Eamonn

I never worked out how the life guard thing was part of this thread?? I must have missed something along the way. While the last census did show changes in population, Scouting is very local. Where I live we don't have hardly any if any Hispanics, so for us it's not a big deal. There are parts of Pennsylvania where there are large Hispanic communities, around Harrisburg and Lancaster County. As far as I know there isn't a very active gay community around where I live. So in many ways a lot of what is being discussed doesn't really affect me or the Council where I live. Not having any local Hispanics does mean that for the average person where I live that very few if anyone gives them a lot of thought. But things are different when it comes to the Gay issue and Scouting. Clearly sides have been drawn and people are on one side or the other. There just doesn't seem to be very much middle ground. Of course I live in a fairly rural area. There were only three black /African American kids in my son's graduation class, no Hispanics and one Lad who was from Iraq, his Dad is a local doctor. We are seeing a larger Asian community move into the Pittsburgh area as the city becomes more of a high tech area, with job opportunities that seem to be a good fit. Pittsburgh like many big cities does have areas that are very poor and mainly African American. The Greater Pittsburgh Council is doing what it can to bring more of the black youth into Scouting. The big problem seems to be finding black leaders. With the economy as it is right now spending money trying to attract minorities is a big gamble. If the census numbers are to be believed? I think many Hispanic families will filter into all parts of Pennsylvania much like the Irish and the Italians have done. This might not be the case in areas where there is already large Hispanic communities like we find in some parts of California. I'm a little unsure if we aren't maybe over reacting? My employer is a little worried about the population shift, so much so that I'm being sent on a course that the PA. State Police is running on Survival Spanish. Heck! I'm still trying to learn American English! Ea.

I attended a work related training last week. We were talking about the games inmates play on staff in a correctional setting Of course inmates in jail have all the time in the world to study staff members and look for chinks in their armor. They pick up on just about anything and everything we staff members do. Often using what they find for no good. Still just like our Scouts they see the good that we do. While very few come out and say anything, every now and then it will slip out. Sometimes them knowing that someone is going to play things by the book prevents them from trying to do something that they ought not be trying. Sometimes there is a connection and even hardened criminals will follow a good example. It's not easy being in the spotlight all the time and there are of course times when the example isn't always as good as it should or might be. But rather than beat yourself up about this, I find the best thing to do is just put it down to trying to do your best and maybe doing better next time. Ea.

OGE, Happy to hear you had the best est time! Now get back to work in the real world! Ea.

I've read a lot of the discussions that have gone here in this forum. Maybe I've not read them that closely? Have to say that I never gave the Scouting alumni a second thought. I teach a class on suicide prevention and unless they have come up with new numbers? I believe that suicide is not the leading cause of death in teenagers. I have been told that motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for U.S. teens. Like it or not those who are behind pushing what I'd call the Gay Agenda have done a wonderful job for their cause. Watching Sunday morning on CBS the other Sunday it mentioned the Stonewall riots anniversary on June 27, 1969. Things have changed a lot since 1969, which really isn't that long ago. While history will and does look back at the major events that affect the Gay Rights Movement. I tend to think that it's what has happened and the way that gays have been seen in the media that have done more to soften the attitudes of non gays. Movie and pop stars are OK with saying that they are gay, watch any reality TV show and you can bet at least one of the guys on the island or in the house is going to be gay. Older people like myself can argue about the promiscuity as it regards sex and young people but I'm not sure we get what they are seeing and getting. Most of the young people I talk with don't see being gay or homosexual as being a big deal. While very few say or are willing to say that they are, they seem happy to go with whatever people do in private that doesn't harm others is fine by them. They just can't see why the BSA wants to make a big deal about this. My religion doesn't condone homosexuality. It is seen as a sin. I don't know if at some time in the future this will change or not? Sometimes the R/C church can be very slow about things and then one day just do a 180 degree turn. The way things seem now, I can't see the church changing. Not being gay this is one of those sins I just don't have to worry about. Lord knows I have enough on my plate to deal with as it is! I wonder how many others have similar feelings? The number of homosexuals in the USA doesn't seem to be clear. I've read around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes. So who's right? I don't know. Most of us are so busy doing what we are doing that spending time worrying about gay rights is not something that is high on our lists of things that concern us. I really don't think that if the BSA were to allow avowed homosexuals to serve as leaders that the flood gates would open and that there would be thousands of gays waiting in line to fill out leadership applications. While maybe some of the homosexual adults who are now serving might feel that they no longer have to hide their sexuality. My gut feeling is that if the gay policy were to be done away with in less than ten years it would be a non-issue. We can argue about homosexuality until the cows come home. Some of us will see it as just being wrong, while others will take the other side. I get a little mixed up. There are some things that I just know are wrong. I can't ever see me murdering anyone. I know that murder is wrong and people who do murder should be punished. For me that's not a hard one. Things get a little more complicated when it comes to abortion. My church is 101% against it. Even when the pre-natal tests which turned out to be wrong. Showed that my son might be born less than normal and I spend three days looking at my options, one of which was terminating the pregnancy, I decided that I couldn't allow an abortion. For me it just wasn't the right thing to do. But I can and do see how and where it might be the right thing for other people. So while it might be said that I have not gone against the teaching of my religion? I'm not 100% with the teaching's. Being heterosexual I fail to understand gay or homosexual sex. Two men or two women just don't seem to have what is needed, in my view. I do understand how two people can have deep feelings for each other and love and care for each other. Maybe this loving and caring does lead to a physical relationship? I'm not the person to ask. The jury seems to still be out about homosexuality being a choice or not. Seems it depends who is doing the asking. When it comes down to what other organizations are saying and doing about the BSA. It seems to me that they are not looking at or debating gays or homosexuals. They are looking at and seeing an organization that discriminates. We might not like to hear it but the BSA does discriminate. Being as the BSA is a private organization it is allowed by law to discriminate. There is however a cost to being a private organization and that bed is made and we as an organization need to sleep on it, leave or try to change the areas where there is discrimination. Each of us needs to look at where we stand. If we really can't tolerate the discrimination we need to leave. In my book, I see an organization which does have faults, but the good that it can and does do outweighs the faults. So I'm OK with staying. Eamonn

