Eamonn

I agree with Hunt when he says: You'd have to know many more facts to evaluate whether there is a valid claim here or not. In fact I'd hold back making a comment until then. Eamonn.

While I wish you nothing but the best. I do however believe that there comes a time when we have to accept that we are unable to do anymore. We, being the District, Council, Commissioners and Membership Committee. Someone from the unit has to want it to continue. Over the years I have lost count of the number of units that have called me telling me that they need a leader. Of course I don't have a waiting list of people waiting in line to step up to the plate. When we have tried to get a unit up and running by planting non-unit leadership (Either members of the membership committee or Commissioners)things work out OK until the time comes when they have to leave. If there is no interest from the CO and the people in the unit have no interest in supporting the unit, it is doomed. Much as I hate to be full of doom and gloom, I do make a point of telling this to the CO. We at one time had a District Commissioner who was very good at bullying parents, even going as far as locking the meeting room doors and telling them that they weren't leaving until they came up with the adults that were needed. Those who did agree only did so in order to get the door unlocked and didn't last very long. I strongly recommend that if you really want to save this pack, that you send in the District Membership Chairman, have him meet with the CO and form a Nominating Committee. If you follow the Nominating procedure, selecting and asking the people who have been selected you will not only save a lot of time but the end result will be better. But if no one is willing to step up? Maybe it's time to look at finding a new CO, one who not only supports the program but wants it. Eamonn.

I can only echo what jd posted. Thanks for reminding me that we have many different sorts of Lads and many different ways of leading. I sometimes forget. Eamonn.

Hi Sue, Uniform is not a requirement for membership in the BSA. But the rules and regulations state that if you do wear it you comply with the rule. As for the rumor? A while back there was a rumor that there would be a new uniform for the last Jamboree. It didn't happen. There is a rumor that there is going to be a new uniform in 2010? I have not heard or seen this from anyone other than volunteers. So I really don't know. Yes the Canadians have changed the way they look at uniforms and several other countries (The UK and Australia I know for sure) have changed. Most of the comments about the new uniforms in these places have mentioned Fast Food!! Sales of uniforms do bring in a lot of money and without wanting to start a fire!! - I really do not see the BSA wanting to lose that income. I know that we in our little Council do count on Uniform Sales to bring in money for the Council. Last year I sat at a B&G Banquet. The CM was getting his Wood Badge beads. The pack was /is a large pack from a well to do area (The banquet was in a classy Italian restaurant) Not one Cub Scout had on the official Cub Scout pants. On one side, sitting next to me was our Area President who had been the course quartermaster and on the other side was our SE who was in the same Patrol as the CM. We all noticed the pants and we all agreed that maybe it was time for a rethink, but in the next breath said it wasn't going to happen. Eamonn

The official BSA Scout uniform is just that. If you read the Rules and Regulations. Clause 4.Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation this is spelled out very clearly: (a) No alteration of or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations therefore on official occasions may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee. I think that wearing a kilt, Native American dress or anything that isn't the official uniform would be seen as an alteration. While a PLC can say when the uniform will be worn, they can not say what the uniform is. A Troop Committee can not change the official uniform. Like it or not we only have the official uniforms and altering them is breaking the rules and regulations of the BSA. Rita, you might want to show the Lad a copy of the BSA rules and regulations or you could show him the rule as it is written in the Insignia Guide. What the Lad does after that is his choice. But you will have done your part. While I would not go as far as refusing to present the award, I would really do my best to explain what Uniform means? I also would be a little concerned about opening a can of worms, when it comes to allowing ethnic dress to be come part of Boy Scout ceremonies. I don't see an Eagle Scout COH as an OA ceremony, I see it as an official Boy Scout ceremony a very important ceremony. Hopefully the local press will cover the event and we as a uniformed organization would want to look like the Boy Scouts of America. Eamonn.

I wish that there was an easy answer. I very much doubt if the DE came up with the idea of replacing the District Chairman all by himself? Replacing anyone can be done when the District Charter runs out. We all serve one year at a time. Our council strongly suggests that the term of office for a District Chairman be a 3 year term. The big question I would ask is why does the DE feel that the Chairman has to go? And what does the District Commissioner say? We have in our council seen a District Chairman replaced because he wasn't supporting the council, this as you know is part of what a District is to do. However this didn't come from the DE but from the SE. I agreed with the decision, but I think had the Chairman in this case gone to the board he might have been able to make his case. The SE could have revoked his BSA membership, but he didn't and this District Chair was a Executive Board member until such a time as the charter ran out. Eamonn.

