Eamonn

I was very young when I first became a Scout Leader (SM). Thankfully, there was in the District a great guy who was SL of another Troop who was willing to take me under his wing. Still even within my own Scout Group, there was a feeling that I was very much like a bull in a china shop. The Committee thought I was moving things along too fast and spending way too much money. I was young, I didn't like to wait for anything and I hated being told "No". When I wasn't around Scouts, I liked to hang out with my mates in the local pubs, drive my motorcycle maybe a little too fast, my hair was kind of long, my pants were kind of very wide, my music was kinda loud and I was very vocal about being anti-conservative. While maybe? I didn't see it at the time. I'll bet a good many of the Committee were worried and had a few sleepless nights. I'm very much for having younger guys and maybe? Girls be part of the Troops leadership team. While I do see a few areas that might need to be addressed and talked about, for the most part I see having younger people around as being a good thing. Many, in fact most of the Troops in the area where I live has had the same SM for a very long time. Most also have a handful of ASM's who have served alongside the SM for a good number of years. Every now and then a Dad or a Den Leader will cross over with his son, or with a group of boys from local Packs. As a rule these new faces don't tend to be around or last that long. In part because they never feel that they are part of the "Inner Circle" Or part of "The Team". Wrong as it might be, there are a lot of units where the leaders are so used to doing things the way that they have got used to doing things, that new faces are seen as being the face of change and change isn't very welcome. The sad thing is that a lot of the time these older guys who want to close ranks and not accept new faces are the same guys who harp on and complain that no one is helping them. Sometimes you just can't win for losing! Ea.

"And Moxie, you can buy those soft rubber backings for about $0.02 at most sewing stores" Failing that, I have a "Stab proof vest" that I have to wear for work. They cost a little over $400.00 each. I'm happy that a lot of the clutter will be gone. Also glad that if I ever buy a new shirt that I'm not going to have to spend almost as much on knots as the shirt costs. Ea.

Engineer61 I can't answer your question other than to say that I don't know. My guess is that what happened didn't come to light at the time it happened. The Lad's father was an ASM in the Troop and maybe the family just didn't want to make a fuss. I'm trying to think what I might do (have done.) Had it been my kid and I was faced with the problem. Have to admit that I'm not a great lover of having kids get a criminal record that is going to haunt and follow them for the rest of their days. I don't have a lot of faith in the juvenile court system. As a parent I might not want my son to have to face testifying time and time again, re-living what might have been an uncomfortable situation or might have been traumatic? Think it's way too easy for us guys sitting at our key-boards too Monday morning quarterback saying what ought and what should have been done. I do however believe that once the Council became aware of what was happening it (They?) Should have revoked the Lads membership thus ensuring that he couldn't join another unit. I really have no idea what training SE's have in dealing with situations like this or in fact with any real case of child abuse. The last few SE's we've had never struck me as being that bright! The guy we at when this happened (Now gone.) Just didn't want to be involved. The DE had less than six months on the job. We can but hope that the Lad who was out of line finds some way of dealing with his behavior, be it from some kind of professional help or just finds someone or some group where that sort of thing is accepted or maybe he is just so immature that in time he could/might grow out of it -Truth is that I don't have the qualifications to say what help he might need. We can also hope that he never wants to get involved with Scouting again. Other than a few letters that I wrote there is nothing to prevent him from doing so. Ea.

Why day do dat? Is an age old question. If you can find the answer and bottle it, you can make a lot of money donate it to the pack and never have to bother selling that foul tasting stuff ever again! Until then I found counting to 100 under my breath helped me. Ea

