emb021

"Being responsible does not necessarily mean knowledgeable" 'responsible' in this case means he had a major hand in writing and developing the program. That, IMO, means being knowledgable. We're not taking about someone who just signed off on stuff. "ask yourself why did National just restructure the sea scout National board if they were not planning an eventual split?" Sorry, but a restruction IMO does not mean an eventual split. I think some are reading waaay too much into things. One could say the same thing about the OA, as its now no longer under the Boy Scout Committee, which was the main reason given why they wouldn't allow it to go co-ed and vote in male & female venturers.

"Just because Bill Evans tells you something on the phone doesn't make it correct or even official BSA policy." Well, considering that Bill Evans was the #2 pro of the Venturing Division, and one of 2 pros responsible for the Venturing program (along with a handful of volunteers), he's pretty correct about the Venturing program. IMO, he's one of only 2-3 pros I feel understands the program because he is responsible for the program.

"when you have a ship with a crew dressed in naval uniforms displaying ranks mirroring their military counterparts, running drills, giving and executing orders given by superior officers,etc., and then say it is not paramilitary what else would you call it? Heck even the Sea Scout manual is set up like a US Navy operations manual The only sea scout units I have witnessed that are similiar at all to Venturing are the ones who are "ragbaggers", sailboaters with no ranks or uniform, other than a tshirt or polo shirt, no ranks or drills just having fun on the water." Buffalo Skipper pretty much said a lot that I was going to say, so I won't repeat it, but will comment on your comments about ships. I think few ships follow your first example here. If I saw a ship following your second example (the 'ragbaggers'), I'd frankly speak to them and tell them they really should be a Venturing Crew with an aquatic focus. If they aren't going to use the advancement, office structure, and even the basics of a sea scout uniform, they really aren't even using the basics of sea scouts, and should be a Venturing Crew instead. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb, but frankly all the ships I've dealt with, and I think most of the ships (if not all of the ships) in my region fall halfway between these 2 examples. They are not rigid, 'junior navy rotc'-type units you seem to think sea scouting is. They use the advancement program. They have sea scout uniforms (maybe not navy crackerjacks, may have white crackerjacks for formal things, but usually have either white summer uniforms &/or chambray blue work uniforms for the youth), they use the basic sea scout program and structure and come to sea scout regattas and such.

"when I went to a joint Venturing/Sea Scout leadership event recently what I relayed in my last post seemed to be how the sea scout leaders present viewed the recent reorganization, and they seem to be under the impression that they now are seperate from Venturing even though the National Office has the same people overseeing both programs." Sadly, there are a lot of Sea Scout leaders out there who think that Venturing and Sea Scouting are separate, DISPITE what is said (prehaps not as clearly as it should be) in the letter click23 cited. The Sea Scout leaders in one council within my region are running around with this idea in their heads, and I even asked our Regional Commodore about this. He agree with what's in the letter: Sea Scouting is still part of Venturing. He seemed to roll his eyes about the leaders in that one council, seeming to indicate they've always been a bit of a problem. But, this is just one of several things I'm going to ask the national leadership at the upcoming BSA Meeting.

Staff members got sent their first staff patch around the end of the year. I got mine then. These were sent out by National to EVERYONE who registered for staff, regardless of if you had been accepted or not. (a change from the past, as prior you didn't get your first until you had been accepted and made your first down payment). Members of council contingents get their patch (1 or 2, am not certain) from the councils. Not sure if they've been sent their patches or the schedule of when they do. I would think they would have gotten them by know, but just don't know. I have yet to see any youth wear the jambo patch except youth staff. So, not sure if you are speaking about STAFF members or council contingent members.

