camping merit badge, old red/white council strip, original Philmont 'dollar' patch with 2 segments. Am fairly certain I'm correct. But if not, chime in.

I found if you go to the on-line Scout Stuff catalog, go into "Collector's Corner" and go into "BSA2010" you'll see a LOT of Centennial items I hadn't seen popup in the 'new' section. I see a lot of stuff I want. Several that are too expensive! They have the backpatch, neckerchief, belt buckle and more.

"The Ring for around the World crest" This patch has been discussed on other threads. I got one for my collection. Have no plans to put it on any of my uniforms... "The temp patch item#18143, a good looking square patch, fully embrodered, will wear it on my Den Leader shirt for school recruitment night, but not the ring as well. There is another one with places to dangle mini ribbons, hope to avoid that one." The temp patch has been out for some time. I have one in my growing centennial collection. There is a neckerchief slide out. A neckerchief is supposed to be coming soon. Uh, why avoid the Year of Celebration patch? The ribbons are for the 5 awards people can earn as part of this program. A change from all the patch awards during the 75th. I plan on working on them. Not sure I'll wear the patch that often.

"1) Smokes pocket on the left sleeve. IF you really needed a smokes pocket, and you don't, at least put it on the right sleeve where a POR emblem doesn't go on top of it." Its not a 'smokes pocket'. So let's not call it that. If you think the pocket is dumb, that's one thing. Actually, I wonder if they intentionaly put it there to ensure people put the POR emblem in the right location. Too many times I've seen people doing it wrong on the left sleeve, from too much space between the patches, to pushing the POR right up against the CSP. "3) BUTTONS on the front pockets, esp. since the current temp patch button is worthless." Agree. The temp patch button, without buttoning it, will mean people will loose temp patches that are hanging. Sewing on the patch is not a answer. Being able to easily swap out patches is a good thing. And no button on the left pocket makes it impossible to wear a powder horn award there, which is where it belongs. "4) Needs a BSA strip or direct embroider. the stickers do come off. 5) Ditto the Flag, either direct embroider or patch it." Agree. Dispite the claims of how the BSA strip is 'real durable', have already seen examples where letters are coming off. And I really wish the BSA would have the shirts come with the World Crest already sewn in the right location. That would really help ensure people wear it correctly. If some have to move it, they can do so. "6) and this one is more instruction oriented than uniform apparel, GIVE CLEAR CONCISE ISNTRUCTIONS, I.E. ISSUE AN INSIGNIA GUIDE AND/OR INSPECTION SHEET TELLING US WHAT COLOR PATCHES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WORN!" Again, no argument there. The whole confusion as to what unit numbers/trained strips should be worn by CS leaders was a whole mess. Not helped by the claim of red/tan numbers. Now I'm seeing Venturing people incorrectly using the green/tan numbers. Sigh. There was a reason we went to red/white for everyone back in the 50s.

"One thing i really like and would like to know more about is College Scouter Reserve. I'm not quite sure what that is and i would like to know more if anyone has any information about it, is it a council thing or does national actually recognize it. I dont want to spark a whole new debate so ill just as this on this forum, but what would be the proper uniform for someone who is in College Scouter Reserve?" CSR still exists. Its just a means for scouts off to college to keep their registration, but just not with their home unit. There is nothing about a 'proper uniform' for them AFAIK. Am sure if you wore your scout uniform, that would be fine. I guess one could remove unit numbers and office patches, and leave the rest alone.

Is Michigan State University within the boundaries of this new council? I had heard that the council MSU was in was having problems when I was at NOAC. The next NOAC (2012) will be there.

"Are you sure that's not just the old ODL design?" Its not. I saw one at NOAC. The only difference between this one and the 'regular' centennial uniform was the lack of the sleeve pocket and bellow pockets on the front. * buttons are the tan ones, not the old brown ones. * back has the bellows. (whatever they are called). * flaps on the front pockets have buttons, but are behind the flap, so they don't show (like the regular shirt). Still has the sew down on the left pocket for pen/pencil. * believe the flag and BSA strip are done the same way as the centennial shirt.

