Eamonn

I'm sorry ScoutBox, I think this is a can of worms that is best left alone and unopened. The "Gift" All the WB staff should give is to present the best course possible. Things like this have a habit of growing, getting out of hand and can end up over shadowing the real reason why there is a course in the first place. Ea.

Kudu, One thing that really irks me is that I tend to think if we both could sit down and have a face to face chat, my feeling is that we very well might find that we have more in common than not. I don't for a second let alone a minute believe that you believe all that?? Call it what ever you like about Value Based Scouting having to do with Advancement,Soccer and camping. I'll gladly stand up and proclaim that we have way too many adults who just don't get it. They hold Eagle Scout as the be all and end all of what Scouts and Scouting is about and seem willing to take short cuts, look for loop holes and allow advancement to be the driving force for all they do. Which sadly at times includes forcing and enforcing their will on the Scouts that they are supposed to be serving. I'm willing to bet that when I posted about Traditional Values you knew the values that I was talking about. All that good stuff we find in the Oath and Law. I agree that Scouts learn a heck f a lot from working together. Much as I hate the term "Classroom" in Scouting. The outdoors and Scouts camping is the classroom where they learn and put into practice working together. I was deeply saddened when I read that Patrols are no longer allowed to camp as Patrols without any adult supervision. I'm not talking about 100 yards away from adult interferences. I'm talking about Patrols who organize, plan and carry out a real Patrol camp. My feeling is that the Scoutmasters and the adults we have just don't have the know how to train the Scouts /PLC to be able to do this. I'm not sure what went wrong, where it went wrong or how it went wrong. I know that the leaders I see just don't have the skills needed and worse still seem to have no interest in getting these skills. Troops seem happy to gather up as many parents as they can, get them into a Scout shirt then sign them up as leaders. I have no idea why this is happening? The last thing I ever want to do is baby sit a group of adults. (OK, I do it at work!). I personally never had more than six ASM's and most of them were far better at traditional Scout craft than I'll ever be. Re: "As a Wood Badge course director, do you publicly insult your participants for "dressing up" in EXACTLY THE SAME "vintage Scout uniform" as Troop 238?" I spent a some time thinking about what uniform the staff would wear. I had some people on the staff who thought we should look like a Rockwell painting. In the past I'd been through all the sillieness of keeping an eye on what the course SM was wearing and having to change so we were all uniform in uniform. I'd sat through a development weekend where over an hour was spent discussing if we should wear long socks or short socks. In the end being as we had Venturers on staff and the Boy Scout uniform isn't part of Venturing (The red jacket and campaign hat.) We went with the uniform that of the position that the person held. I also strongly dislike hats of any sort. I own a couple of campaign hats and a goodly supply of rain covers for them. But I find them to be a real nuisance. So we had a ball cap made for the course and everyone, staff and participants wore the same hat. People were free to wear whatever length pants they wanted. Some of the female staff members made it clear that they were uncomfortable wearing shorts. If Troop 238 is happy with their uniform? More power to them. My argument about the Scout uniform has always been about the hight cost of it and my feeling is that as long as it costs an arm and a leg, parents will be unwilling to allow their sons to wear it as anything but some kind of a dress uniform. While my Scouting days are almost over. I know that come hell or high water, there would never come a day when if I was SM the Troop Meeting, be it indoors outdoors or on the moon would be devoted to the Merit Badge Class of the week. I'm willing to have any Scout who I signed off as having met the skills needed for First Class Scout prove to anyone that he has indeed mastered the skills. I've sat through PLC meeting where the Scouts have looked like deer caught in the headlights and acted like the three vultures in Walt Disney's The Jungle Book: "What shall we do?" "I don't know!" "What do you want to do?" "I don't know?" And yes I have stepped in and yes I have given more than a friendly nudge to get them thinking and coming up with things they didn't know that they wanted to do. I've also had PLC where I've been very politely been informed that I'm not needed and to just have the vans ready. I do believe that we have a problem. My thinking is that the leaders are not receiving the outdoor training that is needed. This is a kinda Catch 22 situation. The Scouts coming along have not been trained and so it goes on. In the last long term plan the BSA set a goal of recruiting one million more volunteers. While of course not all of this one million (Which didn't happen anyway!) Would be working with the youth. I think we'd serve the Scouts better by recruiting people who want to do more than just sit around a camp fire while keeping an eye on their son. People who really want to learn the skills that Scouts need to be able to have more fun, face new and exciting challenges and feel confident about themselves both now as Scouts and later when they grow up to be adults. I may not feel the need to wear a campaign hat. But for me, no matter what todays date is. I'm still doing my best to give the Scouts in my charge the best possible Scouting experiences I can. That's what the poor unfortunate guys who had me as a Scout did. So maybe that's traditional Scouting? Ea.

