Eamonn

I don't know how much money these things are changing hands for? I can't help thinking that even if it is a myth, it is in some ways changing the way we look at patch trading. I listened to the Scouts that were at the Jamboree with me and the "Gee look at this neat patch!" Seemed to have been replaced by "This is worth..." One Lad paid $35.00 for a patch!! Needless to say I told him that he was off his rocker!! I know that I might be an old stick in the mud. But I don't like big business creeping into what I have always seen as a friendly pastime. I heard (But never really witnessed) the horror stories of patches being stolen at the Jamboree and to my mind I can't help but blame this idea that everyone is going to fund their retirement by trading patches. Oh to bring back an age of innocence. Eamonn.

I keep asking my Mother-In-Law to try it for size, but so far she has resisted temptation!! Eamonn

I can't help thinking that a lot depends on what sort of vehicle you are using to transport the gear in? I really like the patrol cook boxes, but they don't fit very well in a car trunk. Eamonn.

Maybe I'm a bit of a book thumper? I know for sure that there are a lot of things that I don't understand and as I grow older I'm starting to accept that there are some things I will never understand. At times I wonder to myself, "Why do you do that?" Or maybe I should say "Why don't you do that?" If someone would come up with a plan where I could get away with a vast amount of money, without hurting or harming anyone would I go for it? The idea of a vast amount of money is nice. Would I be tempted? You bet. Would I go for it? I don't think so. I know that somewhere along the line someone is going to get harmed. Someone or some organization will have lost the money. I'm also a little scared of the consequences of what would happen if I got caught. Then there is my values. I really value my good name. I kind of like the idea that I can go to bed at night and sleep well. OK, so I don't lose any sleep when I drive a little faster than I should. But when the Salesclerk gives me change for a $20.00 when I only gave them a $10.00 I tell them and give them back the extra. So as far as I'm concerned at the end of the day it all boils down to values and character. While there are at times consequences for ignoring BSA policies, most of the time the onus is on the individual. "Men of power are admired, men of character are trusted." Eamonn.

Other than the church service at Saint Paul's and the celebrations at and around American military bases Thanksgiving goes almost un-noticed in the UK. Most of the holidays were Church Holidays. Many have been renamed and moved: New Year's Day,Good Friday,Easter Monday,Early May Bank Holiday,Spring Bank Holiday,Summer Bank Holiday,Christmas Day,Boxing Day. Bank holidays were first introduced by the Bank Holidays Act of 1871, which designated four holidays in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and five in Scotland. These were Easter Monday, the first Monday in August, the 26th December, and Whit Monday (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and New Year's Day, Good Friday, the first Monday in May, the first Monday in August, and Christmas Day (Scotland). In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, both Christmas Day and Good Friday were traditional days of rest and Christian worship (as were Sundays) and did not need to be included in the Act. Two additional days were subsequently appointed in Northern Ireland: St Patrick's Day (17 March) by a special Act of Parliament in 1903 and 12 July (Anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne in 1690), by the Governor of Northern Ireland in 1926. The 1871 Act was repealed 100 years later and its provisions incorporated into the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, which remains the statutory basis for bank holidays. The following changes were introduced both then and subsequently: 1971 - Whit Monday in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (which could fall anywhere between 11 May and 14 June) was formally replaced by a fixed spring holiday on the last Monday in May. The last Monday in August was formally made a bank holiday in place of the first Monday in August in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. In both cases, this followed a trial period of the new arrangements between 1965 and 1970. 1973 - 2 January was created an additional bank holiday in Scotland by the 1971 Act. However, the provision did not come into effect until 1973. 1974 - New Year's Day became an additional bank holiday in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and Boxing Day became an additional bank holiday in Scotland. 1978 - the first Monday in May in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the last Monday in May in Scotland, became additional bank holidays. Bank holidays designated since the 1971 Act are appointed each year by Royal Proclamation. The Anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne bank holiday is proclaimed annually by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The river Boyne runs through our family farm. In fact the bridge where the battle was fought is less than half a mile from the farm (Not far from Newgrange Caves, which are really worth the visit.) A few years back a truck load of Bushmills whiskey turned over spilling the entire load into the Boyne. Now that was something to give thanks for!! Eamonn

jteamnmj We are going "Home" to Ireland in June. Some pals of mine are attending the Thanksgiving Service at Saint Paul's Cathedral in London http://www.stpauls.co.uk/page.aspx?theLang=001lngdef&pointerid=140257zZlArIiwvktkfMbdU2XuqOT6HX I'm staying home with Her That Must Be Obeyed, #1 Son and the dogs. Rory has called dips on a big helping of Turkey. OJ has pals coming over to watch football, so the house will be full of kids and dogs. Who could ask for more? I see that a lot of the stores are open. I hope that no one goes to them!! Maybe that way we can send a message that we don't want them open!! Happy Thanksgiving. Eamonn.