While there are lawyers who are trying to make as much money as they possibly can, doing whatever it is they can to further that goal and doing so without any scruples. Still, to date I have yet to meet one. It's a little too easy to use lawyers as the fall guys, placing the blame for what ever happened on them and greedy victims. While I don't know any of the victims. I'm almost sure that in some cases the smell of a dollar has brought some out of the woodwork. However, from what I've read there seems to be no dispute that the BSA was aware and did know of cases where abuse was happening and knew who was doing the abuse. While Training's like YPT have helped cut down on the number of reported cases of abuse and are in my view a good idea. I do sometimes question who the training's are really protecting? In the "Real World" I'm one of the Staff Trainers in the facility where I work. I cover a wide range of subjects from preventing suicide to First Aid and preventing rape in jail. I have to sign off that everyone who has attended the trainings has indeed attended and that I have followed the Training Guides. In the event that something goes wrong. It's almost a given that two things will happen. One, there will be an internal investigation. Two the victim or his family will sue the Department. While so far it hasn't happened to me. I have heard of cases where for example an inmate has successfully managed to harm or kill himself, the family has sued. The Departments defense is that the staff are trained, the staff trainers are also fully trained and the department will provide a copy of th training syllabus. Records of the dates, times, location of the training's are made available. Staff Trainers will say that they presented the Departments training's as they are in the syllabus. So who does that leave to take the blame? Not the department! They will claim that they did everything possible and took every precaution to prevent anything from happening. Of course it can also be said that if everyone followed, all the policies and adhered too all the rules, all the time. Nothing would have happened or that there's a good chance it could have been prevented. My point is that a lot of the time training is as much about coving the tail of the organization as it is about protecting the individual. A few years back I posted about a 17 year old male Sea Scout who was caught trying to perform oral sex on another 17 year old male Sea Scout. The Ship's Committee wasted no time in removing this Sea Scout. I reported what had happened to the SE. The SE was happy to pass the buck and let the DE deal with it. The DE a rookie came back to me saying that because of my past having served in a few high profile positions that he thought I should deal with it! The Sea Scout was also a Boy Scout in a local Troop. The DE wasn't sure if I was allowed to talk to the CO of the Troop. I decided for myself that I would meet with the CO, the COR and the CC of the Troop, they decided to invite the SM. At the meeting it came to light that this Scout had made sexual advances to the son of the CC. A lad four or five years younger than him. They removed the Scout from the Troop. I requested that the SE revoke his membership. He didn't. Saying that as he was 17 He'd be gone soon! I documented everything sending copies to just about anyone and everyone I could think of, including my own attorney. I know and am very aware that at 17 this Lad was a youth member. The mother of the Sea Scout who was abused didn't want to involve, the police. She talked with the father of the lad and he promised to get the lad some help. I wasn't at all happy with the outcome of it all. Without revoking his membership the Lad could have joined another unit and who knows what might have happened. Thankfully so far he hasn't. In a lot of cases the BSA at the local level seems happy to pass the buck and try and hide behind the CO. In these "Old" Abuse cases this doesn't seem to have happened. The BSA knew what was or what had happened, they kept files on the people who were doing this type of thing, but yet seemed to be willing to do nothing. If it can be proved that by knowing and doing nothing the BSA helped these perverts abuse and harm others? Then the BSA needs to be held accountable. While as a parent I was willing to use my own judgment when it came to the people I trusted my kid with, I do think if others knew that my kid was being placed with someone who had a history of abuse and harming children and didn't tell me? I'd have every right to be very upset. I don't know why the BSA ever wanted to try and cover this sort of thing up? I do feel that the BSA has let us as volunteers down and made it a lot harder for us to trust them and parents to trust us volunteers. All of which is a shame. Shame on them for all of this. Eamonn.

I'm willing to bet 100 Guineas that we keep Pi. Ea.

acco40 I really don't hold any strong views on marijuana. I do know that some kids will do some really dumb things in order to get high. A little while back the local new was full of kids who were "Huffing". Local hardware stores and paint stores did their best to not sell the materials that these kids were using. The fact this this synthetic marijuana was legal (At that time) and ended up killing the poor kid, in my view makes this all the more sad. Talking with my son last night, it turns out that he knows the father of this Lad. My son is a volunteer fireman and this poor kids Dad is a local volunteer Fire-chief. I agree whole heartedly that young people will do and do, do stupid and really dumb things and make poor choices. My hope is that us older folks can help prevent them from doing things that really harm, hurt or in this case kill themselves. Jumping off a very high cliff might not be illegal, but the landing is sure going to cause a lot of harm.(A lot of the time anyway!) Ea.