We used to have an Eagle Recognition Dinner where the Scout would get to spend the day tagging a long with someone who worked in an area of interest that the Scout had said he might follow. It sometimes worked out and sometimes didn't. Then the sponsor would pick up the dinner tab for both dinners. It wasn't a big tab. I seem to remember it costing me less than $100.00. Then the bright spark of a SE we had at the time seen that the Council next door had made a lot of money from the similar event they had. They are a big metro Council based in down town Pittsburgh, where lots of companies are based. I heard, but can't say for sure that some of these companies were giving Eagle Scouts money for college and that sort of thing as well as paying several $1,000 for a table. We tried it and it failed miserably. So we tried it again and it failed again. Part of the reason it failed was that the event was moved from the spring to the fall, when many of the older Eagles had left for college and the younger guys were playing sports. The first year our local power (Electric Company) was the main sponsor, a past Council President and a super nice fellow was a big wig in the company, the following year the area newspaper was the sponsor. Company sponsorship isn't a bad thing. Part of our problem is that we just keep knocking on the same doors. Asking the same people for big bucks, golf outings, skeet shoots and dinners. All at about $1500.00 a pop. I tried explaining that most small businesses just can't afford this. When I was in business I was hit all the time by everything from the big charities to the guys who just wanted an ad in a program. Still after a while it just became too much. I went with the American Cancer Society and the Boy Scouts. To be honest the local Boy Scouts didn't do anything for me as a business man. No dinners where they paid the check! No real recognition for the business, most times not even a thank you letter. Ea.

