emb021

"I've not yet seen a commish wear unit numbers" On occasion, I see commissioners, and district & council volunteers who still wear their unit numbers.

Haven't seen such a patch. Was it issue by the BSA or LNT? AFAIK, the LNT strip you mention was issued by LNT.

Rank can not be taken back. If the BOR was held, and everything else was signed off, that's it. Its approved. If there was an issue with his role as Den Chief, this should have been brought up before hand, ideally during the SM conference or before he was signed off for the leadership role item. What business does this committee member have to call the cubmaster or den leader. He/she overstepped their bounds.

I also live in Florida. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a scout or scouter in a long sleeve shirt. I've actually seen more long sleeve shirts of the new 'centennial' style then the prior ones. As to room for the arrowhead. Unless you have an oversized CSP, I've not seen a short-sleeved scouter shirt that didn't have room for the CSP, office patch, trained strip, and arrowhead. At a minimum, you could move the office patch up a little.

"BSA lawyers would disagree with you." So? They are wrong to use that term. And I'll be happy to say that to their faces. They don't understand what a "religious organization" is, and should never had used that term.

"BSA is not a religous organization. (false) " Actually, its true. The BSA is NOT a religious organization. Yes, we require members to have a religious belief (just as Masons require a belief in God). But that doesn't make us a 'religious organization'. 'religious organizations' push/promote a PARTICULAR religious belief. The BSA does not.

"So nonmembers Elect the Scout/Scouter to be recruited as a AO Hopefull. I was wondering how they(the OA) selected the quality of their members? " The OA does not select the members. Non-members elect new OA members. Again, speak with local arrowmen. Are there no arrowmen in your unit? Sounds to me like you have a LOT of misconceptions/preconceived notions. And you don't seem too willing to set them aside and learn what the OA is really about. The OA has been around since 1915. If it wasn't a good program, it wouldn't still exist.

I heard there is a new National pr campaign being done, that would showcase all the programs. Maybe this is it? Maybe they are testing it there.

Adding to what jr56 said. The OA started as the Honor Camper Society. It recognizes those campers who best exhibilifies the principles of scouting. Unlike most honor groups, NON-MEMBERS are the ones who elect/select the members. Today, the OA is Scouting's Honor Society. Its a service organization devoted to the concept of servant leadership. The OA does service in the local councils (usually a LOT of stuff at the local camps) and now in the local community. A couple of years ago it did a major national project with the US Forest Service. The OA fields service groups at the National Jamboree, and many times will do the same sort of thing for local camporees. The OA also has a lot of great leadership development programs beyond the standard TLT/NYLT/NAYLE. Benefit? There are many. For the councils they get a group of youth and adults who do service within the council and to the camp. For the youth they get a chance to work with other scouts from within their program, and get a chance to lead their fellow scouts at the council, section, region and national levels. They get to do service beyond their troops, further leadership training, and more. For adults, they get to work with other adults and youth in a different many then in a troop. This can be very confusing, which is why we recommended you chat with local arrowmen in person.

The OA has a website. Have you checked it out? http://www.oa-bsa.org/ Have you spoken to Arrowmen in your council?

"the report from that meeting was that the Goshen jambo site is dead, but what was advertised as the east coast high advanture site on the New River in West Virginia is a done deal and that plans are being made to have jambo there in '13." The Goshen deal has been dead for a couple of months. It was made public in early August. As noted the WV HA base is a done deal. What some still question is if the Jambo will be there as well. What I've heard is additional lands were or will be purchased next to the site for this. btw, the National Commissioner is Tico Perez.

Regarding the regions. the date I heard was the first of the year. Its just that the region offices are closing, the Regional directors and some other regional staff are being moved to the National Office. Regions still exist. Area-level people will stay where they are (they work out of home from what I've heard). The 2013 @ APHill is a new rumor I've only heard recently.

"However, I think using the official uniform would be a great way to promote Venturing since it's so new." This is why I and others always wear the Venturing uniform at scouting events. And at 11 years, Venturing isn't that new. Especially as its a continuation of the Exploring program that dates back to the 1930s and went co-ed in 1971...

"Apparently someone in Supply thought these were a "good idea" " Yes, but they did this only after local councils started to make and sell them. Interesting they are marked as 'not for uniform wear'. As you note, because they are sort-of flap shaped, boys usually wear it there. At least until they join the OA... In my day, if you violated the rules of Totin' Chip, you'd loose a corner of the card. If you lost all four you had to re-earn the card. Kind of hard to do that if you're giving the kid a patch... (please don't start on the right or wrong of taking corners...)

"Technically, you only wear the extra beads during the course. Once it is over you're supposed to go back to the two beads." FWIW, I have been told that per the rules of the prior WB course (Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge during the 70s, 80s, and 90s) was that 3 & 4 beads were to be worn only for a short period of time after a course (18 months?) unless one staff another course. I have no idea if this was truly a policy of the old course or yet another WB 'urban legend'. Keep in mind that under the rules of this course, it was very hard to get new people as staffers/CD, so it was many times staffers repeatedly staffed. Such a rule/policy does NOT exist in the current course. I know, as I have the syllabi. "Those "tiny small OA sashes" are not official, but could be worn in place of a temporary patch, I guess. Official would be the red/white ribbon dangle with the metal arrow on the end (aka, "pocket rocket"). " FYI- be careful of slang terms. I ran into someone on-line who used the term 'pocket rocket' NOT for the ribbon dangle, but for the mini-OA sash patches. Several of us had a hard time figuring out what he was refering to. Go figure.