Have to admit that I'm not really sure where I am on all of this. When it comes down to doing or not doing what is right? The person I need to deal with first and foremost is myself. Sounds kinda easy, but at times it's not. While I can see, hear and know that something isn't right. There are times when there can be pressure to allow this wrong (Something that's not right) To slid. Which is in it self also wrong. Much as I hate to admit it. When I witness something that I know isn't right, my first concern isn't so much about fixing the wrong, but more about covering my own tail. At work just to cover my own tail I will report and document things that I know are wrong, not so much in the hope that whatever it is /was will be addressed but just so if and when something hits the fan I can excuse myself from blame. Even if I know when I report something, I know in my heart of hearts that nothing is going to happen. I try to convince myself that I've at least done my bit and can't be blamed for being complacent. Having been raised as Roman Catholic, I was both saddened and shocked with the sex scandals that went on in my church. Shocked because I didn't want to ever believe that the men I'd looked up to all my life could and were in fact guilty of doing these horrible and nasty things, shocked because people knew that they were doing this sort of thing and allowing it to continue. I think I can forgive a fellow human for doing something wrong, but have a much harder time forgiving an organization that covers up the wrong doing. When victims of the abuse in my church started winning large amounts of money to compensate them for what had happened to them. I'll admit that I did feel this was maybe an opening of the flood gates and every Tom, Dick and Harry would be making a claim of having been abused. Part of me did want to try and lay the blame at the feet of those who had or maybe had? Been abused. However as it came to light that the cover up had not just been a pal or a friend covering for another pal or friend, but reached to the very top, the people who not only were aware of what was going on but also going to great lengths to cover up the wrong. My faith in the people at the top was very badly shaken. In my little world, I can see how an individual can give into his or her personal temptation be it abuse of others or driving drunk. I just don't get how others feel that they need to cover things up. Recently it came to light that a State Policeman had been caught driving drunk, but someone had tried to cover it up. I understand the guy having one too many, I don't understand the cover up. It does seem that the BSA knew and was aware that some people were doing things that were wrong. I deal with people on a daily basis who have done wrong and bad things. Some of these wrongs were done a very long time ago. The fact that they were caught, convicted and may have already served a good many years in jail for what they did doesn't ever make what they did any less wrong. I don't believe that just because someone wasn't or hasn't been caught for the wrong they did makes them any different than the guy who was caught. As for the organization? It also knew what it was doing by allowing and covering up the wrong was not the right thing to do and is guilty. This cover up is for me a very big thing by not acting on what it knew, by not doing the right thing it needs to be held accountable for what it did do and what it failed to do. My big hope is of course that this will prevent churches, organizations and the like from trying to cover things up in the future. Eamonn.

http://www.wtae.com/news/29602905/detail.html I didn't know this little Lad or his family. Kinda strange I live in a small town where everyone seems to know everyone. While it was a very foolish thing to do, at the time he smoked this stuff the stuff itself wasn't illegal here in PA. It is now and while it might be harder for Lads like this poor kid to get, sadly just making it illegal doesn't mean that kids aren't going to try. Some will manage to get this stuff and some will get hurt and Lord help us some will die. I'm not sure how many States still allow the sale of this Synthetic Marijuana ? We have lost to my knowledge just this one little Lad and that's one too many. Please talk to your Scouts warn them that this is very dangerous, warn their parents. It's too late for little Brandon. The best we can do for him is offer a prayer and prevent others from falling victim like he did. Eamonn.

On the bright side. HWMBO has worked in our local ER for almost 30 years. No way of telling how many gays she has played a part in getting too go straight!. Ea.