"I think that the Sea Scouts should have their own skipper award and not qualify for the advisor award for two reasons." I think they should develop a separate set of requirements for skippers to received a 'skipper award of merit'. "Sea Scouting has been trying to gain their independence from Venturing for a long time now and with the new reorganization have seperated the two groups and they should be seperate groups." Sorry, but untrue. Some in Sea Scouting would like Sea Scouting to be totally separate from Venturing. Won't happen. While the program divisions are gone, and the national sea scout committee was re-purposed and moved, Sea Scouting STILL remains a part of Venturing. This is little different from when Sea Scouting was pulled into the Senior Scout Division back in 1935. "Second, most sea scout ships are run like paramilitary groups following naval rules and the skipper is the CO, unlike Venturing Crew Advisors who advise and guide not command behaviors or tasks as a skipper does. The two positions are diametrically opposed to each other." Sorry, but untrue. There may be SOME ships out there that run like that, but most that I am aware of aren't like that. The position of Skipper, even back in the 30s and 40s, wasn't that much different from the equivalent positions of Post Advisor and Squadron Leader. The leadership within Ships, like Crews (and for that matter, scout troops) has long been in the hands of the youth leaders (aka 'petty officers' in some regions). "So Sea Scouts need to be independant simply because their program is NOT the Venturing program pure and simple. Emb021 you know what I mean if you are the expert at Venturing you claim to be." Sorry, but just don't agree. And my understanding of the history of the programs doesn't back up your view, IMO. There may be some ships out there like what you describe, but I think the vast majority of ships aren't like that, and I would wonder how many Sea Scouts would want to be in such ships. I would wonder how many of the national sea scout leadership would agree with your views?

"emb021, That is just confusing, but with some of the stuff that has came out of Texas recently, I have no doubt what you said is correct." Yes it confusing. I had several on-line conversations with Bill Evans about it. I said several times it needs to be changed/clarified, which he agreed, but he wasn't able to get the PTB to do so. Considering all the 'discussions' I seen on-line which came about because of strange/unclear statements and policies in BSA documents that never seem to get changed, you'd think the BSA would do a better job of it. But I guess they just don't see those as issues that need correcting.

Have to agree with Buffalo Skipper's points. Since if you receive a Venturing Leadership Award, its appropriate to wear the sea scout device on the knot to indicate which one(s), and you wear a sea scout device on the scouter's key and scouter's training award to indicate earning it as a sea scout leader, I don't see a problem with a skipper wearing the device on the advisor award of merit knot.

"Accutally, according to the youth application, some can stay a youth until their 22nd birthday." They stay members of their crew, but they stop being youth. Advancement stops at 21. They can't hold youth positions. Area, Regional and National positions can't be held if you are over 21 during your term of office. I've several times spoken with Bill Evans at National and said that needs to be clarified.

Oh, I should point out that Buffalo Skipper's posting about Venturing recognition is spot on. (tho I think you meant 'sea scouts' not 'sea scouters'). Sadly, too many scouters just don't understand the subtle details of it, even some who are involved in the program. I had one scouter on-line who jumped all over me claimed I was wrong for basically stating what Skipper says here.

"So if I write "Venturing Patrol," it's the internet equivalent of scratching fingers along a chalkboard , eh?? " Yup. Along with writing "Venture Crew", "Venture Scout" & "Venturing Scout" ""Venturing" is the name for the BSA's program for youth 14-18, formed into Crews. These youth, btw, are called "Venturers". " "Since we're all posting in the spirit of accuracy, it's 14-21. But I'm willing to 'venture' that the "18" was just the brain and the fingers not in sync." Yup. Fair catch, tho its probably better to say 14-20, as they age out at 21 (you can argue whether saying 14-21 means until they turn 21, or thru the age of 21).