When I think about Commissioner Service. I get a little lost. Before we can make it more effective we need to do a better job of defining what it really is. All this "Friend to the unit" sounds good but does little to clearly define what the job is. This of course makes it really hard to recruit others. The image of the Commissioner is not the greatest in part because Commissioners have been used as District dog bodies doing whatever needed doing. Back when our District had what I'd call a real group of Commissioners. (27 Commissioners looking after 42 units.) The guys who were taking the time to visit units would attend the monthly meetings and report if the unit was Green: Doing well, Yellow: OK but could be in need of some help or Red: In real trouble. More often than not these reports remained the same, the Red Units remained Red the Green remained Green the only change might be in the yellow units who moved one way or the other. The U/C was the eyes and the ears of the District but other than reporting wasn't able to do much to change what was going on in the unit. Sure every now and then a group of adults were unable to get along and the U/C might get to act as some kind of referee. But even with a fully functioning District Committee the problems that units had weren't changed just by having a visit from the U/C. The units that were in the Red mainly had problems with not having active adult leadership or not having enough youth members. Many seemed ready to fold year after year, but somehow managed to recharter year after year. The Key 3 knew what the situation was, but losing a charter made becoming Quality more difficult, the CO knew but either didn't care, want to get involved, seen it as not their problem or didn't want to upset the leadership that was in place. The District Committee knew and sent in people that could offer ideas that might work. Often this was seen as interferences. Mean while the U/C is doing his visit trying to be a friend. The poor guy is walking on egg shells. More often than not to be a friend of the unit the thing that needs done is to replace all the adults in the unit, but if there were more active adults around the unit wouldn't be having the problems in the first place. So he becomes a friend of the leadership, which is not the same thing as friend to the unit. Our District Chair is stepping down at the end of this year. I've been asked to consider replacing him. Things are a real mess. The District has become so small that it can't support paying a DE. The DE we have is a nice enough fellow but seems resigned to the fact that everything is failing. The District Committee no longer meets! There just aren't enough people to make having a meeting worth while. The monthly R/T has become a conference phone call. The District Commissioner has a staff of two. He is a super nice guy but is the busiest person doing nothing that I've ever met. Him and his gang of two meet every month to do what? I don't think they know. Nothing happens or comes out of their meeting. Other than doing the stuff that has to be done and more often than not the DE has done this stuff anyway. All the high tech toys in the world aren't going to do much until such a time as there is a clear, well defined job description that Commissioners can try to work with. Ea.

Come to think of it, some of the worst Scouts I've had to deal with came from the best families. Just thought I'd mention it. Ea.

Eamonn posted: "The problem with zero tolerance is that it doesn't always make sense." Alabama Scouter asks: "Got to ask you E, just when does it make sense to you to allow hazing?" I'm not sure where I said that hazing made sense? Please explain. Thanks Ea.

While I'm not for trying to have summer camps and jamborees turn into anything like a Woodstock festival. I'm not in any way condoning drugs or drug use. I do think we need to do all we can to work with Scouts who have made a bad /poor choice. There are kids who do fall victim to addiction and who need help in ways that we just can't provide. A lot of the kids we have in Scouts and Scouting are experimenting, they have heard so much and seen so much about about all of this that they feel they should give it a try. There are some kids that fall somewhere in the middle of all this. Not addicts, but more than just someone experimenting. Kids who use drugs on something that might be seen as a regular basis. I only ever tried pot one time. It was at a party after a school play. The cast and production guys had a party. We were all underage to even be drinking alcohol. I remember that hard cider seemed to be a big thing, mainly because to this day I hate hard cider! Someone made a enormous hand rolled pot cigarette and us budding thespians sad around in a circle waiting our turn to take a puff. I took a big long drag, coughed my lungs up and never tried it again. That night I got sick on hard cider. I'm not in contact with very many people who were in that play. I do send and receive cards at Christmas to five or six of them and we exchange the odd email. I can't say how long some of them used pot and other drugs or how much they might have used. I do know for a fact that two of them have had big problems with alcohol. I wish that I was able to sit here with a pure heart and go on about the wrong and the evil of drugs, but that isn't my case. The truth is that I didn't get involved with all of this stuff because I was scared and worried that I might like it. I think a big reason why my son never got into it all was that he was always broke and never had the money. Even with me paying half his Scouting was a big drain on his finances, then came his car and the expense that involved. While maybe here isn't the place and I'm sure that some will be upset. I'm not 100% sure that experimenting is always a bad thing. In my case I'm glad I tried it and happy that I was lucky enough not to like it. Once I'd tried it I was able to move on and any mystic or glamor it all might have held was gone. As a parent I was aware and knew that there was a time when I had to let go, I had to be willing to trust my son. Me standing over him and watching and seeing what he was doing wasn't going to be an option. Many of the dumb things he did do, didn't get back to me till long after they'd happened. (Like the night him and a car load of summer camp staff members drove to Washington D.C on their staff night off.) I have never been the type of parent to say that I'd rather have "Them" do bad stuff at home, just because I can keep an eye on "Them". I have never bought him a beer and wouldn't know where to go to buy drugs. While maybe someplace deep in my heart I maybe knew that he might try things that I'd not like. I most certainly wasn't going to help him do it. I can't and don't want to be a parent for every Scout. Still the Scouts I really get to know and see on a regular basis, know and are aware that I care about them. I never ever want to see them hurt or harmed in any way. A Scout would really need to do something horrendously bad for me to feel the need to call the police or involve the courts. I'm not saying that I never would, but I feel the harm that might cause would last a life time. Kids even older teenagers are still kids, they are not little adults. They make bad /poor choices, that's part of being a kid. It doesn't make what they might do right, but my hope is that maybe I just might be able to make them see that the choice was a bad one and prevent them from making it again. Helping or trying to help one Lad not get hooked on drugs, not end up in jail and me doing what I can to support him and his family for me is a lot more important than teaching a Troop full of Scouts how to tie a clove hitch. Eamonn.