Lost count of the number of times when OJ said "That's not fair!" My reply was "Hey no one said this is a democracy>" I'm a reasonable fellow with reasonable expectations. Little Lad misses a Troop meeting? Yes I notice. Misses two meetings? I start asking his pals, "Where is he?" Misses three, I start to worry and either pay a visit or give him a call. Little Lad tells me that he is having a hard time at school and Mom has said that he can't go to Scouts till his grades improve. I wish him the best of luck and let him know that we will be here when things get better. Little Lad tells me that he "Just didn't feel like going to Scouts!" I give him a few wise words from Eamonn. If after that he still doesn't feel like going to Scouts? Then he isn't being reasonable. Everything is put on hold till he has a change of heart. I think that's being reasonable on my part. Each and every case is dealt with on a case by case basis. Ea.

"I know that as primarily a cub scout leader my opinion doesn't mean a lot here,.." I really hope that I have done nothing to make you feel tis way. There aren't that many volunteer positions that I haven't held. Some I've liked more than others, some have been a lot more fun than others. But please believe me when I say the people I respect the most are our Den Leaders. Most have kids the same age as the little fellow in their Dens along with older and younger kids. These people are on the go from the time they get up in the morning till bed time. Yet they take the time to work with these Lads who are still learning and while they might be bright eyed and have innocent faces can be a real handful. I have never held the belief that any volunteer outranks or is more important than any other volunteer. My fear for the out door program is partly based on the fact that so many people who have the outdoor skills are like me on the way out. We old timers have to shoulder the blame for not doing such a grand job of passing on these skills and providing the spark that would have lit the fire in the new and up and coming leaders. In many ways when we moan and go on about the lack of Scout skills we need to point the finger at ourselves. Ea.

Thank you WAKWIB, Looking at what I posted, I see that I might be guilty of painting a picture full of doom and gloom. Truth is that as long as boys are around that can never be the case. No matter what's down the road? I still think and like to think that there will be adults who will remain able to remember what it's like to be a boy. Still able to enjoy the things that make boys boys. While I'm a little uncomfortable when people talk about "Pay checks" I do believe that for a great number of us payday is when we stand back and see a kid or a group of kids having fun and hear their happy chatter and laughter. Yes I know it's kinda corny. But it is so very true. Ea.