Someone please help me out. What am I not seeing? Is "A Philosophy of Traditional Scouting" About dressing up in vintage Scout uniforms? Has the Philosophy of Scouting really changed? Aren't we still the value based organization that we have always been? If Troops aren't doing traditional Scouting activities and we feel a need to lay blame? Shouldn't that blame be laid at the feet of the Troops who aren't doing traditional Scouting activities? Do I need to buy Bell Tents and go running through the long grass to be a traditional Scouter? I think not. Ea.

Please don't tell anyone. I kinda hate to admit it but when I was CD, I kinda sorta was happy to think that I'd selected the right people to do the job and my thinking was, it was something that was done and put to bed. It was really strange. The Lady I asked to be Scribe first was a Lady that I had a history with. We both just didn't get on or like each other very much. We hadn't got on for years. She was the Cub Scout R/T Commish for one of the other Districts and even though she wasn't my favorite people I was very impressed with the job she was doing as R/T Commish. Cub Scouters came away from the R/T's she was in charge of with a bag full of different resources. She spent almost a full day each month photo-copying things at the Council Service Center. Looking back, I was really not very nice to her before the course. When the then SE was trying to control the costs of photo copying he had a code on the machine for each District. Each District was supposed to be charged for each copy. Just to be a pain whenever I used the machine I'd always stick her code in! It turned out that she did a truly wonderful job for me. I stopped using her code and started using the code of her DE. (I thought the idea of charging Districts was silly and was trying to prove a point.) Ea.

While I know that a correctional facility isn't an airport. At work I do have to pat down a lot of inmates several times a day. Security comes before just about any and everything. Inmates and some of the people who visit them will go to almost any length to get contraband into the jail. Hiding stuff in artificial limbs, on babies, you name it? I'll bet someone has at sometime tried it. At the airports in London while your standing in line to get past security, very often you have to encounter the happy smiling face of the guy who does the profiles, asking the set number of questions. Even if I hadn't packed my own case or bag, I'm not sure that I'd be willing to admit that to him? When President Bush was at the National Jamboree, I couldn't help feeling that the security was almost laughable. In part because there were just too many people going through all about the same time. I'm not sure how true it is? But there was a story of a young Scout going into the woods for a pee and it seems there was someone FBI ? Or Secret Service? in full camouflage in the weeds and the Scout got the shock of his life when the guy stood up and let it be known that he didn't appreciate the bath. Ea.

travers211 Thank you. I feel sure that what you have written will be a help for others who are asked to serve. I nerver had the Scribe job. Not really my cup of tea. As CD I asked a Council Board Member who owned a company that deals with business machines if he could donate a copier to the course. He did, in fact he ended up donating and leaving the machine for camp use. When this thing arrived it was the size of a small house. -Well almost! It had the capability to do just about anything and everything, as long as the person pushed the right buttons. It was really fast. I was really intimidated by it it. Both our Scribes thought that they were in Heaven with it. I tasked our QM Staff with taking care of First Aid. Thinking back the only request I remember coming from the Scribes was that we set a deadline for the Patrols as to when they needed to have articles and stuff in by, if they wanted it to be in the next Gaz. We were also very fortunate, one of our TG's in the real world is a professional photographer for our local newspaper. Photo day at Wood Badge always seems to take twice as long as it should, but this fellow zipped through it in next to no time. Ea.

"Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross." I couldn't disagree more. I'm very much a run of the mill ordinary little fellow. Not really expert in anything and certainly not an expert in religion or the different religions of the world. By volunteering to be a Scout Leader, I set myself up to be and act as an example to the youth members who I serve. All this in an organization that is about doing what it can to teach ethical choices to the youth members. In order to do this I fall back on my values and my beliefs. While at times maybe when things go very wrong I do act as a policeman, judge and jury. I don't impose my religious views on others, still I don't shy away from them. To do so would be wrong. While I don't claim to know a lot about other religions, I respect the religion and the people who follow or practice it. I most definitely don't see discussing right from wrong or sin with the youth we serve as in any way crossing the line. My values and beliefs are very much a part of me and a reason why I volunteered in the fist place. Ea.

While maybe the Nuns at Holy Cross School may have gone a little over the top, putting fear into the little guys and girls in their charge? I can't help feeling that a lot of us today are scared that we will do some irreparable harm to our kids and he kids we work with if we tell them what they are doing is so wrong that it is a sin. We reward kids for just about any and everything, play soccer without keeping score, everyone gets a trophy. Yells of "Good try" fill the air.But yet when someone does wrong (Sins.) We have an alphabet of illnesses and diagnoses that are used to cover up the wrong. Parents become the whipping boys for children who behave badly. It's the parents fault that little Tim was scared by a plumber when he was being potty trained and this caused him to become a .... I do see that all of us and our children are exposed to people pretending to do wrong at all times of the day and night on TV. The bad guys as a rule get caught but along the way the good guys are jumping in and out of bed with who ever is available at the time. Our children who have access to the world wide web can find out and often see all sorts of sins being committed and sometimes glorified. I don't think we can protect our children from this sort of thing. I do think that it's important that we take the time to talk with them and listen to them so that they gain an understanding that things are wrong and some things are indeed sins. Eamonn.

Is the BSA regulating the fun out of Scouting? Only if you let it happen. Most of us are not really experts in all the stuff that Scouts do. Finding an expert isn't that hard. Sometimes it costs a little more than we might like, but there isn't very much that a group of Scouts might like or want to do that can't be done. Sure there are age appropriate activities, but we can use the age requirement as the carrot that keeps them coming back to do whatever that might be? All too often we read a lot more into things or worse still allow misinformation to be our guide. I care for and about the kids I lead. Remembering to put a PFD on each time you go on deck, is at times a pain, but it sure beats ending up dead. I'm willing to look at the risk and using my own common sense determine how big it is. While it might be OK for a Webelos Scout to climb a tree, it might be just too much risk for a Tiger. We have a few nits who seem to think that being a Boy Scout is the same thing as being a Navy Seal and we do need to save the kids we serve from nits like this. I don't always follow all the rules. I do everything I can to ensure the safety and well being of the kids in my charge. I'm going to let the Scouts on a kayaking trip find a safe place for a quick swim, I'm going to post a Lifeguard to watch them. I'm not going to mark off the area and do all the stuff laid down in the SSDP. I might ignore the fact that a pioneering tower is a little higher than maybe it should be, I'm not going to ignore if it's a lot higher. I've been play at this Scouting thing for a good while. The biggest danger and the most accidents I've had to deal with have to do with Scouts cooking. Nothing big, cuts, burns and that type of thing. So far no one has said that we have to eat at local fast food restaurants. Scouting isn't that hard, grab some kids who want to do something and are trained by someone who knows what they are doing and has some imagination along with maybe the ability to remember what is like to be a kid will have fun, can seek out and enjoy new activities and face new challenges. We can all fly with the eagles if we just stop hanging around and listening to the turkeys. Ea.