I'm in the same camp as FScouter when it comes to the "Friends of Troop 123" This fools no one and really sets a terrible example for the Scouts we serve. Where the money comes from? And do we accept it? I think we accept money from just about anyone. Many of our CO's raise money by selling alcohol and from games of chance. Back when I was a Cubmaster our parish held an annual Parish Fair. While it was never said out loud, we were expected to lend a hand. We helped put up the tents including the Beer Tent, and we ran a stall. I had mentioned that Scouts ought not be participating in gambling so they gave us a stall where everyone won a prize. Yes, we were doing this in uniform. They /we had a band that played polka music and it was fun to watch everyone have a good time singing and dancing eating polish food washed down with an adult beverage. The Council has many fund raising events where alcohol is served and games of chance are played. In most cases there are no youth members in attendance but there are Scouts there for the Flag ceremony and at times they go from table to table handing out "Thanks for your support" gifts. I have said that I think having the Scouts there is wrong. So while I don't think that this is a good idea. I do see that it would be hard to look a gift horse in the mouth. If I was the CC I would talk to the CO and ask if it would be OK for the CO to participate in this fund raiser and then take it from there. If your CO is the local temperance society, I'll bet they will say no. In which case all is lost. Your CO might see this as a way of getting money into their budget and want to keep the money. Then you and the adults might want to do this as a service project? I really don't like the idea of Scouts or young people serving alcohol. I don't know what the state law is where you are but in PA. You must be at least 18 years old to serve alcohol. Not trying to hijack the thread but, I remember what a little rotter I was!! Even as an Alter Boy, I thought it was fun to sample the wine when no one was looking. If you have Scouts around and they are anything like I was you will need lots of adults to keep an eye on them. Eamonn.

I thought I seen that one coming!! But that's under the heading of .... Eamonn

Please don't tell anyone!! The Indian name is still in the truck. However they informed me it means: Small Big Mouthed Snipe. Small because I'm not very big - I'm working on the rest of it!! Eamonn. It seems the youth wanted: He who bears fruit. But it wasn't allowed.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Have to admit to feeling both very pleased and humbled because over the weekend I was elevated to a Vigil member of the OA. Having OJ as my sponsor made the honor all the more meaningful. You bet that I slept well last night!! We also held our elections, sad to say OJ didn't get Chief. The Lad that did is a great Lad and a pal of OJ's. OJ, is going to serve a 3rd term as Vice-chief Admin. He is jokingly saying that he will hold that office until he ages out. We have a really nice bunch of Lads who will be serving as the Lodge Officers next year. Eamonn.

I just fail to see why a kilt is anymore acceptable than other other item of "Non-Official-Scout-Uniform"? If the Lad was the fruit of Punk Rockers would it be fine and dandy to wear punk rock garb? I feel sure that most forum members would say not!! We have the uniform. We as Leaders in the BSA should encourage and promote the uniform and the uniform method. However, if at the end of the day we make the case to the Scout and he makes the choice not to wear the BSA uniform, the choice was/is his. He may choose not to wear the uniform for all sorts of reasons. Some which might seem more acceptable to some of us than others. While having a uniform and opting not to wear it just because he wants to be different, doesn't sit well with me. (No matter if he wants to wear a kilt or his PJ's) Not wearing the pants because he doesn't own them seems to me to be more acceptable. Sure I would try to see if there was some way of having him wear the full official BSA uniform, but I try and see if there is a way to get each and every member in full uniform. Eamonn.

How about on Neckerchiefs? Eamonn.

I think a lot depends on where you plan to have the meeting? Back when I was CM the meetings were in my home dining room. The meetings were by design very informal. In fact I went out of my way to make them into more like social meetings. Very often we had wine and cheese as well as soft drinks on hand. My feelings were that if Mom or Dad had taken a night off away from the kids, they might as well enjoy it. We kept our Agenda very short and sweet, but you would be surprised at the amount of work we got through once the meeting was over!! Please don't be scared to treat adults like adults. Eamonn.

With no right or wrong answers and I promise not to climb on my milk crate!! What activity do the Scouts or Crew Members in the unit you serve enjoy the most? Maybe you could post where they do it, if it is done at a specific location. The new Sea Scout Ship that I'm the Skipper of hasn't really done a lot, but they really got into floating around in USCG Mustang Flotation suits and thought that the Pyrotechnic Launch of different flares was great. Still Matt seemed to have a great time eating oranges - I never seen a Lad eat ten oranges for lunch and take four more for later!! Eamonn.