For the up-tee-nth time I've been up-dating my retirement plans. The hard truth is that as long as I'm able to do what I'm doing and enjoy what I'm doing, I really don't want to retire. But deep down I do know that the day is going to come and I don't want not to be ready or have not made plans. Kinda strange that my new plan looks very much like the first plan. As so far as Scouting goes? I had thought that I might be around to see my grandson join and that I'd maybe be there to lend a hand and kinda show him the ropes. However being that he isn't even a twinkle as yet and anything that might happen is not going to happen for about ten years or more, I've come to the conclusion that there's a good chance that this is never going to really happen. This got me thinking about what changes will happen too Scouts and Scouting over the next ten years? No I'm not talking about the gay thing! I think we have beaten that horse to death in the other on-going thread!! Some change has already happened. Areas have been changed, Regional Offices have closed and there have been changes in the way the National Office is set up. For the most part for the end user (The Kid). This hasn't made any difference what so ever. The uniform has been altered but if you ask me we seem to have so many uniforms around at the moment we are anything but uniform. My thinking is that over the next few years while there will still be a uniform it is going to become something that is worn by very few and only used for very formal events. Much the same way as kids wear shoes that need to be polished, most have a pair somewhere? They just never wear them. Opting to wear trainers, or tennis type shoes. Training has changed a lot over the past few years. Courses have come, gone, been re-named and altered. The big change that I'm not sure that I like is how it is delivered. While I see the good points that come from on line and individual at home training. I think not having the interaction with others and getting introduced and forming relationships with other local Scouter's is a bad thing. Still Internet and on line training is not going away. In fact I think it will not only become the norm but expand. My thinking is that the days when people like myself sign on and are around for a very long time are going. Volunteers will still sign on, but they will volunteer to do a specific task, that takes a specified amount of time. Once that task is done and completed that person will move on. Training for the tasks will be delivered on line. The impact of what is happening with finances today is going to be around for a very long time. Money is very hard to get. Councils are hurting, donations are way down, money from investments are not bringing in as much as they used too and costs are rising. Like it or not, there will be change. Some Councils, especially the smaller ones in the NE-Region are not going to survive. Districts are going to cover larger areas, with less DE's covering them. Many camps owned by small Councils will be sold off replaced by Regional Activity Centers and Regional High Adventure bases. Regions will be able to afford this when they receive the windfall from not only the sale of the smaller camps, but also the money that failed Councils have in endowment funds. My hope is that sometime in the not so distant future someone takes a long hard look at the age groups. I don't think what we have in place right now really works for the youth we are trying to serve. I of course hope that any changes are made with the interest of the youth in mind, not just some "Clever Plan" that makes membership look better on paper. While I'm all for co-ed scouting. I'm not sure how long it will take? Maybe more than ten years! While I know that myself and many old timers like myself aren't going to like it, my guess is that Scouting is not going to be as outdoor based as it used to be. Kids who want to be Scouts but have no interest in camping and traditional out door skills will be catered for. This will fall in line with the new volunteers who have no interest in learning skills that they don't have, but are happy to volunteer to cover a subject that they are good at with a group of Scouts. Scouts will have to join forces with other and more outside groups to participate in the things that they want to do. Advancement as we know it will be replaced with something that is more tailor made to fit and cover the individual interest of each Scout. Of course I could be 100% wrong about some or all of this. While maybe some changes will be good? Some are not going to be that good and could end up hurting the organization many of us love and have worked for, putting in countless hours. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Comments and other ideas are welcome. But please, lets not go down the gay path again!! Ea.