Merlyn_LeRoy, I kinda agree with you. Sure if the idea of a school chartering a BSA unit is going to upset someone I can maybe see how not having one is a good idea. While I think it's sad that we have lost religion in our schools that is just me. Not being a native born American, I do get a little confused at times. I always thought of Americans as being against "Big Government", I think the idea that the government can dictate to a school district is un-American. What ever happened to the will of the people? Here in the sleepy little hamlet where I live, parents would love to see their kid take part in a Christmas play. The local community supports Scouting and the BSA, in fact they see bashing the BSA as just wrong. But it seems that they have no voice. As for: "There are a few Venture Crews on the east coast that were formed for medieval fantasy role-playing, run by college-age kids, and you'd better believe they ignore the no gays or atheists rules" I think you are talking about NERO? I have no idea if they ignore the rules or not? I do know that I helped get a Crew started that wanted to use the NERO program as a activity for a Venturing Crew. Sure there were a few people who weren't happy but NERO is dedicated to the legendary days of high fantasy, while running a fun (and above all safe) game. http://www.polarlarp.com/ I admit it's not my cup of tea, but these guys seem to enjoy it and they have all signed the BSA membership form. I would hope that they wouldn't be telling lies?? Eamonn.

Our ceremonies are done at the OA Circle. Those watching do not play any part in any of the ceremonies. In fact it could be said that there is no reason for them to be there? At times we have a lot of people who have sealed their membership by becoming Brotherhood members, I think at the August weekend we had almost 60 and over 100 who had taken Ordeal. When you add Vigil Honor ceremonies it takes a very long time. By having the circle designed so that everyone can see the ceremonies and the fact that the audience doesn't play any part in the ceremony I can't see any reason for them to have to stand. When OJ became an Ordeal member, he did it at an October weekend, it was so darn cold I thought I had become frozen onto the wooden log (Seat) that I'd placed my very cold backside on. And yes I'm both an old fellow who has had several back surgeries so I'd not be happy standing for four or five hours. As for having people sit, stand, sit - I think you will take away from the ceremony and end up ruining it for the participant. After all that's who it is for, not the team performing the ceremony. You might want to think about picking your battles. If the audience is disrupting the ceremony go out and fight that one!! But in my book trying to ensure that everyone can see and hear what is going on is far more important than if they are standing or sitting. Eamonn.

When I look at the people who attend District Events, I see the same old faces. Old timers like me seem to have been around for ever. But when I look at the Unit Charters that come in I see the tell tale line through someones name. Why do adults quit? Eamonn.

Hi and Welcome to the forum. We have a rule in our Council that Council Chairman Positions can only be held for 3 years. I was Council Training Chair. When the new Pack Trainer position came along. I have to agree with MarkS, we found that nearly all of the Packs were having a hard enough time filling the leadership type positions and that there just wasn't enough manpower to fill the Pack Trainer position. It was very much the same thing with the Den Leader Coach. I'm a little unsure why Pack Trainers would attend the District Training Committees? Our Training Committees: Look at reports and identify units that have untrained Leaders. Organize Training Events. Select Course Leaders and Presenters. Review past courses. I can see where a member of the District Training Team would want to work with the Pack Trainer and maybe a session to go over what they are to do. But Lord knows the last thing any of us needs is yet another meeting to attend!! Good Luck in your new role. Eamonn.