By now you are more than lightly on your way. The experience is by design intense and the schedule is hectic. I think that there is way too much sitting on day one, but I never was one to sit still. If you can go with an open mind. Remember that it is not a Boy Scout Course, but a Leadership course and do your best to be a team player. There should be no need for jitters. If you have been fortunate enough to have gone through the high priced Leadership and Management workshops and seminars, please give the staff a break. They are volunteers and not earning what the guys who present the workshops earn for presenting and in most cases they don't have the same equipment. The last course my company send me to cost over $4,000.00, most Wood Badge courses are in the $200.00 range. Eamonn.

OGE. November 15, 1999 was the last time a Lord Rowallan sat in the house of Lords The Labour government banished the hereditary peers from the House of Lords. Gives a whole new meaning to job security!! Even if they offer me a seat, it no longer means that OJ will be the Next Lord of Fulham And Hammersmith. So it seems that there is no Woolsack in our future. Still the pay was never that good: 128.00 overnight accommodation, 64.00 for day subsistence and 53.50 for secretarial assistance. Eamonn.

I agree that we are never going to have a program that is laid out in black and white -I don't think we want one. I do believe that we can use the methods of Scouting to help and guide us along our way. If we take all the methods as being of equal importance and do what we can to make them work, we surely must be on the path to providing what the BSA has in mind and will end up providing the youth we serve with a program that is in keeping with the vision and mission statements. I visited the UK ScoutBase web site today. I found the following: For the little guys Beaver Scouts young people usually aged between six and eight years old. They belong to the first and youngest Section in the UK Scouting family. Young people can join Beaver Scouts in the three months leading up to their sixth birthday. They can move to the next Section, Cub Scouts, between eight and eight years six months. With the new program that came out in the late 1990's there seems to be a lot more empathize on what they are calling "A Balanced Programme" For Beavers the Programme Zones split the whole programme into manageable areas. Each Zone represents a different development area in a young person's life. There are five Programme Zones in Beaver Scouting. They are: Getting to Know Other People Learning About Yourself Exploring the World Around Us Discovering Creativity and Practical Skills Discovering Beliefs and Attitudes. These Zones are delivered using 12 methods, which give the programme variety and range. Sometimes one method will be more suitable than another. On occasions you may use a number of methods within the same activity. So you should give your Beaver Scouts opportunities to: Help others Play games Explore their world Undertake prayer and worship Listen to stories Follow themes Go on visits Make things Meet new people Act, sing and make music Chat Go outdoors. This changes slightly when they move up to Cub Scouts. Programme Zones in Cub Scouting. They are: Outdoor Scouting Fitness Discovering the World Around You Creative Beliefs and Attitudes Caring and Community Global. Cub Scouts in the UK have 11 methods. Games Make things Singing, stories, drama Visits and visitors Outdoors Activities with others Help other people Themes Prayer, worship and reflection Team challenges Try new things. The Scout Section is for young people, usually aged between 10 and 14 years. A young person can come in to the Troop at 10 and may stay until they are 15 years old. There are six Programme Zones in the Scout Section. They are: Scoutcraft and Adventure Global Community Fit for Life Exploring Beliefs and Attitudes Creative Expression. These Zones are delivered using 10 methods, which give the programme variety and range. Sometimes one method will be more suitable than another. On occasions you may use a number of methods within the same activity. So you should give your Scouts opportunities to take part in: Activities outdoors Games Design and creativity Visits and visitors Service Technology and new skills Team-building activities Activities with others Themes Prayer, worship and reflection Explorer Scouts are young people, usually aged between 14 and 18 years old. There are eight Programme Zones, each with its own aims for the Explorer Scouts taking part in activities in that Zone. The Programme Zones for Explorer Scouts are: Outdoors Skills Physical Recreation Community Service Environment International Relationships Values Unit programmes should always show the following underlying values and ways of working: fun getting on with others activity keeping the Promise personal development working together responsibility. Last time I was in England I picked up some of the new books that they have. It took me a little while to get the hang of how to use them, but once mastered they do go a long way to help plan meetings and answer the "Whats Next" question. I can't try and speak for what they had in mind when they made all the changes. While of course UK Scout Leaders do have the same choice that we have, they can do their best to follow this new program or do their own thing. Eamonn.

