Eamonn

Mike F, You are of course right. I didn't mean that doing ones best replaced or reduced any of the requirements that do need to be met. Adding or taking away requirements is a no -no. I did mean that if a Lad has set goals and is doing his best to meet the goal, holding him back would not be right. I can't see a Scout leader ever saying to a Scout "Do your best, but do it slowly!!" Sorry for the confusion. Eamonn.

Why would we ever want to prevent a Scout from doing his best? Eamonn

"There are 3 posters on this forum who have met me" I am one of the three!! Just for the record Bob is a really nice fellow. At the Jamboree I didn't see any signs of a tail, or horns. In fact he was doing a wonderful job and couldn't have been nicer. Hey Bob, OJ says Hi and thanks for the Frisbee.

Hi ljnrsu, With all due respect I really don't see that where the Oath is recited changes the Oath. Take a look at the words: On my honor The person making the oath is giving his word, his promise. . . I will do my best . . . This isn't some cookie cutter thing, there is no one size fits all. Surely when a Scout when a Scout come up for a BOR we take into account him as an individual, the progress that he has made and his understanding of the oath and law. Some Lads are by nature a lot kinder than others, Some have to work at being kind, much the same can be said for being brave, I think I could go through all the points of the law and the oath. I agree that Scouts can be removed from activities or outing for misbehavior which more than lightly would fall under the heading of un-scoutlike behavior. Still I see my Oath and Law as a work in progress, every day I try to do a little better. Some days I mess up real bad, on the days I do well I raise the bar a little higher for the next day. Eamonn.

To return to what I think was the original question. When is behavior un-scoutlike? Each of us who have made the Scout Oath have promised to "Do Our Best" Your best in some areas might be far better than mine. Your values might be in a different order than mine. I'm perfectly happy to listen to the radio when I'm driving, some people use this time to become more mentally awake, by listening to educational tapes. I have friends who are up at the crack of dawn jogging, while I'm still in the land of nod, they are doing a far better job of being physically strong than I am. Un-scoutlike behavior is when you know that you haven't lived up to your own high standards. Eamonn.

Oh Boy!! In the thread that came off this one, I advocated that if a unit wasn't a Scouting unit, the best thing to do was jump ship. While I still think this might be the best thing to do, maybe I was a little unclear and maybe a little hasty. I do strongly believe that we as individuals set the example and set the tone. We do lead by example, no matter what the situation might be. I also believe that there are times when things or units are so far out of whack that the best thing to do is distance yourself from them. However, things can and do change. (Hang on here comes the milk crate!!) The Troop that OJ belongs to does not send Scouts to JLTC (I know it has a new name.) Still OJ was asked to be a Staffer, in fact he staffed the old JLTC course twice. He was too busy this year to staff the new course. He staffed one year and then became the SPL of the Troop. While SPL he took some of what he had learned at JLTC and helped change things in the Troop. If a 15 or 16 year old Scout can enable change and make things better, I can't help thinking that adults ought to have a far better chance. God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. Thy will, not mine be done. Eamonn.

Thanks docjwt!! I had been to the OA site but had missed : Q/A: Restarting Active OA Membership Q: When I was a Scout as a boy, I was in the OA and went through my Ordeal and Brotherhood. I am now an adult leader in my son's troop. Am I automatically in the OA (in other words, is OA a lifetime membership)? Or do I have to start all over with another Ordeal, and so forth? A: Once a Scout goes through his Ordeal, he is a member of the Order of the Arrow for the rest of his life. OA membership does require a person be registered with the BSA, so if you left the Scouting program for a while, your OA membership would lapse as well. That was the answer I was looking for, I thought I was right but needed a reference. You Da Man Thanks!! Eamonn.

"Those at Council or District level get paid to right these sinking ships" Hi Jerry, Two years ago we lost pack 111 and this year Troop 111 failed to recharter. Some of the reasons for this go back a very long time. They have mainly to do with one man being a one man band who didn't allow new people in. But that's another thread. Our DE at the time held 111 very near and dear to her heart, her son had been in both the Pack and the Troop. This is where he earned his Eagle Scout rank. When things started to go wrong we had all sorts of meetings with what was left of the committees and with the church that was the CO. Phil, the preacher is a wonderful man and was /is willing to do what he can to support the program. Sad to say the people that he gets to attend to attend the weekly services are old. Hardly any families with children. I know I went and made a plea from the pulpit. Everyone loved and still loves the Scouts, but we just couldn't find adults willing to serve as leaders. We did manage to find a Lady who was unhappy with the pack she was in to become a Tiger Den Leader. She tried to offer a Summer Time program, but when only about half the Den turned up (3 boys) She wasn't willing to give up the time for so few boys. The District was doing everything that we could, the DE was doing everything that she could and maybe more than she ought. The Preacher and the Church Council were doing everything they could. But without leaders and without people from the church wanting the program we just couldn't pull it off. How could we be the youth program for a church with no youth? I don't have a list of adults waiting on the sidelines to be called into service. If there is any good that has came out of this; it is that the Troop and pack down the road that is really following the program and offers a wonderful program is really doing well. Eamonn