"- What is the difference between a "Venturing Crew" and a "Venturing Patrol?"" Ok, first lets get some terms correct. "Venturing" is the name for the BSA's program for youth 14-18, formed into Crews. These youth, btw, are called "Venturers". "Venture" is the name for the BSA's optional program for Boy Scout troops where they organize their older boys (13 and up) into a special patrol. The boys in these patrols are called "boy scouts". Despite the name similiarity, these are SEPARATE PROGRAMS. As noted, a Venturing Crew is a separate unit from a Cub Scout Pack, Boy Scout Troop, Varsity Scout Team, and Sea Scout Ship. A Venture Patrol is just another patrol within a troop. "- Is it necessary to start a different organization, which would involve convincing the CO to sponsor yet another group (or finding a different CO), or can they be an addendum to the existing Troop?" Venturing Crews are ALWAYS separate units from troops. Running them as some kind of addendum to the troop is rarely successful. They are then little more then a Venture Patrol. The Crew can have the same CO as the troop, BUT needs to have their own adult Crew Committee and have their own separate identity from the troop to be truly successful. This means the crew needs to have its own adult leadership, meet at a separate time from the troop and have its own events separate from the troop (none of this cr*p of making the crew build its program around what the troop is doing and the like). "- If they are part of the existing Troop (if that's even possible), would they still be able to include female members? (one or two of the boys in the patrol have close-in-age sisters who want to join)." Again, Crews ARE separate from Troops. Crews can be co-ed, but that is a decision of the chartered organization. I know of all-male crews and I guess there could be all-female crews. "- How hard is it to continue working toward Eagle after joining a Venturing Crew? Is this too much? I read somewhere that boys who are First Class or higher when they become Venturers can continue working on Eagle requirements without having to stay active in a troop in addition to the Crew; but it wasn't an "official" source so I don't know how accurate that was. My son's not sure he's going to want to stay active in both a troop and a crew, primarily because of time commitments." You have stated the official policy: boys in a crew who have earned atleast first class can go on an earn Star, Life, and Eagle in their crew WITHOUT being registered in a troop. As noted, advancement is NOT a method of Venturing. While we like to see crews use the VENTURING advancement program (Bronze-Gold-Silver, along with the expert awards of Ranger, Quest, and TRUST), they do NOT have to build their program around earning them. Crews certainly shouldn't build their program around earning Eagle (uh, what about the girls in their crew who CAN'T earn it?). If the YOUTH want to build their crew program around earning the Venturing awards, that is their choice. It should NOT be dictated by the adults. "- What about OA? My son and all the members of his patrol are in the OA." Boys who are in the OA can remain in the OA while members of Crews. You just can't have elections in the Crew. To remain in the OA, you just need to maintain membership in the BSA. Being registered in a Crew will do this. "- How does uniforming work for a Venturer who is also a Boy Scout and/or is working on ranks toward Eagle and/or is in the OA? Two separate uniforms?" Venturing doesn't have uniforming as a method. Venturing is also more flexible in that we allow each crew to decided what THEIR uniform shall be. The green/gray Venturing uniform is an option (and is the official bsa venturing uniform), but is not required. As noted, the tan BSA uniform may NOT be worn by Venturers. I have found that most Venturers who are involved in the OA and doing other BSA stuff want a uniform and will wear the green/gray Venturing uniforms (please note, despite what some say you should wear charcoal gray pants or shorts with the green shirt, BUT they need NOT be from National Supply. 'choice your uniform' doesn't mean you get to decided to wear different pants/shorts with the green shirt.) I see many crews who have members wearing the green shirt, and other times are wearing t-shirts, polos and the like.

I guess you never saw the OA boxers they used to sell... And, what is the source of this information, btw?

Ok, so you're going to the PTC. Here is the equipment list for PTC: http://www.scouting.org/highadventure/philmont/ptc/equipment.aspx Info on PTC is here: http://www.scouting.org/HighAdventure/Philmont/PTC.aspx Yes, take 'class a' and 'class b' uniforms. While everyone will be in one of those uniforms, its fairly relaxed. You will probably be doing some active geocaching, so prepare for day hikes in NM (day pack, first aid kit, good boots, sunscreen, hat, water bottle, etc.). Bring your GPSr. And a good camera. It can rain, so prepare for that. It can get cool in the evening, so prepare for that. It can be hot and sunny, so prepare for that. You will be housed in large wall tents with cots (with matresses) and a light. So pillow/bedding will be needed (it can get cool in the evening). They have wifi, so you can bring your laptop. You will get a chance to check out the area on wednesday. Expect to get souvenirs at the trading post.

