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All Out for Scouting preceded the 9th ed BSHB. I actually got the syllabus for AOFS (sadly missing the bulk of 2 of the Operations), and a small pamplet on it, and have scanned a few articles on AOFS from Scouting magazine that's on my website. All Out For Scouting was a new training initative that came out in 1975. It was to run a whole year and consisted of several training events. The overall purpose was to create better scouting for boys thru improved programming and better trained leaders (both youth and adults). AOFS consisted of 7 "Operations". #1 Operation: Launch, which gathered all adult leaders (SM, ASM, TC, etc) to review the AOLS plan. #2 Operation Triple-T (Train-the-Trainer), an all-day training even for those responsible for adult training. #3 Operation Brownsea Double-Two, a week-long training event for SPLs to help them be better leaders, give them scoutcraft skills, and prepare them to run Operation Flying Start. #4 Operation Flying Start, an all-day training event for all boy leaders and adult leaders. #5 Operation Go, Silver Bars! isn't an event, so much as its the home troops/patrols putting into practice over several months what has been learned, using the patrol method and the activities learned. Meeting goals earned them AOFS awards. #6 Operation All Out For Training, makes available to adult leaders any training in specific areas needed. #7 Operation Hit the Goal! is the second major climax of AOFS, which could be a camporee, showando, or other major council event. Part of this is recognition for units and leaders for achieving the goals of AOFS. And the idea was that this would all be repeated the next year. AFAIK, AOFS existed for a few years in many councils, to eventually be replaced by new training. Many councils have continued to call their JLTC/NYLT course "Brownsea Double-2" because of AOFS. Some have even confused "Brownsea Double-2" with JLTC and AOFS as a whole. Also, check out the articles on AOFS in the following issues of Scouting (all at my website): October 1974 (gives a good overview, which I skimmed thru above) OctNovDec 1975 (another overview, give the chart showing the connections between the Operations) JanFeb 1977 (focuses on Detroit's use of the program, says half the councils have run it, and many more are planning to do so in 77) my website is www.seniorscoutinghistory.org. Go to the Archives, which is off the main page. Also, the Pine Tree website has a page on Brownsea Double 2 that may help you as well.

AFAIK, COPE Directors are trained at National Camp School. I can't believe your council doesn't know this or have any COPE Directors. Your council does have a COPE course, right?

"So are they gonna remake it along the lines of the movie, or go more towards the book?" Somehow I think, especially as this is Disney, that going more toward the book is probably out. Most remakes these days, and especially Disney's, usually start from the original movie, then go further away from the original source (and what it was really about) in an attempt to be successful (ie 'appeal to today's audience'), rather then create a timeless classic. Heck, I don't think any of the remakes in the last few decades have been better then the original. "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" is the only one I think was better then the original. "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" has some stuff I liked better then the Gene Wilder version, but there was also stuff I liked better in the Wilder version.

"Stupid question,but here it goes, if NYLT and WB21C are so similar, why would someone who went through NYLT as a youth, whether as a Scout or Venturer, want to go through WB21C when they become a Scouter or over 18 Venturer?" Good question. While I have a NYLT syllabus, I haven't fully reviewed it. A lot of the leadership concepts are shared between the 2. But I recall when I went thru WB as an young, 20-something scouter, that some of my fellow scouters of the same age didn't see the value in going to WB. They felt as Eagle Scouts, having gone thru & staffed TLTC (the NYLT of its day) that there was nothing for them to learn in WB.

"Kodiak training is the training that will be replaced by NYLT." The training update doesn't say that. Kodiak will still exist, just being updated. Frankly, its not clear how all these courses will relate to one another.

I figured Whitey's dad would be abusive...

"so there's no apparent progress form for the training award." Not so. there are progress forms for both the Skipper's Key and the Sea Scouter Training Award. I think they messed up the links. The Scouters Training Award requirements are here: http://www.seascout.org/for_leaders/adult_recognition/adult-award.html the form is missing for some reason.