John-in-KC, Hi John, At the risk of sounding like an old record that's stuck! My problem with the statement: " When will National realize this *IS* affecting membership" Is that I really don't know. You post "Follow the money" I think we are both long enough in the tooth to know (Yes know, not think!)That money is very important and is seen to be the driving force of what happens in the BSA. I say "Is seen" because a lot depends on who is doing the looking. At the grass roots level local Packs, Troops, Crews don't need that much money to operate or stay up and running. What money they do need is as a rule raised locally. Parents fork over their hard earned cash, local people buy candy bars, eat pancakes, have their cars washed and that sort of thing. At the next level we have Councils. Councils need money to survive. All the people who work in the local Boy Scout Service Center where I live expect to be paid and there are costs involved in ruining a service center, camps and in providing services that some local units have come to expect. Some might argue that we could get by without spending as much as is spent by Councils and some might go so far as to say that Councils are an unnecessary expense. I'm happy to leave that to another thread. Where do Councils get their monies? In the area where I live, we have a small Council with a budget of about $1.5 million. (It was $1.3 a few years back and I'm not sure what has happened in the last couple of years.) About seven years back, one of the two local United Ways said that they were no longer going to give the $100,000 each year like they had been doing in the past. At that time they (The UW) looked at who was receiving money from them and said it was silly for them to be donating too organizations that were sitting on large amounts of money that these organizations had in endowment funds and the like. The UW decision had nothing to do with any BSA policy it was just how the UW wanted to donate. While some Councils do have a few very wealthy people who are willing to donate very large sums of money or companies that will donate large sums, in the area where I live, that isn't the case. There is a near-by Council that courts a little old widow who donates a lot of cash to the Council but insists that the money is spent in a specific way in a specific area. The Council has with her money built a wonderful conservation center at their local camp. A Council like the one I'm in, just like the local units has to turn to the local people for its money. The first port of call for a Council like this is the volunteers, the very people that the Council is servicing and supporting. Go down the list of donors in the Council and while there are at times windfalls, when someone dies and leaves a large sum, for the most part the amounts are not that big. In fact last time I looked very few people are donating at over $5,000 a year. Most of the donations fall between the $500 - $100.00 range. With a lot of that coming from events such as dinners and golf outings. While I don't have any hard numbers, my guess is that now about 25% or more of the spendable income is coming from the annual popcorn sale. Back when I was District Chair. I really tried to move all the silly goals that the Council imposed on the District to just one big goal. Where as we had: A district goal: Income from the members of the District Committee. Family FOS goal. Money from FOS presentations given at the unit level and a Community Goal, money donated by local people and businesses. I wanted just one goal that covered all these goals. My thinking being that I could bring in more money from the local business community as I had good connections in that area and I would hopefully not have to go to the units. My first big set back was when a local business that sells lots of furniture in our area said that because of the gay issue it was no longer going to donate. The business is family owned. The family does a lot for the community, but the owner is openly gay. I was $10,000 short before I even started. $10k is one heck of a lot in a small District. The loss of $10k is a lot for a Council as small as the one I'm in. I have never seen or looked at the financial statements from the National Organization. My thinking is that trying to wade through them to gain any real understanding of anything would be a real nightmare. While I don't know (I really don't know!) My thinking is that everything is broken down into all sorts of different organizations. Magazine sales and advertising? Scout Stuff? Income from membership? The list might go on. I tend to thin that the big CO's don't donate that much money. Again where I live all the local churches are having a rough time. Attendance at services is in a big decline, income is down and services are being cut. Sure some members who belong to these churches might or might have donated to the BSA, but the organization it-self? I'm not so sure. Given the choice of giving a million dollars to the BSA or building a new church? My bet is that the church will get the cash. Right now the BSA is proud to have brought in a big pile of money to fund the new Jamboree site. (I'm to lazy to look up the name of it.) While from what I've read and seen the place looks good, the ideas are good and the BSA is right in being proud of having found the funding. But while maybe because it's not that far away from where I live, our local Scouts will more than lightly get to use it and benefit from it? I kinda think that the percentage of Scots who ever get to visit it will never be that great. What I'm saying is that money and income comes from membership. The Council I'm in can't make it financially without the cute little fellows selling popcorn, the volunteers handing over their hard earned cash. Again locally we have one LDS unit and about half a dozen units chartered by R/C churches. (In the entire Council). The LDS unit is very much part of the church, but the R/C units? Not so much. When the Pack in my church was failing, my church did nothing to prevent or help stop the rot. The pack folded, the church didn't seem to notice and life went on. We can follow the money, but I think the real money is coming from the parents and the volunteers. This gay issue is a P/R disaster for the BSA. Big business like the fortune 500 companies are not going to want to be seen as being close to an organization that discriminates. More and more it seems to me that the man in the street couldn't care less who's gay and who isn't, but does care when something seems wrong and sees discrimination as being wrong. This wrong is something that is going to make him think twice about allowing his kid to join and him to volunteer and become a member of. Without him the local units fail, there is no one to ask for a FOS donation and popcorn sales don't happen. To my way of thinking this is where the real money is found or lost. (I am of course seeing it from a local perspective) Ea.

What a shame. While I've never been there a very good friend in the UK and the Venture Unit he is leader of went twice. They had nothing but good things to say and the pics that they sent me were wonderful. A sign of the times, I suppose. Ea.

"Would you have done the same if you were committee chair?" I most certainly would never have sent this letter! Ea.

I know that I've posted this before. The Troop I was Scout Leader of back home in London met three times a week. Wednesday was games night. The Scouts were free to play indoor soccer, table tennis, board games or do nothing and just hang out. Thursdays we rented the local public swimming pool. Scouts could work on the swimming badges or just have fun in the pool/ Friday night was Troop night. We camped almost every weekend in the summer months either as a Troop or Patrols took off to do their own thing. We had small Patrols with only six Scouts to a Patrol. Before it got too big and we split the Troop we had 96 Scouts. While there was never any pressure from me or the other adults, the Scouts became so involved in the Troop that there wasn't much time for much else. I was unmarried and had the time to do all of this. Parents were happy as a good many of the Scouts came from what we called The Flats, here we might call them The Projects and many kids made bad choices and ended up on the wrong side of the law. Ea.