Kahuna Many thanks for the kind words. Uniforming has become a headache!! I followed all the instructions given on both the web site and in the Sea Scout Manual, to the letter. In my funeral plans I have that I want the Battle Song of the Republic played. But after spending prolonged periods of time listening to it while on hold to the US Navy, I'm thinking about having God Save The Queen!! On my fifth call someone was kind enough to give me the extension number of the person I wanted to talk to. On my tenth call I finally got to talk to her and she informed me that all the stuff I'd faxed was to the wrong number. Sixty more times of hearing The Battle Song and I found out that everything was in order.... But we had to wait to be given an account number -That was November 4th!! So plan B was to use Ship's Stores and of course they didn't have the items in stock that they show on their web site. Plan C? I talked with the Mate from the National Flag Ship. He said that for Work Uniforms they wear Dickie's Chambray shirts and blue jeans. Knowing the jeans that my guys wear (They have to hold them up to walk!!) I didn't think that it was such a good idea. He said that they pick up the shirts at Wal Mart. I looked and Wal Mart doesn't carry Chambray!! J.C Penny, does, but they cost $22.00 each. I had found someone who would embroider the Sea Scout BSA Strip on the shirt for $4.00. Still I'm kinda cheap, so I did the ebay thing. That's a real pain. After some detective work I found the company that supplies the Navy. They are willing to sell me pants and shirts that they are calling ill-regular for $7.50 each. I can live with $15.00!! I'm still going to have the strip embroidered and my thinking is that while we are having that done we might as well have the Flag and the Council strip sewn on at the same time. This would bring the cost of the shirt up to about $22.00. Some of the Scouts want to attend the NE-Region Ball in March. It seems a long drive from PA to NJ to spend $40.00 on a dinner where one of the choices is Meatloaf!! Plus the cost of the hotel room. For that they will need to have their Whites and I will need to move up from the Khaki. My great hope is that by then we will have the account number from the Navy and will be able to order the Whites from them. I haven't done all the math, but off the top of my head I think we should be able to do the Working uniform with patches for about $45.00 (Base ball cap $9.00, belt $4.00, Pants $9.00, shirt $22.00) Whites I think will cost maybe a little less. So for under $100.00 the Scouts will have both uniforms. For the summer I would like to find a good looking pair of cargo type shorts to wear with the working uniform. I'm always a little shocked when I price the Venturing Uniform and see that a basic uniform with long pants costs nearly $150.00 ($135.00 if you go with the shorts in place of the trousers.) I really think that they are going to look sharp once we get all of our ducks lined up. We are planning to hold our first Admissions Ceremony on December 4th. I'll try and take some photos and put them on MSN site. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I'm not a patch collector, but looking over your collection did bring back memories of events and days gone by. For most of the time that your collection covers I was still Scouting back home in Merry olde England. But was courting Her Who Must Be Obeyed!! So I was spending a lot of time on this side of the pond. I'm sure if looking at the photos stirred up my memories I'll bet looking at them must have really did a number on you. Good Luck with the sale. Eamonn.

Seems strange that a few Scouting friends and I were talking about this the other day. Some how we have a Scout Troop in the District that got mixed up with a Camp Fire Program. I admit to knowing nothing about Camp Fire. At the time of the mix up they called themselves Camp Fire Girls. I have no idea if that was the correct name or not. How the mix came about is a long story, but it has to do with a very strong willed Lady who was listed as a COR and her husband was SM. The Pack, Troop and Camp Fire Girls all seemed to be one unit. They never had much time for the District or the Council and with the blessing of their CO very much did their own thing. Over the years I crossed swords with the COR a few times. The comments that I heard from my fellow Scouter's were mainly about how brave I was for taking on this Lady. Her husband was /is a nice fellow. Things started to go really wrong a few years back, when they had a falling out with their CO. As luck would have it they had an ASM who was /is the Commander of the local American Legion, so they moved there. As I say the SM was/is a nice fellow. He has been around Scouting for a very long time. I thought he needed a little nudge to get him back on what I seen as the right track. So I invited him to serve on Wood Badge Staff. He did a wonderful job. In fact the American Legion Post Commander was at my house last week and said that while and after the course he was a much better leader. (The commander has signed on as a Mate for the Sea Scout Ship.)I'm not sure if this had anything to do with his marriage falling apart, but they split and she stayed with this mixed up Scout /Camp fire unit.He went back to college and quit as SM. She met a new fellow. Nearly all the Scouts quit, but there is a group of 13 year old girls who still meet. I have no idea what they do when they meet? The American Legion Commander /Mate wants me to take them into the Ship. I have heard about Sea Scout Ships who have a Cabin Boy /Cabin Girl program which is not a BSA program, but does allow some kind of limited membership to youth who are 13. I admit to being very tempted. We sure would like the idea of all these new members. I'm not sure but I think it might be possible to get them in if we we were to use some kind of a Scoutreach program. But as I say I'm not sure. -Please don't quote me as saying that it can be done. I decided against it because I'm way too lazy to go through what might be involved with a Scoutreach program. One big thing that I keep hearing from older Scouts is that they don't like having "Little Kids around" (Their words not mine -we could talk about one for hours!!) I also worry if we go down to 13 why not keep going down? However, we have a Sea Scout who is 15, his little brother is 13 and will be 14 in September of 2006. The 15 year old is signed up to go Sea Kayaking with us next June and his Mother has asked if the little Lad can go with him? I discussed this with the Petty Officers and they are fine with it. So I have said that as long as the little fellows Scoutmaster is OK with him going, he can go. Not as a Sea Scout but as a Boy Scout. As yet I haven't done anything about the Camp Fire girls. I think I might visit one of their meetings and explain what we do in Sea Scouts. Give them a copy of our plan for 2006 and invite them to join when they become 14. As OJ is 17, I don't have a problem with his age, but I think if he was under 14 I would be happy to leave him in a Troop until he was 14. While I'm sure there would be times and activities that he would tag along with me. There would be times and activities that he just wouldn't be able to participate in. The Sea Kayaking is a BSA High Adventure program and Scouts under 13 are not allowed anyway. I'm not that great of a hunter or into guns but I think knowing what the rule is I wouldn't want to break it. I would hate to see the "Fall out" if God forbid something did go wrong and there was an accident.It would be terrible if something happened to him, but if I took a underage youth and something happened I don't think I could live with myself. Let alone what a good lawyer could do to me and take from me. I don't pretend to know why all the rules are in place? But I think knowingly breaking them is not very bright. Just imagine an unauthorized, under age youth shooting another youth. It just doesn't bear thinking about. I hope and pray it never happens. I'll stick to the age limits. Eamonn.