At one time in the UK Scouts were allowed to wear /carry a sheath knife as part of their uniform. Due to some Scouts being stopped and robbed by other youth who mainly wanted their knives the knife was taken from the uniform. Still most Scout camps were OK with Scouts being allowed to carry and use a knife at camp. Most Troops had a unwritten rule that Scouts had to meet an pass the requirements for hand- ax and knife. Other than catching the odd few Scouts playing "Splits, a game where two Scouts took turns throwing the knife in the ground and having to place their foot where the knife stuck in the ground. (I think here in the USA it is sometimes called chicken). Knives weren't really much of a problem. Young Lads really bought into the romance of owning and carrying a knife. As a Chef I use and have used knives a lot and I'm very skilled with using them for food preparation. If the knives in the patrol boxes are not any good or are dull? Fixing that ought not be a big problem. I sure as heck wouldn't use that as an argument for Scouts carrying a fixed blade knife. I think it is important that we cover and teach Scouts all about sharp tools. Teaching them that they are tools and not toys is a very big part of this. While I don't have a problem with knives, I don't feel the need to carry one strapped to my side. I'm fine and dandy with my Swiss Army knife. I'm guessing by the title of this thread that many people feel that allowing Scouts to carry a knife is just too big a temptation? That maybe we feel that Scouts just can't be trusted? If we want the Scouts we serve to be trusted we need to trust them. I have never made a big fuss about knives. Most times when the Scouts see that I don't carry a sheath knife their "Need" to carry one fades away. Maybe having the guys who do carry sheath knives be the guys who get selected to peel potatoes plays into this? Sometimes rather than looking for problems and trouble can be avoided by taking plenty of no notice. Ea.

There is no way we can know if the people who post here in the forum are who or what they say they are. I really don't exactly know what a troll is. Which might be a good thing as I'd hate to call someone a name that I'm unsure of. Some little time back someone who said she was the mother of a Scout asked about the positioning of a patch. I can't remember what patch or where it was supposed to be sewn. As ever the discussion meandered and covered why she was doing the asking, why her son wasn't going to his P/L or SPL to gain a deeper insight into correct patch positioning. All the poor Lady wanted to know was where to sew a patch on a uniform. In the thread that this one came from, someone claiming to be a youth member asked about if there was a rule or not about BOR's. As I said we don't know if this was a youth member or just someone stirring the pot? My question is should we tailor the way we reply to the person who is doing the asking? Or is it OK for us to use the question asked as a topic for discussion, ignoring the person who asked the question in the first place. Would we if faced with a real live breathing, warm blooded Lad answer the same way as we do here in the forum? Just asking. Ea.

"Im probably the only American that finds the English accent grading. " OK Barry you have my permission to read my posts with an American accent. It's kinda strange the need to pick on others. At one time in England it was the Americans. Then the English took to holidaying in Spain, but wanted everything there to be like it was in England (Fish 'n" Chips and warm beer!) Then the Japanese started to travel. I can't remember what it was we picked on them for? But maybe it was just because they were different? Last I heard the Germans were the guys being accused of behaving badly. I think maybe as other countries seem to do well, we get to meet the people who come from wherever that place is and it takes us a while to get to know them and understand them. I have just about crossed the line where I have spent more time living here in the good old US of A then I did in England. I love America, I love Americans (Yes even HWMBO and my son, both are Yanks!) The people here in the USA have shown me great kindness and great understanding. I admire the work ethic that we have here. I have never felt the class pressure, that was around in the UK when I was growing up. I can never thank America and the Americans for all that they have done for me and all that America has given me. All too often we hear about the immigrant arriving here in the USA with very little money. In my case that's almost true. When we decided to move here, we sold just about everything We had a fair amount of money. But the week we were to move the Pound took a nose dive. The exchange rate was $1.33 to the pound. I got mad and left most of the money in an account in the Bank of Ireland, leaving us with very little. That money has never made it across the pond. (Thankfully it is no longer in the Bank of Ireland!) So while I don't see myself as being wealthy, I do see myself as being comfortable and not wanting. I'm more than happy to stand up and cheer for the USA and the peoples who live here. I will gladly say God Bless the USA. Eamonn.