For a long time the debate if Scouts is for every boy? Has been going on. Have to admit that I never really looked at it from the adults point of view. I agree that some leaders are better working with certain types of boys than others. This doesn't make the ones that do work with them better leaders or the ones that can't worse. My take on this "Is Scouting for every Boy?" Thing is to change it a bit. For me I'd say that every boy should have the opportunity to be a Scout. What he then decides to do with this opportunity is then up to him. Ea.

When I read stuff like this, I'm so grateful that my son who is now just 23 (I thought he was only 22, but he must have gained a year along the way.) Didn't get into this type of activity. I do really feel for the parents. Having a son who is somehow out of reach, must be a constant worry for them. I do agree that there comes a time or an age when it seems that as parents we lose control of our kids. Kinda strange that we spend so many years trying to get them to become independent and then make a fuss when they do. I'm not sure how strict a parent I was? My big threat was that if he did something that I'd said was a no, no, the Bank Of Dad would close permanently. It worked up until he stared earning his own money. Drugs at Scouting events is not something new. I remember before I was married my now Brother In Law had a problem with a group of Lads smoking pot at summer camp and that was almost 30 years back. (Come to think of it if I was forced to spend a week with him maybe being stoned might be a good option?) If I was faced with a problem like this one. I think I'd lay down the law and make it very clear to this Lad that drugs and Scouting just don't mix. He needs to give me his word that his days of bringing pot and any other illegal drug are a thing of the past and that he is going to come to Scout meetings and functions as clean as clean can be. I'd promise him that if he gave me any reason what so ever to even suspect that he had drugs on him or was even slightly under the weather he would face what ever the consequences might be and that could include me calling his parents, or even the police. We'd have a nice long chat about how he was letting himself down and all those close to him down. (I'm good at nice long chats!) I'd make him aware of the guys I know who are serving hard time for being caught with pot and that it isn't a joke. I would of course also let him know that I do care about him and his family. Also I'd let him know that I would be there for him especially if the going at home got a little too heavy. Then I tell his parents everything that I spoke to him about. My next move would be to go out of my way to keep him busy doing something and anything where he wouldn't be around the guys who are doing this with him or selling him the stuff. I might recommend to his parents that they restrict his cash flow. But that would be their call. To cover my tail if the CO was the type that I seen as being understanding, I fill them in and make a plea that we do what we can to look after this Lad, with the proviso should he mess up that he'd be out on his ear. Eamonn.

How very sad and tragic. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families. I think before we start looking for cause or finding fault, it's better to allow the people who were there do their own investigation. Eamonn.

HWMBO can't stand snakes. The following story was in the news: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43759440/ns/local_news-pittsburgh_pa/ This is the hospital where she works. Good job she was on vacation this week. Ea.

"I have met the "District" and "Council", and they is us". Is that the same as "We is them?" Why do I feel that we should all break into "The more we are together, together, together the happier we shall be?" Ea.