"The award form for the Venturing Leadership Award does not mention the device, nor can I find it listed in the Insignia Guide or Venturing manual. Does anyone have an official reference for this practice?" There is no official reference for this. I was told by people in the know that this was the reason for the design for the knot. They wanted ONE knot for all 3 awards, and did it this way. And I've seen National-level people wearing the knots (including regional venturing presidents, etc), so this shows that's the correct style. Keep in mind that it sometimes take time for the literature to catch up. The Insignia Guide took awhile before it included Powder Horn, Kodiak, etc. "One web site stated that the Boy Scouts Relationship Division has approved a Masonic device for wear on the Community Organization Award. I could find no other reference to this, though." I find that hard to believe. I was told by someone ON the Relationships Committee that they created the knot with the intention that NOTHING be worn on it. Many people do (I've seen Masons wear the compass/square, DoD people wear a mini DoD pin, I wear my APO LM pin, etc). They wanted it to be treated like the religious knots that nothing be worn on it. If they approved a masonic device, they'd have to approve all the other items people wear to indicate WHICH award they received.

Den Chief may not be a Crew position, but Venturers CAN be Den Chiefs. Keep in mind that sometimes it takes a while for literature to catch up with reality. It was a while before the Training Guideline book or the Insignia Guide included Powder Horn. There were some adults who took the attitude that it wasn't official training because it wasn't listed in those 2 booklets. Is that really the attitude we should be taking?

"Why would any Scoutmaster worth his salt allow his PLC to shut the place down for the summer? This is the time of year when kids are available!! " I have to agree. I just have no idea where this concept comes from. In fact, it was something I had to adjust to when I went from being a cub/webelos scout to a boy scout that 1) troops met all summer, and 2) there was no punch & cookies at the meeting . I was in scouts for 7 years till I aged out. My troop wasn't always the best, in fact for a couple of years we had problems. BUT we met every week. We did a campout every month. We participated in scout show and any district/council camporee every year (doing so was NOT an option, as far as I knew as eithe a scout or adult leader). During the summer we spent atleast one week in summer camp. A few kids did a second week of 'provisional camp' (ie, going it a second week without your troop). We tried doing a second week of our own summer trip. Sure, we had some kids not appear for a week or two for family trips, but we still met. To me, that's the standard for ANY troop: meet every week (unless a holiday), camp once a month, participate in district/council camporees, participate in council scout show, attend summer camp, do a week-long troop trip. When I hear of troops not doing many of these things, I just shake my head.

Venturers can be Den Chiefs, and AFAIK, they can use that position for earning Eagle. Most likely someone just forgot to list that position under Crew positions for Eagle.

"* Venturing Leadership Award (to show level of awards) I understand that this can be earned on different levels: Council, Regional or National. I also understand that each is refelected by a different color on the medal which is presented, but what device accompanies these levels?" Its not the device that indicates what level, but where its worn on the knot. The ribbons of the 3 levels are different colors: blue- council, region- green, nationa- red. These colors are the background of the knot (and also shown on the certificate). You wear a device (either the venturing pin or sea scout pin, depending on which program you received the award from) in the appropriate color to indicate what level you received it. Me, I've only received the Council VLA, so I wear a venturing pin in the blue area. Another scouter I know, a past council commodore and now member of the National Sea Scout Committee, received all 3 VLAs, and did so as a Sea Scout leader, so he wears 3 Sea Scout pins in the 3 color areas.

"How many of these 40 knots can be worn with devices? Officially, that is?" These are the knots you can wear devices with: * Eagle (DES pin or palms) * SM/Advisor Award of Merit (show earned as SM or Advisor) * Scouter's Key (to show program you earned it) * Scouter's Training Award (to show program you earned it) * Youth Religious Award (to show level of awards) * James E West Fellowship Award (devices to show the 2 higher levels) * William Boyce Unit Award (to show establishing multiple units) * Venturing Leadership Award (to show level of awards)

The BSA HAS an style guide. Should be on-line at the National site. Gives the pantone colors for the various programs.