JD, I agree with the idea that most people can be trained and with the idea that there are positions within Scouting that are a good fit for most people. For example Her That Must Be Obeyed, knows that she isn't good with kids. Working as a Den Leader or with young Scouts would send her over the edge.She did a wonderful job as a pack treasurer and has chaired the Council Recognition dinner for a number of years. Nearly all the Scoutmasters in the District I serve are Wood Badge trained. Still some of them have decided that they know better than the BSA and have changed and altered the program. Some don't like the uniform, some don't like the Patrol method, some don't offer an outdoor program and sadly some have decided that they don't like very much that Scouting and the BSA has to offer. They know how this game should be played and have made the choice not to use the methods of Scouting. At times I have to wonder what it is they are offering? I know that they have come so far away from what Scouting should or ought to be that whatever it is they are offering isn't Scouting. If a new Scoutmaster wants to make changes, he might be able to pull it off and given time will be able to sort things out. However if the rot has set in at the top, if at every turn the newbie hears "We don't do it that way" I really feel the best thing to do is get away, get out of there as fast as you can. Find a unit that is offering the program, or go about starting one. Eamonn.

"I'm going to have an Eamonn soapbox moment and then I am going to go back to my chipper self." Hi Bob, It's a milk crate!! But don't tell anyone there is a $200 fine for improper use! Eamonn Chipper self ??

I think we have all heard that it's hard to fly like an Eagle when your down with the Turkeys. Like almost everything we do in Scouting and in life, we lead by example. How we act and what we say has a way of reaching others and I believe comes back to us. I know that if I go around moaning and groaning, the people around me will respond with moans and groans. If I try and "sell" a new idea at work and tell the people that "They" say we have to do this and that I think it's a waste of time, the "Sale" becomes a real hard sale. At times when we discussed units, people would say "Well 666, is always like that" or they never do such and such. I dismiss this way of thinking. A Scout unit is a living thing. As something that is alive it is always changing. Sadly it is either growing or dying. Dying units can be saved. Still the idea that a unit that has an ever changing roster will always do the same thing or act the same way, just doesn't make sense to me. I like to have fun, I find that the best way to have fun is by having people around me that feel the same way. Sure we can attend a meeting and be on different sides of the fence but once it's over we can push our differences aside and go and have fun. One reason for our success's as a District Committee is that the people on the committee are people that I as District Chairman selected. Needless to say I didn't select people that I couldn't work with. Not to say that the people I didn't select are bad people, but I wanted a "High Performance Team". Given the choice between an expert who wasn't a team player and a team player who could be trained and would do a good job, there really wasn't a lot of thinking in the choice. If you are in a unit that isn't following the program, then it isn't a Scout unit. If you want to belong to a Scout unit then you are not in the right place. Kinda being in Kansas when you want to be in Ohio. This game really isn't that hard. If you see a need for something then you need to see what can be done to fill it. You may never be able to change the hearts and souls of others, but you can change you. I am accused of being a little too enthusiastic about Scouting and the BSA. I answer this with with "If your Scouting isn't contagious then maybe it's infected" Eamonn.

Hi Bob, While for the most part I agree with what you. Still the Key 3 at times does have to settle for either what they can get or at times what the inherit. I have posted before how when I became a District Commissioner, I gave all the Commissioners a Commissioner Patch and informed them that they could keep it for a year. Still there were times and there were Commissioners who were like a stopped clock, we kept them on in the hope that if nothing else they would be right twice a day. Eamonn.