We talk a lot about the Boy Led Troop. Over the years there have been times when I have thought that I got this and had it down to an art. Only to find that I was wrong. I've used the PLC as what might be called "Carrier Pigeons". They have attended PLC meetings and I have told them what we are going to do and had them return to their Patrols to inform and sell the ideas to the Scouts that they lead. I have played the role of a coach. While maybe not as directive as the message giver and maybe more open to hearing and receiving input from the youth members, still I felt that it was my game, my ball and for the most part I called the plays. The times when I have been willing to truly pass on the running of the Troop to the PLC have been few and haven't lasted. Mostly because the faces at the PLC change and either I haven't trusted the new faces or they just weren't willing to get the job done. In these days of Leadership Lingo, I suppose that I have failed to get the PLC to the "Performing Stage." I could beat myself up about this. But I don't. Most times I'm way to busy doing whatever it is that we are doing to give all this stuff any thought what so ever. Like it or not most Troops I know tend to do stuff that interests the adults that are around at the time. I like messing around with line, rope and pioneering. I don't know that many kids who can't wait to join a Troop and build a tower or floating flag pole. I'm guilty of selling them the idea and then developing an interest in it so what comes next seemingly comes from them. I don't like the cold. Is it then kinda strange that winter hikes have never been a big part of the program any Troop I've been associated with? I'm not saying that it has never happened, I have allowed the PLC to talk me into it every now and then, but it's rare. I read all this about what National says and how Scouts are not doing this, that or the other? Truth is that I don't give a monkey's uncle. What National says has as much to do with what we do as a Troop as the Troop down the road has. If a Scout in some other Troop some place, some where can become an Eagle Scout without ever camping, cooking, wearing a uniform or some other silliness? I just don't care. The program we (I) come up with is for the Scouts that I'm involved with. Like it or not, at the end of the day I'm very much at the wheel. Maybe more like the conductor of an orchestra? The baton is in my hands. The music is there on the sheet, but how I along with the other players choose to interpret it? Is down to me. I can choose to cut corners, look for loop holes and that sort of thing. Or I can do my best to do what I think is for the best. All the time knowing that when all is said and done the buck really does stop here. Ea.

Very often what seems to happen with these less than active?? Scouts is that they were active, did meet all the requirements needed for Eagle Scout rank, needing only to complete a couple of badges and the project. During this time for whatever reason attendance falls off and a lot of times the enthusiasms they once had start to fade. They then decide that having come /got so far that they might as well complete their Eagle. Even though the requirements have been met, because they are no longer at each and every meeting someone decides that they are not active. - Which might well be the case? Still when it comes down to having met the requirements. They have been met. In some cases a Lad cam meet all but a few of the Eagle requirements by the time he is 13 or 14 and then only needing the couple of badges and the project he falls off, only to return to complete everything when he is 17. Not active? As long as he remains a member, is on the charter and the requirements have been met. What's the big problem? I'll take a stab at that. The big problem is that most Troops don't offer a program that holds the interest for older Scouts and a good many Crews just never get off the ground, with too few members to get anything done. More and more I'm starting to believe that the time to change the age grouping is now and that even though there are a few successful Venturing Crews, Venturing has been around long enough too no longer be new or the new program, it just doesn't work. Ea.

Hi Calvin, A lot of times when someone wants to know if there is a hard and fast rule that is written in black and white they want to use the rule as some sort of ammo to get back at someone or bash them over the head with. I kinda think this is what your trying to do? I might be wrong. I'll bet while you have been in Scouting that you have heard some of us old people go on about "Building Character". For me as an old guy this talks to me about doing the right thing. Not because someone has taken the time to write down a bunch of stuff, but just because it's the right thing to do. To tell the truth I know that had I been at the BOR that you attended, the patch thing wouldn't have been a big deal. Sadly someone made it into a big deal. More sadly you got caught up in all of this and it kinda seems that you are a little upset. This patch and where it was or where it wasn't really isn't a big deal. What you do next is a very big deal. You can get upset and the more you dwell on it, the bigger and more silly it will become. Or you can learn from it all. You already know what the board expects, so fixing that ought not be a big problem. But the more important lesson lies in you knowing how you felt and remembering how you felt. Just as there isn't a rule about how badges are fixed to a uniform there isn't a rule about how we go about being kind to each other, how we treat each other. All to often when something happens to us we feel that we can't wait to return the favor and hit someone else with the same type of thing. - Some kind of crazy idea that because it happened to me, then it's OK for me to do it to someone else. Calvin, I hope you can get past this. Attend the next BOR looking sharp and dressed to kill. Then bowl them over with a great smile and how well prepared you are. Then when the time comes for you to serve either as a board member or maybe even the guy who is interviewing someone for a job in the real world and the guy has a stain on his pants or is a Scout with a badge that isn't where it should be. You will remember just how you felt about the people on this board. Adults aren't always right, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn something from them. Good Luck, please post when you become a Life Scout. Eamonn.