FYI- 10 years ago, I created a website giving information on the various older boy (and older youth) programs of the BSA, including information on their awards, uniform, insignia, books, etc. Programs included Air Scouts/Explorers, Senior Scouts, Explorer Scouts/Explorers/Exploring, Sea Scouts/Explorers, Rovers, etc. Due to Geocities being shutdown, I have now moved the site to a new location: www.seniorscoutinghistory.org With the move, I now have the space to upload my collection of PDF scans of various BSA materials: Explorer Program Quarterlies, Explorer Program Helps, selected scans of Scouting magazine, National Docs, etc. I have a lot of this uploaded, just taking me time, so have just begun on the Scouting mag scans. Hope this is of interest to others.

AFAIK, the requirements for the Boy Scout WCA has never changed. You only had to earn certain merit badges. Nothing else.

Outdoors should always be part of Scouting (the old 'you can't take the 'outing' out of scouting'), and AFAIC, should be part of Venturing. An outdoor crew certainly should be comfortable camping, a sailing crew, while they don't camp, per say, should be comfortable in the outdoors (where else do you sail?). A church crew should be trying to get out some time (camp retreat and the like). A re-enactment crew should also be comfortable camping (I was part of a seminole war/early florida history re-enactment crew. we most certainly camped out). I would hope that other types of crews would be exposed to the outdoors in some fashion. This is one of my issues with some crews and how they focus EXCLUSIVELY on their speciality. That's really not the way it should be. Yes, you can have a speciality. And build a program around it. BUT you should include OTHER aspects of Venturing into your program: service, social, outdoors, etc. If you are an indian lore crew, doing the occasional social event like going bowling doesn't suddenly turn you into a bowling crew. But doing the occasional social event is something you should be doing.

Regarding the placards. they were used in the NLS version of the game, but the changing of the placards was done by the staff. As you note, some participants caught this, some did not. They were not used in the WB version of the game, and this was one element I thought was missing that was important. We don't use them in my fraternities version of the game (and we don't call it the 'win all you can' game'). I think this unfortunate, but can't be helped.

"I'll wait until the requirements come out before judging the award's potential. If the requirements reward scouts merely for getting good grades in science courses, I'd be inclined to dismiss the award as poorly designed -- scouting is not reducible to a classroom experience! However, if they get scouts to see how science and math relate to scouting's methods, other aspects of their lives, etc., while developing their science and math skills, I'd be inclined to welcome it. Even better, if the requirements get scouts to appreciate the importance of combining ethics with scientific pursuits, I'd downright embrace it." Have to agree. If they can incorporate some of the need things I see in, say "Make Magazine", the First Robotic Competition, etc, it may be a good program. I have to agree with OGE's assesment. Venturing isn't exclusively outdoors. I never want the outdoors to go away, but I think Venturing allows for a framework to attract youth of different interesting into a program that can instill the values of scouting.

"I don't necessarily think the game needs to be scrapped but I think the right lessons need to be derived from it. I'm not sure if it was a failure in leadership or a failure in the curriculum." Kind of my feeling. As noted, my first exposure to the game was as a participant in NLS. I thought it was well run, but then I know the staff for NLS spends about a week learning the course. I could tell that if the staff don't run the game right, there can be problems. Then, when I staffed WB, I discovered we were going to do the game. I was a bit concerned as how they were running the game didn't match with how I saw it at NLS, and I felt it wouldn't go as well. The response I got was 'this is how we were told to run it at WB CDC', so I kept my mouth shut. We had problems with the game, and I didn't know if the issues were how WB does it compared to NLS, or how well they prepare the CDs or staff to run the game. Later, I found my Fraternity had incorporated a version into our course on conflict resolution. Having seen the game go well and not so well, and IMO, the preparation of the staff was to me a vital element in its success, I was a little leary. One things that is different is that we actually don't split the group up into the team for the game UNTIL the game, so the participants are organized into patrol-size groups during the course. This avoids the built-in idea of patrol competition that can exist in WB. I have seen it done 2 now in this course, and overall they've gone well. I think is due in part to the absense of the use of groups thru the course. FWIW, we call it the 'red/green' game, and dispence with the "win all you can" terminology. I don't know the ultimate basis for the game, but here is one website explaining it: http://peacebuilding.caritas.org/index.php/Win_All_You_Can Note that the purpose is "To explore how sub-groups in a larger team can balance their desire to win more as a sub-group with their desire to win as a team". This, to me, is the point that is too often lost or not clear in the de-brief.