Typically, where going to PTC or the high adventure base, you are usually provided with a list of recommended items to bring. Take a look at them.

I've never heard of a troop (or crew) which shut down for the summer (packs, yes). Sure, some kids will not be there for a week or two because of family vacations, but most troops still have their program, and will use summer for their week of summer camp, week-long 'high adventure' or similiar trips and the like. (same for crews).

"When exactly are we to switch over?" When ever you want to. There is no mandate to require everyone to switch to the new uniform. the assumption is that it will happen over time as new scouts come in and only have that uniform, people outgrow the old one, etc.

"Aron Ralston's crushing experience and loss of an arm was terrible would have been significantly if not completely mitigated had he been with a buddy. No doubt about that. But the guy still hikes solo!" FWIW, I've read some comments about Ralston from people who 1) know him and 2) are themselves outdoor experts. The gist I got was they felt he needlessly put himself into dangerous situations. This wouldn't have happened had he had a buddy.

"The WFA requirment is for one person to be certified, correct, or is it for everyone?" One person is all that is required.

"What are your thoughts on having a camporee dedicated entirely on seeing how many meritbadges the boys can earn in a weekend, with prizes going to that effect?" Bad idea. Most merit badges can't be earned in a weekend. Most of the better run merit badge weekends make it very clear that most of the merit badges require some amount of pre-work, and there is no guarantee that the boy will earn any/all merit badges he works on. He does need to complete the requirements, after all. Otherwise he'll just get a partial.

Eagle92 is correct in his comments. The Venture/Venturing confusion has been a pain in our *ss for over ten years. This had lead to nonsense like Venture Patrols thinking they can wear the forest green Venturing shirts, or people saying that the 'venture patrol is just venturing in the troop'. I wonder how many people think venture patrol members can earn venturing advancement?

"Regarding the wearing of medals (Religous, PWD, Regatta, etc.), popular belief (from the web and several old Scouters) is that medals should only be worn on special occasions." Its not so much policy as just good sense. Medal are for formal occasion. that's why we have knots and patches and such to wear day to day.

"That's not hot-glue on the badges? I've been heating plastic to the melting point with my wife's iron? THAT stain isn't coming out." Yup. It's not hot-glue. It's plastic. Back when I used to try to use Stickwitchery, I used to have to remove the plastic from the back, because SW wouldn't stick to the plastic, just cloth. But too often the patches would come lose in the dryer and I'd be re-attaching them. (plus SW left a mess behind. Could be removed to a degree, thankfully, but still. Always wondered how Badge Magic worked, but after the disaster of SW, am not interested in trying...) So I eventually took them to my aunt (who sews) to sew them down with her sewing machine. "I sew all my patches but for the life of me get them on straight. I've learned that if I staple them in position, I can hold the shirt up, check the position, then stitch around the patch. Unfortunately, from time to time I miss removing one or two of the staples." I do the same thing. I found trying to use straigh pins just doesn't do it. The patch usually bowes from the pin. Staples (1, 2, or 3, depending on the size) does a good job of keeping the patch flat against the cloth, then I sew it down by hand. Its that or I'd have to take it to a seamstress or our local Scout Shops and pay someone to do it. Pass. I'll do it myself while watching tv.

"I don't see the nemat hike mentioned in the oa handbook or anywhere on the national web site." The Niamit hike is called the Brotherhood Hike, and is covered i the "Guide to Inductions" on the National website.

"I don't see the nemat hike mentioned in the oa handbook or anywhere on the national web site." The Niamit hike is part of the 'extended elangomat program', whereby the elangomats work with the members of their clan after the Ordeal as their 'niamat', and helps them become Brotherhood.