This might be wonderful news, if I knew what you were talking about. Ea

For my job and as a member of the HNT (Hostage Negotiation Team.)I have to attend a fair amount of training's that deal with Gangs and gang threats. Maybe it's just me? But somehow I just can't see someone who the "local police department" has listed "a confirmed gang member". Also being a Boy Scout. Ex-gang member maybe. Each and every kid who wants to be a Scout in any unit that I'm the leader of starts with a clean slate. I don't care what he has done in the past. Most of the time it's none of my business anyway. A lot of the time when people talk about kids they see as being wayward they don't have the right information and something has made them uneasy. The kid is black or lives on the bad side of town, his Dad is incarcerated, he has an ear ring, his pants are baggy, he listens to music that upsets someone . -The list goes on. Best thing I've found to do is take plenty of no notice. I'm willing and I really do try to treat everyone with respect. I expect the same thing in return. If a Lad is a little toad. I don't care what type of family he comes from, if his Dad is the local preacher or the local drug dealer. I'll treat him like a little toad. If the Lad is trying to do his best and really isn't causing me any problems (A few problems is OK!) We'll get along like a house on fire. If the uneasy parents feel that this "Bad Lad" is cause or reason for them to remove their child from the unit? Then that's their choice. I couldn't stop them if I wanted too. But you can bet your last dollar I wouldn't want too. I've had Scouts who have ended up in court for doing mostly dumb things and I've gone to court to talk on their behalf. I've welcomed them back into the Troop with open arms. We both know that they messed up, but if they are willing to start over? I sure as heck am. The day I turn a Lad away just because he has a bad reputation, is the day I'm done with Scouts and Scouting. Scouting isn't an organization for little angels, if it were Scouts shirts would have hole in the back for the wings. Give me a cheeky little fellow who is doing his best to find his way, even if he does mess up any day of the week. Ea.

A friend used to work in the Relationships Division, when I asked him whatever? If he wasn't the person he passed my question on to the right person or department. Since the reorganization he moved and is now working as a SE and earning more. Anytime I have phoned the National Office, the people there have always been great. For a while I thought some of the guys in the Regional Office, just didn't like me! This changed once I sat on the Area Committee and got to know them and work with them a little more. Most SE can if they want or feel the need pass things on to where they need to end up, but a good many choose not to do so. Why? I don't know. Maybe part of it is because everyone feels that they have something that they see as being urgent or special? Email has made it very easy for anybody and everybody to dash off a few lines. Perhaps the volume is just too much for the guys who work in the National Office? Never had a problem in a District. As District Chair and as District Commish. I wasn't that hard to find. I was at each an every District Committee meeting. R/T Meeting, Commissioners Cabinet Meeting and I've lived where I now live for over 20 years with the same phone number. If someone couldn't find me? I think maybe that they weren't trying very hard. Ea.

News like this is always sad. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and Scouts. Sounds as if the boys who were hurt are going to be OK. My wish for all of them is a speedy recovery. Ea.

We have one of these Eagle Weeks. Seems that some fellow died and left a lot of money to two Councils, the one I'm in and the big one next door. I can't remember all the details, but somewhere in the will it said that the money had to be used for something to do or for Eagle Scout rank. To date I've never met a SE who would turn down free money. A week was added on at the end of camp. A couple of staff members were kept on for the extra week. Scouts were bussed to places like the Post Office or the Court House in order to meet some of the Citizenship MB requirements. How the money was really spent? No one seems to really know. Many of us just stood around and shook our heads in disbelieve. A good pal of mine was one of the staff members hired for the first year. An older retired fellow. When I asked why he wasn't going back the next year he said it was sad and more than he could manage seeing Scouts sitting at picnic tables till late at night while they wrote up all the stuff that needed to be wrote. Talking with some of the boys, they said that camping with Scouts from other Troops was fun and that the adults were OK. They all each and everyone of them said that they went because their parents had wanted them to. Every cloud has a silver lining. Still something about force feeding Scouts advancement just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm just becoming to old for how this game is being played? Ea.

From what you have posted it seems that the old timers look forward to this night, which I've never heard of before. It also seems that the youth have no interest in it. So why not have a night for the adults? Invite some of the guys from the District to attend. These District types might do a little arm twisting and maybe could come away with a couple of Commissioners, MBC's, FOS Presenters maybe even a few bucks for FOS? If it goes well? Great! If it stinks? Then no one is going to want to do it again. Either way you come out smelling like a rose. Ea.

"It was only through the dedication of District and Unit level Volunteers that the BSA survived". Isn't that true today and hasn't it always been the case? Ea.