I asked someone I know at the National office. they just started work on the new Bronze, so it will be awhile before it comes out. they didn't give me a date.

"Math, science and computer nerds...isn't that what Exploring is for? I'm sooo confused." Only if its as a CAREER. If its for a HOBBY, then its Venturing. Don't laugh. When the Exploring/Venturing split, while it seems clear which way many units would go (Career-oriented, you go to LfL/Exploring; non-career, you go to Venturing), it was an issue with some. I know of at least one Computer Explorer Post which DIDN'T want to go to Exploring (the leadership where all old-time scouters, saw LfL as a non-moral org, etc, and they weren't chartered to a government body) so they declared themselves a Computer HOBBY Crew to stay with Venturing. So it may be a way to bring those sorts of units that wouldn't have an issue with being BSA units (ie, not government sponsored, no issues with BSA membership policies, etc) into Venturing. Frankly, if you look at some of the other career groups in LfL/Exploring (Law Enforcement, Fire/Rescue, Medical, etc), most wouldn't be a good fit withing Venturing. Math and science could. At the National Meeting, they did mention some new awards, but it wasn't along the lines of a new Bronze, but awards along the lines of the Shooting Sports Award- outdoor oriented awards for lots of camping and the like. And no info as to when they'd be coming out. I think it was a slip up in leaving out Sea Scouts from that list. Also: "Heck of a way to let the membership know- eh?" Yeah, I'd have to agree...

Did they say when it was being rolled out? Typically such things are usually rolled out after the first of the year, and there would be info on the National website. This is the first I've heard of such a thing, but there has been a lot of 'churn' in the National office in the last year.

Adding to what BadenP said. The flexibility of Venturing (which, by the way, it inherited from Exploring, and which was how Exploring was run since atleast the 70s) is one of its greatest strengths and its greatest weakness. The same was true under Exploring. Allowing for a Venturing Crew to develop their own, unique program is very powerful. This leads to youth coming to a particular crew because it offers a unique program that appeals to them. This program can be as broad as "outdoors" or as narrow as "civil war re-enactment". The problem is that many times you can't provide them with any kind of 'national standard program', like you can with Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts. You can usually only provide more general program ideas (general "outdoors", "religious life", etc). But with the internet, it is possible for crews to connect with crews of similiar programs, especially if they are fairly unique within their council. But the more unique a program, the more its on the shoulders of the youth (AND adults) to keep things going. Some can handle this, some can't. What Venturing DOES provide (as did Exploring before) is an overall framework, into which crews plug their unique program. This framework is the general crew organization, youth and adult leadership training (VLSC, Kodiak, Kodiak-X for youth, VLST, WB, Powder Horn, etc for adults), recognition program, and a structure of support at the district & council levels (roundtable/program forum, VOA/TLC at district/council levels, etc). Some crews take full advantage of these, and some don't. Its been found that crews that take advantage of most of these things are stronger and better crews. BTW, a church youth group or re-enactment crew CAN be just as much a Venturing crew as an outdoor crew IF they are using the Venturing program, not just to get the insurance or the like.

"can you post a link to the 2 page document?" I can, but if you don't have a Yahoo ID, and you aren't a member of the Venturinglist on Yahoo Groups you won't be able to access the file. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kNXlSoElL5D99oSZneP5jSDC6-0tPaLMMbebHwnhppQrfwdxxQ7vaG0BAhjegU56qLLfu8N9wBdMWI2fIbkj/2010%20Training%20Changes.pdf I do wish National would make this available from their website, just as they do their training updates.