I struggled for a long time with the " who has the authority" question. For a very long time I thought that we needed someone or some group that would act as some sort of "Enforcers"!! Yes I know how bad that sounds. Yes I now have come to realize that it's a very bad idea. But for a while I thought a group maybe Commissioners should have the power to ensure that all the rules, all the regulations and yes all the methods were being followed. Still as FScouter has pointed out, we don't work that way. We are about teaching young people how to make ethical choices. In the case of this young Lad and his kilt. The kilt is no way a part of the BSA Uniform. We can let this young fellow know that a kilt is not part of the BSA uniform, we can let him know that it isn't the right thing to wear to an Eagle Scout COH, but at the end of the day he has the final word and the choice is his. I think that I would have a very hard time explaining this to the Lad if I was not wearing the BSA uniform and had not set the example of the time that I'd known him. When it comes down to matters of safety and the well being of our youth members, I do not have a problem using what ever authority I may have to stop or prevent them from getting hurt. I do fall back on the G2SS for this. I have over the years seen Troops that in my view are so far away from Scouting and what we are about that I have been shocked. Still even when I was District Commissioner all I could do was shake my head and raise my eyebrows. The Troop and the Leaders were not mine, they belong to the CO. My role was to offer advise and try to get them to follow the program. Sure there were times when I would have liked to take the SM behind the wood shed or openly called him a twit. But I didn't have the authority. Eamonn.

I read the details about the $100.00 Laptop. http://msn-cnet.com.com/The+100+laptop+moves+closer+to+reality/2100-1044_3-5884683.html?part=msn-cnet&subj=ns_3-5884683&tag=msn_home. I think it's a wonderful idea. What I don't understand is why we can't make this available to students in the USA? What am I missing? Eamonn. That link isn't working - Try: http://laptop.media.mit.edu/(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Be_Prepared is correct. Baden Powell was never Lord Rowallan. There was also in the early days of UK Scouting Roland Phillips. I think he may have been a Lord? He donated a very nice house in London to the Boy Scouts. He had been Commissioner for Scouts in the East End of London, which at that time was the poor area of London. Back in the early 70's I went to Roland House to take Scout Leader Training. At that time the House was used as a hostel for college students. I'm not sure if they lived there for nothing or for a very small rent? I do know that they were expected to serve in a leadership role serving the needs of inner-city kids in the East End. I seem to remember that there was a lot of fuss when the house was sold. It really was a beautiful facility, but maintaining it was very expensive. I seem to remember signing a petition to keep it open. Eamonn.

Kudu, I don't think anyone can come up with an outdoor uniform that will suit every state in the union and every sort of weather condition. Here in Southwestern Pennsylvania it's hard to know if a Scout is in uniform in the winter when he is outdoors all you see is a winter coat. During the summer most of the time Scouts do activities in the activity uniform. Still I don't think what the uniform is, is as important as us the adults remembering that we belong to the BSA as it is today. I know that there are some areas where the Brits do a better job than the BSA. I could harp on about how much better things were in the UK and maybe choose not to follow the BSA. I feel that would be wrong on my part. The Scouts I serve are members of the BSA and I serve at the pleasure of the BSA. As a member of the BSA I'm happy to use everything that it has to offer. It's Me, I think you are right!! Maybe it was /is a rant. But I hope it has more to do with treating Scouts correctly than dumb leaders. The methods of Scouting when followed go a very long way to ensure that the Scouts we serve receive the program that they deserve. As EagleInKY says Troops go through different stages. Different groups of Scouts do things differently, see things differently and have different needs. Some times it seems that everything just falls into place while there are times when it seems everything is a uphill battle. I have no idea if the uniform will change, if we will follow the Venturering Program and allow units to opt for the BSA uniform or one of their own making? I do know that I was aware what the uniform was when I signed on. Eamonn.

Think we might need a tiny bit more info. Welcome to the forums. Eamonn.

Ed, Is it just the kilt thats OK? What if he opted to wear a pair of extra wide black pants with chains and zippers? Heck he could get a Mohawk spike it up and go for the goth look. While his hair would be OK the pants like the kilt would be just wrong. Eamonn.