Here is my more complete comments on the historical companion. 1907. Publication of "Scouting for Boys" is included under 1907. Belive it was published in early 1908. 1910. Notes the BSA being established by Boyce in February of that year, and goes on about Seton and Beard etc. This is a little incorrect. Seton, Beard et al didn't get involved until later that year, when Robinson worked to setup the BSA organization. As written, it gives the impression everything got setup in February. 1915. Notes that the OA, "Scouting Honor Society" is established. Yes, the OA was established, but it wouldn't become "Scouting's Honor Society" until later. 1923. Notes that the Charles Sommers Canoe Base is folded into the Northern Tier programs. Uh. Not quite. It started as the Region X Canoe Trails in that year. The name "Charles Sommers Canoe Base" came several decades later. And the term "Northern Tier" several decades after that. If it had said Charlie Base was established that year and later became part of the Northern Tier programs it would have been more accurate. 1933. BSA "esablished Exploring Program". Not quite. They establish Explorer Scouts. It wouldn't be called Exploring until much later. terminology is important, because the programs were changed along with the name changes. And they made a mistake to illustrate this with a 1940s Explorer uniform guide. 1935. "Senior Scouting becomes a program for older boys". No mention that Senior Scouting pulled together Sea Scouts, Explorer Scouts, and later Air Scouts... 1939. Notes establishment of Air Scouts, and says it continues to 1949. Not quite. What happened was Air Scouts became Air Explorers in 1949 and the program would continue pretty much unchanged until 1965. 1949. Says that "Explorer Scouting grew out of Senior Scouting program". Again, not quite. Explorers replaced Senior Scouting. The term "Explorer Scout" was dropped in favor of Explorers. 1959. Notes that Exploring came into existance. However, they illustrate this with the post-1998 Exploring logo, and a "Circle-V" logo with a post-1998 "Big E", when there should be a fdl in the center. 1967. World Jamboree. Wish they used a picture of a real WJ patch, rather then a poorly done repro. 1971. Maine High Adventure base established. Too bad they illustrate this with a picture of people by the Northern Tier sign... 1972. NESA established. Would have been nice to note that it replaced the Knight of Dunamis... 1976. Bicenntennial. Would have liked to have seen the BSA Bicentennial patches shown... 1982. Notes the Oscar De La Renta uniform. HOWEVER, it came out in 1981!! I had to wear to the 81 Jamboree... 1984. We can't show a Varsity Scout logo? 1985. We can't show the BSA 75th logo? 2002. Notes the BSA National Museum setup in Irving. Uh, why no mention of Schiff or the prior 2 national museums???

Basically, your 'ticket' is a set of goals (the minimum is 5, hence why you hear references to '5 tickets', its actually 5 goals that make up your ticket) which YOU work out with your troop guide/coach counselor on how YOU will apply what you learned in Wood Badge to YOUR job in scouting. I believe one goal is to be about 'diversity'. Ideally, your WB course will give you information on how to do your ticket goals, and hopefully can give you guide, suggestions, and examples. They will give you templates to fill out to define your 5 goals. You should lead the final day of the course with those worked out, tho I think most people will put together their final, written goals, within a couple of weeks afterwards. Tickets must be completed between 6 & 18 months after your course, so keep that in mind. Beyond that I'm not sure I want to go into, as your course will handle the rest, and I don't want to contradict what they might say.

AFAIK, 18 is NOT a dividing line within Venturing for anything, including housing. Its 21. Now, in the OA, where you are a youth until 21, the 18 dividing line DOES cause a problem with housing. At NOACs we have to deal with 4 groups: under 18 boys, 18-21 boys, adult male (21 and older) and adult females.

There are no uniform police. I don't think most would care if your two knots are centered or to the side. What you might get commented by are other common mistakes of knots: * wearing them upside down. (noticable on certain knots) * wearing devices incorrectly. * wearing duplicate knots (saw someone with 2 scouter's keys).

"does anyone know if the Campfire Girls (aka Campfire, as it's now co-ed) has more of an outdoors program than has the Girl Scouts?" the organization is now called "Campfire USA". Its been co-ed since 1975, and for awhile was "Campfire Boys & Girls". I do know that they still do camping and the like, but can't tell you how much camping is a part of their program, or just an option that the local unit may or may not do.

I bet none of the National/Regional OA officers or Venturing officers are REGISTERED primarily as national people. (I wonder if they are even registered at all as a national volunteer or the like) Yet they all wear gold loops and appropriate office patches when performing their positions. Using kahits example, if he got 3 separate uniforms with the appropriate insignia and loops, and worn them when he is doing those jobs, no one would bat and eye. But if he mixed things (red loops while wearing an OA Chapter Officer patch or silver loops while wearing a SM patch) THEN people might comment and wonder. (I saw female OA advisor at NOAC, don't recall what level, wearing the tan centennial uniform with spruce venturing loops and her OA office patch. what a combo!) I know of a DE who is also a Crew Associate advisor. When doing her job as a pro, she wears her pro uniform. When being a crew adult, she wears that uniform. If this was an issue, am sure one of the pros (including her boss) would have said something...

"1) Part of Council Executive Board. Our OA Lodge Chief is part of the CEB and does wear silver when doing OA duties." Council Venturing Presidents (ie, the youth leader of your VOA, or whatever you call it), should also be part of the CEB. Am working on making that happen in my council. As to the Eagle/AOL knots, I agree with BS on that.

"when I hear about the proposed merger of the GSUSA and BSA, I always hear it was the Girl Scouts who backed out, anybody confirm or deny?" I really wish that those involved with this would sit down and write up what happened. But we all know how well the BSA is in terms of transparency and openedness... Everything I've heard is that it was the GSUSA that backed out. One has to wonder what brought them to the table, and what might have lead to a breakdown. What was Camp Fire's part in this, other then another participant in the talks? Keep in mind that it happened 40 years ago! For myself, the changes in attitude by those in charge of GSUSA makes a merger today unlikely, unless as a result of a WOSM-WAGGGS merger (and then we may just do a 'federation' like in some European countries. What I think is more likely is that the BSA may just go co-ed in the other programs. But there are issues with doing that, including a supposed agreement with GSUSA not to do this (something I've heard the GSUSA demanded after the BSA took Exploring co-ed, but have never seen this rumoured agreement).