I'm sorry BluejacketScouter for me when I see: " I've spoken with the individual several times in an effort to draw him out or "mentor" him, but he doesn't like me very much since I got his pal the rogue Cubmaster bounced out of the unit." This raises a red flag. Could it be that you are doing your best to ensure that this guy isn't allowed to gain membership? From what you have posted I really feel that you are going way beyond just being a Scouter and are very close to crossing the mark. I'm not an expert on how the background check is done. To the best of my knowledge the BSA has contracted this out to a company who does this sort of thing. The report goes from that company to National and from National to the Council. Each and everyone of us need to do all we can to ensure that the kids we serve are safe and free from harm. The background check is a big part of this. We all should be happy to go along with what comes from it. While it does seem unfair that when someone is turned down that they remove their kids from the program. This is their choice. We have no control over this and we need to look at serving all the kids not just dwell on the kids who are removed or might be removed. Something here, about all of this sounds a little fishy, at least to me. Eamonn.

A couple of thoughts: Had a nice Lad who was a Boy Scout, was very active. Met all the requirements for Eagle Scout rank other then the project. Got involved with the local volunteer fire company and wanted to become a EMT. The EMT classes were on th same night as his Troop night. He completed his project, went before the ESBOR who deemed that wasn't active. There was a big fuss. Lad's Dad was very upset, Council Advancement Committee felt that they needed to stand behind the members of the board and that not doing so would send the wrong message. SE got involved. He contacted his bosses at National who more or less told him to sort this out ASAP. He tasked me with it all. It was clear that the Lad had met all the requirements and that the ESBOR had overstepped the mark. Sure while he was going to the EMT classes he hadn't been attending Troop meetings, but he had met the Eagle Scout requirements.. He received the Eagle Scout Rank. We have a few Sea Scouts who are also Boy Scouts. The Ship has made it clear that it (The Ship.) Doesn't work on Boy Scout Advancement. If they want to complete their Eagle it needs to be done with the Troop. When I was Skipper, I just didn't have the time to be over seeing two sets of advancement requirements and wrong as it might be? I felt it was unfair to the girls in the Ship to have Boy Scout awards that weren't available to the girls be awarded to the boys. Ea.

Anyone who is willing to come between a parent and their son, is far braver than I am! I really liked what Oak Tree posted in the other thread. Troops need to communicate to both parents and youth that as a Troop we are going to do everything possible to ensure that Scouts master the skills needed to become a First Class Scout. We will support Scouts with their advancement, but at the end of the day it is their advancement and up to each Scout to decide if he wants to use the opportunities that are available for him. I was very much the proud Dad, when my kid made Eagle Scout. Still truth be told he was 17 and had reached the stage where he was very much his own man. He is also very mule headed and at times very stubborn. Which of course comes from his Mother's side! The more people seemed to get on his back the more he rebelled. The bigger deal everyone made about Eagle Scout the more he talked about kids he knew that he deemed unworthy of the rank. We as adult leaders need to take a long hard look at what we decide our job /role really is. I decided a very long time ago that my job was training the youth leaders and helping them deliver the best possible program. While there were times when I got involved with quality control in the area of advancement. (MBC's not doing what the requirements said.) Other than offering words of encouragement, that's about as far as I was/am willing to go. Once parents get this message there is no need for a Leader to have to get between Scout and parent. Ea.