I'm sure that someone can point me in the right direction. First let me make it very clear that the question is about youth members not adults and has nothing to do with correct uniforming. If a Lad has been in a Boy Scout Troop and then at 15 years old decides that he wants to join a Venturing Crew or Sea Scouts can he continue in the OA if he has been called/tapped out and done the ordeal, while a Boy Scout. I'm aware that he can be both a Boy Scout and a Venture.r, but let's say he wants to not continue in the Troop? If there is any BSA publication or literature that covers this please help by showing me where to find it. Thanks. Eamonn

Yes Ed it was at the Mellon Arena the extra 15,000 people that came into the burgh didn't do much to help with rush hour. NJCubScouter the other day I was agreeing with you when you pointed out how hurtful the Shakespearean quotes are, having a little Sister who has been called to the Bar had a lot to do with it!! You are of course right- So the best thing I can do is open mouth and insert foot!! No you didn't miss the memo. Hey !! It's hard to talk even with an English accent when you have a foot in your mouth - I sound just like the Queen. Eamonn.

My boss informed me last week that we were going to attend a "Get Motivated Seminar" I'm unsure if he thought I was in need of a little motivation or what? To say that I wasn't overjoyed with the idea of spending a day doing nothing when I have so much to do would be a great understatement. But I'm happy to take my pay check, so I didn't make a fuss. The first presenter was Zig Ziglar. He spoke for two hours but it flew by. He was very informative,entertaining, funny and very upbeat. He spoke about taking ownership of what we do and how important it is that we use the I word. He then almost blew my socks off. He said how the Scout Oath started with I. He then repeated the Scout Oath. I could almost feel the passion he has for the BSA along with the love he has for this organization. At the very start of his presentation he said when people ask him "How are you? His reply is " I'm doing better than good!!" I have been allowed myself to become a little down in the dumps with this forum over the past week or two. It seems that I was allowing myself to buy into some of the negative stuff that has been posted. I was wrong. So once again I promise to do my best to do my duty to God and my country.... I take ownership of what I will do not only at home, at work but also in Scouting and I'm doing better than good. Eamonn.

Hi, Sometime back I seen a list where it asked participants attending Wood Badge not to wear white shoes. I'm a little unsure where it came from and why in these days of so many people wearing "Trainers" white would not be acceptable. I can't help thinking that open-toed footwear with Scout uniform socks would look kinda silly and not wearing uniform socks is not being in uniform. I remember in my young days I thought I was very cool in my knee high platform boots, like the ones Elton John used to wear. Our Council requests that campers don't wear open toed footwear at camp. The request is made as a SYT (Save Your Tootsies)type thing. As yet we have to recruit a unit of Footwear Checking Commissioners. When OJ comes home from camp Her That Must Be Obeyed, makes him load his stinky socks in the washer himself. She refuses to go near them,even Rory who will chew just about anything doesn't go near them. Welcome to the forum. I as a rule wear brown leather shoes when I'm dressed in uniform for non active activities?? Eamonn.

I never heard it. Me thinks the Vision and Mission Statements do a better job of telling others what we really are all about. But that's just me. Eamonn.

OGE, While I think I understand what your point is!! I'm sure that you like myself believe that anyone that harms or hurts a child is wrong and needs to pay the consequences. Harming or hurting a child is a terrible thing to do and is made worse when the person who does it is a person that is someone who is trusted with looking after children. I don't care if he or she is a teacher, priest, youth group leader or a scout leader. I was upset when the church that I belong too had what seemed a flock of people world wide caught hurting children and I'm upset when someone from Scouting does the same thing. Sad to say I heard only tonight that something like this has to come to light in our Council http://www.wpxi.com/news/4882091/detail.html The guy is fairly new to our council, only joining us last November and he has always seemed like a nice enough fellow. I don't know any more details than what I seen on the web and I'm willing to let him have his day in court before I pass judgment. Life would be so much easier if all the people who have a tendency to do this sort of thing wore dirty rain coats and had hairy palms, sadly they don't. Just like we are told when we attend YP training, people who abuse children come in all shapes, sizes and from every walk of life, some wear dog collars and sadly some wear scout uniforms. As parents we do our best to teach and train our children, as Scout Leaders we try to do much the same thing. Still there comes a time when we entrust our children to the care of others, when this trust is betrayed we along with the child feel hurt. At the end of the day we can keep on training our children, both our own kids and the children we look after, we can keep trying to put obstacles in the path of people who want to abuse children and then we can pray. Pray that it never happens again, pray for the people who have been hurt and who have had their trust violated and pray for the abuser. The Good Lord knows that they need all the help they can get; many of these people have families who feel every bit as betrayed and violated as we do when this happens.