A 8 page 114 thread about something that doesn't start with the letter G. Wow - That's great!! Maybe we are flogging horse? I of course think that I'm right and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong. However in trying to not be overly smug, I have just read all eight pages and have seen a lot of the "We don't allow" postings. I'm not all together sold on cell phones as the great indispensable safety device. I do think that they can serve a purpose in that area. But I have yet to see any real good reason for not having or not allowing a Scout to take his cell phone with him. With most camps that I have visited having pay phones, I don't buy into the homesickness theory. If a Scout wants to send a text message or phone his sweetheart when he isn't supposed to be doing something else, I just don't see the problem. Most Scouts know how to put the phone on vibrate so it doesn't go off in the middle of a Flag ceremony or other important time - I wish more adults would learn!! Kids think cell phones are cool. I think when we start adding rules that serve little or no purpose we seem old fashioned and anything but cool!! Asking OJ to take Rory for a walk without his cell phone is not going to happen. I would hope that if there was a stupid rule that stated he wasn't allowed to take his phone that he would obey it. But I think he would see it as a stupid rule and that would mean that he would have to make some choices. What do we want from the youth that we serve? That they not attend because of a dumb rule? That they break a rule they see as being wrong and unethical? That we force them into being sneaky? Looking at all eight pages, it would seem that no one is going to change their minds. Sad to say I don't see many of our older Scouts giving up their cells until we can come up with a good reason why they should and we might be guilty of helping them break the Scout Law. All because we don't like something that is not illegal, not fattening, and I have yet to see cause anyone any harm. I have no idea what the next generation of cell phones will bring? I know some can receive streaming video, e-mails, music, take photos and tape live action. Who knows maybe one day the Boy Scout Handbook will be as close as the nearest cell phone and we will be giving the Scouts heck for not remembering their cell phone? He signs off singing in the year 2525.. Eamonn.

I have over the past few days and weeks been a little disappointed at how in my view ready we are to toss the methods of Scouting out the window. Correct and proper uniforming surely has to be a goal for each and every troop? Finding out what the correct uniform consists of isn't hard. Helping Scouts and adults who might have a hard time coming up with the money to buy uniforms might need a little imagination and some hard work. Creating an environment where Scouts will wear it is a test of leadership. I know and have heard just about every argument that has come down the pike, I know that it's not good for a lot of the activities that some Troops do. I know that the shorts are too long or too short, that the cargo pockets are as useful as pockets in your underwear. I wasn't happy to pay $38.00 for two pair of shorts when OJ needed them for NOAC last summer. But what we have is the uniform of the BSA. Not what I think it should be or ought to be, not what each Troop thinks it should be or ought to be. It's the BSA uniform and we don't have the right or the authority to change it. Yes I know that owning and wearing the uniform is not a condition of membership. I understand that some Scouts will not manage to get all the parts at one time and I'm willing to turn a blind eye to that even if it does mean that the Lad is not in full and correct uniform. Thats why I said it should be a goal. There is a big difference between that and the units that tell a new parent not to bother buying the pants or the shirt because we don't wear them in our troop.While the PLC can decide the dress code for certain activities they are not empowered to change what the uniform is. The Patrol method is again in my view one big thing that sets Boy Scout Troops apart from other youth organizations. There is no such thing as a Virtual Patrol. Making the Patrol Method work is not easy. It takes a lot of time, effort, guidance and support from the Scoutmaster.He is charged with training the Patrol Leaders. When I hear that only a couple of Scouts from a Patrol have turned up for a Troop or Patrol activity, my first question is not shall we do with these couple of Lads? My first question has to be why are there only a couple of Lads? If the activity came from the PLC, if the Scouts planned and arranged it, if it was something that they wanted to do - Why aren't they there? Is there a problem with communication? Is there some other problem that isn't easy to see? Hazing? Bullying? Or is it in the way that the Patrols have been formed? Still once a Scout is in a Patrol that is his Patrol. If the program has been followed and with some luck that will be his Patrol from day one till he ages out. Is it fair when members of the Patrol don't support the Patrol? No it's not, but isn't that the role of the Patrol Leader to ensure that everyone knows that this is their team, their gang and that they are all team members. When the adults start messing around with combining patrols and virtual patrols, not only are they ruining the Patrol method but they are are harming the leadership development of the Patrol Leader and hurting him in his Personal growth. The same day as I read the thread about unearned Merit Badges I received a phone call from a very upset Dad. His son had been told that the Troop wouldn't present his son the Merit Badges that he had got over the summer at Summer Camp and at Eagle Camp, until he explained what he had done to earn that at a BOR. Dad is an Eagle Scout,Dad knew that this wasn't right and he was upset. He had met with the Troop Leadership and our DE, everyone said that the Lad has to wait till November for a BOR? This isn't how Boy Scout advancement works.I'm sure that the son has heard how upset Dad is. I can't help thinking; what does he think about his Scout Leaders? What sort of example are they providing for this Lad? Are these people really showing him that they are people of high character? Are these the best adult people he can associate with for his personal growth? I am not a great lover of the Eagle Camp that our Council offers and I have argued against it and lost!! The methods of Scouting do work and work well if we the adults decide that we are here to serve the Scouts that we lead and follow the programs of the BSA. Again in my eyes I don't see this as being that hard. However if anyone is unwilling to use these methods maybe they should think about serving in a position where they don't need to use them. (District Chairman comes to my mind!!) Or maybe this just isn't the right organization for them and they need to look for one that is a better fit. Eamonn.