Oh my! The very idea of a group of old timers with hairy legs and bad fitting hair-pieces burning their beads! If that doesn't teach em? Nothing will. "I used to an occupier and good Old occupier too But now they call the coppers, I don't know what to do? I tried burn my beads, but couldn't find a match. Think I'll join the Girl Scouts. They'll think I'm a real good catch! Ea.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Sure there are a few Forum Members who seem to only pop in every now and then when they want to stir the pot that they have stirred many times before. I haven't checked the list of how many times each topic has been brought up for a little while. Last time I did I remember thinking it was funny that the Uniform Threads almost doubled the number of Working with Kids threads. Looking at what was going on in the Forum today, I see that an old thread from 2005 has been re-started. I kinda, sorta flipped through it. Not really reading it, but did look at the names of the people who were active back then. Some of them are still around but a good many have moved on. Some were just people who liked to make the odd comment, while others were at times like a dog with a bone on some subjects, once they got it they weren't going to give it up. Very often a thread will start off heading in one direction and then take on a life of its own, getting so far away from where it was going that the only way to bring it back is to spin off. There are a few people who just enjoy baiting the other members, some who know that if they post such and such that it will annoy or get a rise out of one or two other regular Forum Members -It happens! -These one or two could opt to take no notice but most times don't! Much of what is posted is a rehash! What can be said about uniforms? I like it. I don't like it. It's great. It stinks. Everyone should wear it. Just wear the bits that you want. A pal of mine is a moderator on another Scouting Forum. That Forum doesn't allow posts about Girls, God or Gays. It works for them, but I kinda like that we can talk or not talk about almost any subject. (Even what a rotten job the Moderators are doing!!) Please don't feel like a "schmuch" -It just isn't worth it! Feel free to add your two cents, then if the mood moves you stand your ground or just leave it out there. It will either be gone in a day or two or get legs and drive some other poor soul crazy. Ea

Just for the record I'd like it noted that I didn't post in the 2005 Thread. I was busy trying to organize a bunch of dirty, left wing fanatics to occupy Gilwell. Ea.

To be honest when I read: "When I was a kid in Scouts many years ago it was a given that I would go on every camping trip. By the time I made Eagle I had only missed one camping trip ...." It reminds me of the old: Back when I was a boy we walked five miles each way to school... If attending each and every event worked for you? That's great. But maybe it's not the same for each and every Scout. Sure there were times when I was a Lad when I looked at what was on offer and I choose to participate in events that maybe really weren't my cup of tea. The reasons for this were varied. Sometimes it was very much about being with my pals, knowing that while maybe the main event wasn't that great, but I knew we'd have fun anyway. Sometimes it was very much about wanting to please the adults. This was mainly when I was a young Scout. Sometimes it was just the opportunity to get away from home for the weekend and what was on the agenda or where we went wasn't that important to me. My guess is that most of the regulars who post and join in the discussions here in this forum are very passionate about Scouts and Scouting? With the level of commitment that most of us here have it can be hard to see and understand that not everyone is that committed. There are a goodly number of Scouts who are great kids and great Scouts who are happy to attend the weekly Troop meeting and pick what other activities they participate in. For many Scouts and Scouting is just one other activity they participate in or belong too. For many years I sat through the awards part of our Council Recognition Dinner. I was amazed how many other activities the guys who were on the receiving end of the Silver Beaver were involved in. I'd sit there and wonder where they found the time? I'd look at myself thinking that I'm out doing stuff almost each and every night, so where do these guys find the time to be so deeply involved in so many other good and worthwhile activities? Most times I found that these guys did choose what they wanted to spend their time doing. They didn't get involved in the silly stuff like spending forty minutes talking about the design of the next District Camporee patch. When we talk about being thrifty? While attending a weekend with the Scouts is all well and good and for most of us both youth and adult it has to be really bad for us not to have fun. But when this takes away from what needs to be done, we aren't living up to the Scout oath and law. Applying pressure to try and make Scouts attend activities is just foolish. Ea.