Gander Mountain opened a store about half a mile from where my office used to be. I used to love to just go in and window shop. Sad thing is that I'm a sucker for a sale and ended up buying all sorts of stuff that was just too good to pass up. Over time a lot of this stuff has somehow managed to become owned by the Ship. I still only work about a mile or so from the store. I took it as a sign of old age when I went in th other day and came out without buying anything. While cooking on board a boat is not the same as cooking over an open-fire or while hiking. Yard sales are great places to find just about everything needed to out-fit the galley. We sadly just had an old time pass away. His wife contacted me to see if I knew anyone who might want his Scouting gear. He was 82. I visited his garage where he kept all of his gear, all very neat and everything in it's place. A lot of this stuff could well be used as an exhibit about how we used to camp! Most of it hasn't seen the light of day in over 20 years. It has now found a home in one of the out buildings, till I get to find out what's really there and find new homes for it all. Ea.

I agree with Oak Tree. It comes down to communication. If a parent wants to browbeat their son? That's on them. I've never seen my job as being to push Scouts into doing stuff that thy don't want to do. In fact I have a very long list of things that while parents maybe might like seen done, I'm just not going to do. By the time a Lad is of Scout age he should be able to decide a lot of things for himself and be able to manage his own parents. Ea.

Attending the World Jamboree in England wouldn't have been difficult for me. I was part of the team that selected who from our Area/Region could go.In fact the then Area Chair. Was a little upset with me when I said I wasn't going. The truth is that I know it doesn't cost about $10,000 for my son and I to visit London. There was no way I could justify spending that amount of money. A great many of the adults who did apply to fill the Troop leadership positions were people who had attended in the past Some of these guys had attended a good many. Back when OJ was still a Scout we camped with a pal of mine and his Troop. OJ joined a Patrol and that was about the last I seen of him. He had a great time and still keeps in contact with some of the Scouts he camped with via Face Book. I was in Ireland when the Pope visited. I joined my young cousins as they waited to light the biggest fire ever to welcome him. Scouts from all over Ireland lighted fires all the way around the coast. My cousins son in Toronto was in Scouts for a while and last I heard my sisters son had got involved in Scouts in Hong Kong. -They are moving to Australia soon, so maybe him and his sister will get involved there? Some parts of Scouting are truly global. The good turn each day is as far as I know just about everywhere, as is Be Prepared. The basic idea of people living up to a value based code is also in play. The words might be different, but the basic idea is the same. Uniforms differ a lot, but the neckerchief seems to be fairly universal. Just about all the places I've visited and seen Scouting in action have been places where the people who live there are not that different from most westerners. I very much doubt if we were in some Muslim countries if we would be thinking about co-ed Scouting or allowing gays to join. This doesn't make them wrong or us right. It just makes them -them?? My thinking is that it's wrong for me to try and force my views on what I think is right on them. Right now the gay thing is big here in the states, not just in Scouting but all over. Many of us might like to see a change in the way we go about things. I for one would welcome a local option, where the Chartering Organization can allow or not allow gays to serve. But as of right now the BSA has stated that Avowed Homosexuals are not allowed to serve. I think but I don't know, that maybe the BSA is under a lot of pressure from the groups that sit on the National Council, not just the LDS Church, but the R/C Church, other Churches and maybe some of the other service organizations. This has very little to do with if Scouting is global or not. It is what it is and it's the way things are done here. If other places and other countries do things differently, then that's what it is there. Every four years the Scouts of the world get together to learn from each other and at the same time see the good stuff that Scouts from every corner of the globe share. That for me is what global Scouting is all about. Lord Baden Powell had hoped that by bringing young people from all over the world to the table that is Scouting, that we might one day through the young have world peace. I think he felt let down by the two great wars. Still it's a nice step in the right direction Eamonn.

My biggest problem with the uniform isn't what it is or isn't, it's the cos of the darn thing. For a lot of Scouts a Scout uniform is the most expensive set of clothes that they own. Most Scouts only have one uniform, so the idea of doing anything where it might get ruined is something that just isn't going to happen. I'm very much for full and correct uniforming, but my feeling is that it is almost something that back in my day was called "Sunday Best". Like it or not getting a Troop into uniform is not always easy and as long as it costs an arm and a leg, parents are going to not want to allow Scouts to wear it other than when they have too. So it becomes a dress uniform worn only on formal occasions. Ea.