I have some old books on and about Scouting. I have at one time read them. Much like I have cook books that cover cooking and how people cooked, prepared food and ate at different time through the ages. For the most part I look at these more from a matter of interest than from trying to find a practical way of doing something or trying to get the job done. When it comes to doing something and getting the job done, most times out of necessity I use what I know works. Learning and getting to know what will work? Most times means falling back on past experiences, using whatever resources are available or sometimes researching what works and choosing the option I think is going to work. - If it doesn't work? Then this is added to my list of experiences. Here is this forum for a very long time I've harped on about Train them, Trust them, Let them lead. I believe with this with all that's in me. Still there are times when "They" haven't received all the training that they need and a plan B is needed. Things don't always go to a plan or as planned. Again here in this forum I for a very long time went on about how wrong it was for people to tweak the program. Today I'm not so adamant on this one. While I still see straying too far from the program as it is meant to be as wrong. I do see that people do what works for them and they sometimes change things based on where they are, what they have to work with and the boys that they are working with. I'd expect different things from a well established Troop from an affluent area than a new Troop from a not so well to do area. I'm willing to trust other adults who sometimes interpret things that are sometimes not written as clearly as we might like and do at times contradict themselves, as they might see them. If this at times confuses the Scouts? My hope is that there is a life lesson in there somewhere. Kids get conflicting information a lot from parents, teachers and a lot of the adults they have to deal with. Part of what we do is about having them make choices. Sometimes they need to look at what is offered and make a choice. We will never know what the guys from Scoutings past would write or say about living in the 21st century. Lord Baden Powell and the rest of the gang aren't around to write a blog or put an app on our smart phones. I'm OK with this, they did their part they served us well but they passed the baton on to us and it's up to us to keep passing it on. We will never know what they might think about the job we are doing or have done. When the times comes that I'm not around anymore, my hope is that my legacy is that I did my best. To expect anymore more than that would be unfair. Ea.

As a kid, a long time back! Growing up near the center of London. While we never really identified ourselves as gangs the kids from the street I lived on and maybe a few kids from near by street did hang out together. The local park, the play grounds, soccer fields and pavilions were our kingdom. Outsiders were not welcome. This was at a time when in London many if not most of the kids parents didn't have cars. Our family was the second or third family on our street to own a car. At weekends and during school holidays, we kids couldn't wait to finish breakfast and meet our pals over at the park. I think if the truth be told our parents were happy to get us out of the house. There wasn't that much for a young Lad to do around the house. Our "Garden" was smaller than my living-room is. No video games, no computers. Kids bedrooms had a bed, some toys and books. The houses were small no family rooms or dens. So staying in wasn't a lot of fun. Most of the kids attended the same school and back then school sports in England weren't after school activities. In the area where I lived the choice for boys was either Scouts or the local boxing club. Even in the 1970's. The Scouts in the Troop came from the local flats (Projects.) Their homes were small and many of the parents weren't that well off. So the kids who lived there were always out and about. Sometime around the 1970's drugs and street drugs became a problem. The older teenagers got into drugs both using and dealing. Rival gangs started to fight for territories they seen as theirs. Lose of an area meant a loss of income. While many teenagers joined these gangs, some kids and their parents seen Scouting as a safe place and a healthy environment for their kids to hang out. Along with the weekly Troop meeting the Troop I was leader of had a games night and we rented the local public swimming pool one night a week, add camps and outings Scouts and Scouting filled a lot if not most of the free time that the Scouts had. The Troop served mainly the local boys who were able to walk to and from the meetings even at this time many parents didn't have cars and even those that did didn't have the mind set of chauffeuring their kids to and from activities that their kids were in. The parents loved and cared for their children, but it seems to me that there wasn't a need for them to be there every step of the way for their kids. This gave the kids a lot of freedom to explore things and experiences on their own. Some kids made poor choices. Talking with drug dealers in jail especially those from the bigger cities like Philadelphia who were raised in the projects. Staying home or around the house isn't or wasn't really an option. So they got out of the house and joined gangs that were into doing bad and illegal activities. Many of these gangs are very well organized and have all sorts of rules and traditions. For a lot of the young teenagers and boys who join they get to feel that they belong to something and are really someone when they become a member. If we were able to find a way of grabbing these Lads? I don't think that we'd save the world or street gangs and drug traffickings would go away. Still if we were able to keep just a few out of jail, or one from being killed on the street. I think it would be worth the effort. Eamonn.

Not trying to hijack the thread. But.... Kinda strikes me as being odd that here we are an organization that at times harps on about Scouts (Youth Members.) Not living up to the Oath and Law. Especially after the work that people put in. Yet here we are talking about adult leaders and questioning how trustworthy they are or might be? Have to wonder what message we send to the Scouts? Ea.

While I'm on the side of being cozy. I do think that once you pick a side you need to stay with it. Nothing is worse than a cozy meeting that out of no where suddenly changes course and someone wants to start spurting Rules Of Order. It might be said that when things go wrong and people do become a little upset, they are not going to feel as upset at a business type meeting. Somehow it feels a little less personal. Ea.