Most of the time there is a reason why Districts merge or get realigned. While there can be lots of reasons most often it has to do with membership and or finances. The truth is that other than a few District type volunteers, who more than lightly are as unhappy as anyone about changes, no one really cares where you go to attend R/T, where you camp what events you choose to attend or not attend. So you choose to go with the District down the road. The down side is that your more than lightly not on their mailing lists, so finding out what's going on might be a little harder. No matter what happens the District that the Council has you in will get the credit for the good stuff you do. Go out and recruit a bunch of new Scouts, they will be listed as being in the District you black balled. Donate a lot of cash -Same thing. While this might not matter to you? It seems a little unfair that the guys who are allowing you to participate in what they are doing (Like it or not as your not a member you are a guest! Yes you need an invite, you can't just decide this is what you want.) Are not benefiting from having you along. If you have a Unit Commissioner? He will hail from the District that your supposed to be in. There's a chance that if there are competitive events in this District that your really not a member of and you start doing well, some of the real District Members might get a little peeved. If you have adults who have worked hard for the old District over the years and you jump ship, they can kiss the chance of ever receiving the District Award of Merit good-bye. As an ex-district chairman, I'd ask you to think long and hard before jumping ship. The grass might be closer, but maybe it's not as green. Eamonn.

We can all think what might happen, but we really don't know. To say that " this *IS* affecting membership "? Just doesn't sit well with me. Just as to say that it isn't. Doesn't seem right either. My guess is that as the younger generation gets older it very well might affect membership. Sure we have the LDS Church and the Catholics, while I haven't looked at the charts lately or done the math, but I wonder if a lot of the not so big CO's were to say that they'd walk away if the policy didn't change, if that might outnumber the two big guns. What happens when the VFW elects officers who are openly gay? Locally some of our Methodist Churches seem to be welcoming more and more gay members. Who knows? In time they might end up on the church boards and start telling the BSA to go take a hike. The answer is really blowing in the wind. Of course once the gay thing is worked out there is always the "God" thing to worry about and work on!! But that's for another thread. Whatever happens there is a good chance that not everyone is going to be happy. I have a very dear and close friend. We have been friends since we were teenagers. He was a Scouter in the London area. When an openly gay man became his District Commissioner, he got so upset that he left England, moved to Utah and joined the BSA. A change in the policy would break his heart! Ea.

"Boys will participate in the things that they enjoy." Yes that's what I said. Seems a big leap from that too: "Today my guys pick and choose what they want. Most could care less about their patrol, it's all about what "I" want." A few years back the Rolling Stones came to Pittsburgh. I paid $230.00 for a ticket. A month or so later someone gave me tickets to attend a Rick Braun concert. Not being a lover or fan of Rick Braun I didn't go. This doesn't make me selfish, just not much of a Rick Braun, jazz lover. Take a stroll through my music collection and you'll find a very wide range of music. I consider myself music lover. Scouts have every right to pick and choose what activities they want to participate in and don't want to participate in. This doesn't make them selfish or not great kids or great Scouts. I hate the cold. A day on the ski slopes is not my idea of fun, anything but! While I have taken a group of Venturers skiing it was only because the adult who was to take them backed out at the very last minute. What does really irk me is when someone says that they are going to do something or be somewhere and then lets everyone down at the last minute. This is one of my many pet peeves. I'd sooner have a Lad say that he hates skiing and tell me that he isn't going than just not show up after saying that he would! When we pressure kids into doing something that they really dislike? We are asking for trouble and these high expectations are a reason why so many kids quit. Sure we cover a lot of good stuff and well meaning stuff, but when we forget that kids join to have fun and remain only when they are having fun we miss the boat. Ea.