A forum member from the UK posted some of the requirements that Scouts in the UK have, many seem to deal with international Scouting. They weren't around when I was Scouting in the UK. As a Scout Leader back in the dark ages when I was there, we did as a Troop camp outside of the UK. While maybe we managed to give the Scouts we took a better understanding of what was happening outside of England? I kinda think if the truth were to be told it had more to do with the international experiences being a carrot that held the interest of the Scouts and kept them involved in Scouts, Scouting and the Troop. Offering an international experience is not the norm for most American Boy Scouts. Sure we pack off some to attend World Jamborees and a few Troops and Crews do camp and travel outside of the USA. I bet if I were to say to most if not all of the SM's in my area that Scouting is supposed to be global, I'd get some strange looks and most would think I was full of it. While most if not all Scouter's know and are aware that there are Scouts all over the world the feeling is that while it's nice at the end of the day it amounts to a hill of beans for them and the Troops that they serve. Kinda like me knowing that the Roman Catholic Church is global, but still when I attend Mass its not something that I dwell on or think about. Other then when they might have a collection to help out overseas. Most people who haven't taken the time don't know that the BSA isn't just based on Scouting For Boys and the good stuff that Lord Baden Powell came up with. There was in the early days other organizations that came together, other ideas and people with very strong views who came on board. The distances from Sea to shining Sea is vast. How the Scouting program is delivered at the local level and the diversity of the Scouts who receive it is great. The number of people youth and adult is also great. While offering international experiences to American Scouts might be kinda nice, I'm not sold on the idea. While I was attending the conference on Delivering Commissioner Service at PTC. At the same time there was a conference going on about International Scouting. From what I seen apart from a guy from Mexico and a female Scouter from Germany, most of the Americans were serving at the Council level and from talking with these their main focus was helping the Council with World Jamborees. We do in the USA have a International Scouter's Award. I kinda like the fact that I'm the only person in the Council I serve who has it! When it comes to Scouting here in the USA and the BSA the idea that "Scouting is supposed to be global" Really doesn't carry much weight. Sure some of us have had the opportunities to meet with and visit Scouts outside of the USA, but I have had Sea Scouts who until they joined the Ship had never been outside of Pennsylvania. Ea.

"So where does the blame get put and what could get done about it?" Not getting what you want or expect is sometimes a tricky subject. Take your car into the garage to be fixed? My feeling is that you have a good case for getting the job done right. Order something at a restaurant and get something that is well prepared, cooked right, but turns out to be something that you just don't like? Again my feeling is that no one is at fault and you should pay for what you got. I'm not sure what was sold to the Scouts? I'd imagine they got/received everything that the camp had to offer: Food, other services and instruction for this lifeguard class. What they didn't get was the certification. If they were sold the class? Then that's what they got and no one is to blame. If however they were sold the certification? Then maybe they have a case for some sort of reimbursement. Very often here in the forum people post complaints about the poor quality of merit badge instruction at camp. At a good many camps for a good many badges the requirements that should be met are cast aside and replaced with just a requirement to attend the MB classes. Failure is not an option. I wonder what would happen if MBC's started informing Scouts that they hadn't met the requirements and refused to issue anything other than a partial for what was met? Some Scouts would be upset. I'll bet some SM's would want to have a word with the people in charge. Some might go as far as to threaten not returning. Some parents might feel that their kid got a raw deal. Are we selling a summer camp experience? Or Merit Badge classes with a guarantee of badges at the end of the week? Ea.

Thanks Lisabob. You post: "As for comparison to others - this is just not a very American thing to do. We have a tendency to assume that our way is the best way, without examining the evidence or considering alternate interpretations or measures." For a very long time I thought this was just something I was thinking. I was kinda guilty of this "Our way is the best way". Line of thinking when it came to Scouts and Scouting. In my case it was that the English had it right. I have grown a little? Now I'm happy to agree that there are different courses for different horses. Ea.