"but hey as least they have an official uniform *nudging Venturing* I've always been a fan of Scout uniforms." Uh, Venturing DOES have an official uniform. Its the spruce green shirt with loops & insignia, and charcoal gray pants or shorts. If you check out the National Venturing cabinet, all the members wear it. We just don't MANDATE that crews use this. But in my experience, most crews do use it, at least for their formal uniform. When you're out doing outdoor activities, its not usually worn. But then boy scouts do the same thing.

Totin' Chip, Firemen Chit don't really have patches. they are cards. the patches were created by local scouters to give the little kids who earn the cards something. Any Venturer can earn the Paul Bunyan Award. Its for more advanced skills with ax & hatchet.

"Despite the headaches, extra amounts of training, and paranoia that it would 'cause me, there are times that I wish that the Boy Scouts of America, like Boy Scouting organizations in some other countries, would allow girls to join." The BSA does allow girls to join. Venturing is co-ed. What the BSA does that other scouting orgs doesn't, is overlap the program. In other countries, the equivalent to scout troops ends at 14 or so, and the youth have to then move into the next section for 14-18 age youth. If Boy Scout Troops ended at 14 or 15, that would really help.

As OGE noted, there IS structure IF the members of the crew want it. Venturing has an advancement program of Bronze, Gold and Silver, plus the expert awards of Ranger, Quest, and TRUST. Some youth go after those, some don't. Most crews don't structure their program to earn them, some do. There are Venturers who get some of the awards, get all of them, and get none of them. But all enjoyed themselves in Venturing. Venturing is dealing with a different age group them most troops. We are dealing with high school & college age youth, who many timed don't want a rigid structure where others are dictating what they should do. As to crews. Crews that survive and thrive are those who work to make themselves known and recruit new people. The ones who die are usually the ones formed by a group of friends who treat the crew as their private club, with no interest to get others involved. When they get bored or age out, it dies.

While the on-line Insignia Guide has not been updated, the in print one has been. Also, the on-line Commissioner's Newsletter gives the info on the latest issue. On the "ODL" uniform, the arrowhead is worn below the trained strip, which is itself below the office patch. On the new "centennial" uniform, the arrowhead is worn below the CSP. As noted, commissioners DON'T wear unit numbers, so that's not a problem.

"Is there a tracking sheet to go along with this? I have started making one through excell but haven't finished." You mean a tracking sheet to track the progress of everyone within a group? Nope.

I pulled out my Leadership Corps booklets from my library to check. There were 2 versions, the original one done in 1972 (#6503) and the revised one done in 1987 (#6503A). The text of both are almost the same. The 1972 edition gives the leadership corps the option to wear the green shirt and green slacks with the red beret. They had to wear the "scouts bsa" strip. This option, AFAIK, NEVER extended to adults working with the corps. The 1987 edition says the leadership corps will wear the same uniform as the rest of the troop. SO, the 1987 edition does NOT give the leadership corps the right to wear the green Explorer shirt with red loops, just as I said (and noted at my website). I never saw such a policy in writing. As noted, when the explorer shirt was dropped and then brought back, the right of the LC to wear it didn't come back.

"in my opinion scouting was originally based on two things, military survival (British training for youth entering the military) and Christian beliefs." That's your opinion. A good reading of the history of the program will show that's not so. And there is nothing 'politically correct' about that. "Duty to God" mearly means doing your religious duties, whatever they may be. The mistake many people make on both sides of the arguement is that it refers to the Christian God or the Judeo-Christian God.

"My circa 1987 Leadership Corps book does mention the green and red combination. I say circa 1987 as that is when the round LC patch came out and that is shown in the book instead of teh LC trapezoid. I'll double check tonite for you." 1987 was when the 'second edition' of the book came out (new cover artwork) and the round LC patch. I have that book and recall nothing said about using the green shirt. I have both editions of the LC booklet. I also have an interesting card in my collection with both strips and instructions on which one to use. "Also sorry about the confusion. Yep this guy is a serious collector/historian. You may have seen him at NOAC as I believe he was on the museum staff. That or OATC exhibit staff as he is one of the Founding Fathers of OATC." Sadly I was never able to get over to the Museum @ NOAC. Was hoping to do so the last day, but then they switched our schedule for The Experience, and I couldn't get over there. "What you think about changing venturing's loop colors to maroon?" Be a problem to get people to switch over would be my feeling. Had they done it from day one, may have worked. But considering how some troops are making their own red loops, I wonder how some in Venturing would react.

"be adviswed that the first batch of patches has been recalled, or at least that wis what the local council told me when I went to buy a few more." Maybe because of the button loop. I thought it looked very flimsy.