On Oatmeal? Eamonn

Hi Rick, Talk about not seeing things for what they are!! I was so busy noticing what didn't work, that I failed to notice what did. You have hit the nail on the head. The Parents of the Scouts at the Jamboree did check the web site along with other web sites while their son was at the Jamboree. Some even phoned to let us know who the "Celebrity of the day was!!" Maybe next time I want people to use a web site I will have to see about adding a photos of the Scouts and making it more Scout /Parent friendly. While there are a few people in our Council who are very knowledgeable about computers and this "New Fangled" stuff, there are many more who are still trying to understand why homing pigeons come home? Our SE is still very much in the dark ages when it comes to computers and the like. If anything good will come out of the financial crisis that we are now facing, it will be that our Council Newspaper which never comes out when it should and only comes out five or six times a year, with dates that have either been long past or are so far in the future that no one takes any notice, will be replaced with a decent web page. The savings will be substantial. One big problem that I have with non BSA web sites is that they seem to start off with the right information and then rather than just leaving it be, someone has to add his or her 2 cents. Which might be all well and good if they explained that this was just what they thought or did, but they add it in and some people tend to think just because it was on the web it has to be true. Hey I like to think that I know a lot about this game and how it is played, but I have posted things here in this forum that I have been wrong about. I like http://www.greenbar.ws/index.cfm Maybe because I tend to agree with the thinking behind it? There are some nice charts and things which are useful . Eamonn.

While I have only ever paid one membership fee.I receive a membership card for each and every position that I hold in the Council. As of now I have two cards one as Executive Board Member and one as District Chairman. Eamonn.

Hi Rick, Just by way of a change, I'm with Bob White and agree that what you have so far looks great. As yet I have not seen the new Youth Leadership Training course. Our Council presented it for the first time this summer. Sadly not many Lads signed up for it. I tried really hard to get the Scouts and their parents of the Scouts who were attending the Jamboree to visit and use the Jamboree web site. It just didn't happen. Things worked fine if I used handouts or copied the material from the site, but they just wouldn't use it. Hope you have better luck than I had. Eamonn.

"Just when you think you're not helpful or tolerant, you get a call like this" Thank You. Thank you for the reality check. This little Lad doesn't care if the BSA is looked upon as being too far to the right or the left. He more than lightly doesn't care what Scout Executives get paid. He just sees Scouts and Scouting for what it is, what it really is. Eamonn.

Hi GernBlansten I can see what I can do in my local community to recruit youth members into Scouting. I'm a little confused what you think the guys from the National Office can do? Do you think Roy L. Williams would do a better job of recruiting youth in your area? Or would someone who knows the area and the people in the area do a better job? This year, maybe more than in any other year National has really gone all out to provide some really great tools that will help recruit more youth members. Having G.M. come on board shows that it's not the same old, same old. Of course there are those who will see having corporate America coming in and helping as a bad thing. I haven't looked at the reasons why our Cub Scout numbers are down. I do know that every now and then in the District in which I serve we see a "Bubble". A time when there is a lot more boys of Cub Scout age who are available to join Cub Scouting. When this happens recruitment seems easier. Sad to say once the bubble bursts and the extra Lads are not available, things go back to normal and we are left wondering why our numbers are not what they were. While recruitment does help with the membership total, there is also retention. Keeping the youth that have joined in the program. When it comes to retention, we are only as good as the last meeting. Youth members quit when the meetings are not good. The guys in the National Office don't deliver the program, so how can we blame them when Scouts quit because they are bored? Eamonn.

It would seem that a lot of the organizations that charter BSA units are thinking. From what I'm hearing they seem to think that the BSA is the right program for the youth that they serve. These Chartering Organizations, the groups that in fact "Own" the units are very well represented and do have a voice which is heard loud and clear by the National Council, in fact many of these groups make up the National Executive Board. These Chartering Organizations think that the BSA and the values of the BSA go hand in hand. As for "standard bearer for "ethics and morals" Surely you have to agree that the BSA is a reflection of organizations that it serves, because that is not only what they want, but they are the people who sit on the board and decide such things? So while some volunteers might be less than happy with some things that they might not like locally, the organizations that have been chartering units long before these "Unhappy Campers" were around and will, in all likelihood continue to charter units long after we are all pushing up the daisies. Do seem to be very satisfied and happy to continue partnering with the BSA. Cardinal McCarrick and the other Bishops who said the Roman Catholic Mass at Fort AP Hill during the Jamboree seemed to be very happy with what they saw. Eamonn.