Sad to say some of the people who have tried to teach me were some of the best!! Blaming the teacher just wouldn't be fair!! I can't even blame it on being left handed Which I am, but it has never got in the way. I'm the problem. I think it's something that I have just got to work on. Eamonn.

Ed, You posted: 1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. 2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. Now please explain how a Lad can make the Scout Oath? Or do we just pretend that it's OK? I think if you are going to stand up and say: "On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God .." You have to acknowledge that there is a God. Are you suggesting that we re-word the Scout Oath so it goes something like: On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God if there is one? I don't see the Scout Oath as the company line! I see it as the core value of Scouting.It is the heart and soul of everything thing that we do. Sure, Scouting is a game. But I hope we never forget it is a game with a purpose. Eamonn

Thanks anarchist I did a google on Rope Fid and came up with some very interesting results. I ordered myself a Fid -There was a video but I was feeling a little cheap!!So maybe that can wait.I'll see how I get along without it. Eamonn

I like to think that when it comes to knots, lashings and that sort of thing I'm fairly good at both teaching and using rope. I have known guys who carry a piece of rope around in their pocket and at the first opportunity pounce on some poor unsuspecting Scout and start sharing the joy of the crown knot. I'm not one of them. Sad to say when it comes to splicing, I'm not very good, in fact I normally screw it up!! I don't know if any one remembers making the Commando Belt on the old Boy Scout Wood Badge course? Well , mine always looked like something that the dog had chewed. I know that practice will help!! But I welcome any ideas or resources you might have. Thanks, Eamonn.

CA_Scouter asked: Does BSA require that he be expelled from the organization due to his agnosticism? The BSA web site states: Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership? A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization. Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to do their duty to God? A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for 94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law. Ed please explain to me how a Lad who is unsure if there is a God can make the Scout Oath. Kudu, we are talking about membership in the BSA in 2005. I see my standpoint as respecting the Lad and his wishes. I read through the link you provided and fail to see what this had to do with a Lad who is an agnostic? I know of lots of really good people who do good who are atheists and agnostics, but because of the Scout Oath and Duty to God, they are unable to be members of the BSA. Apart from it being a rule I personally see Duty to God being a core value of the BSA. We go on to say about doing good a little later in the Oath. I agree with the BSA when it states: "It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law." I have read that Baden Powell wasn't happy with the BSA Oath and Law -But I don't remember ever reading that he was a member of the BSA? I'm sure you will clear that question up for me. Not that it really matters, we belong to the BSA and the question was:Does BSA require? Like it or not the answer is that the BSA does require. Some people might be unhappy with the answer but that's what it is. Eamonn.

http://www.seascout.org/about/program/training_resources/seal.html As many of you know we are a new Sea Scout Ship. We went to one Region activity so far and it seems or seemed that there is different types of Sea Scout Ships. At one far end there seems to be the very military spit and polish Ships. These seem to be very much about marching and drill. At the other far end there are the more, dare I say Venturing types, that don't wear uniforms and from what I seen were very much like a disorganized church youth group. Talking things over with our members they said that they don't want to be at either end, but want to not be the youth group type. They want to wear both the working uniform and the dress white uniform. They all own a copy of the Sea Scout Manual and are working from it. I have a Mate who is ex-navy and tends to lean to the spit and polish side. He isn't that great with kids, but his heart is in the right place and he knows of things nautical. Which is more than useful in Sea Scouting. If I died and went to Sea Scout heaven, I couldn't have been blessed with two better Sea Scouts than the two who are serving at present as the Coxswain and the Coxswain Mate. These two are just out of this world. They spoke with a guy who had served as Skipper for SEAL and they both know that they will have to work their socks off to be Seaman Ordinary and have a good enough working knowledge of chapter four of the Sea Scout manual if they are going to attend the training. They are both very bright, enthusiastic and very determined. I was very put out when this Skipper told our Coxswain, that he didn't think he would be accepted because he is going to be to old! The Lad turns 18 on news years eve. He has said that he is taking a year off before he goes to college (That is up to him and his parents - I don't see me allowing OJ to take a year off.) I really do see that younger Sea Scouts would be able to give more back to the Ship, if they stay in the program? But being as we are so new an older SEAL graduate would be a big help (The Mate is only 16)I know that spaces are very limited. But we have a program that runs until they reach their 21st birthday. Discriminating about age just seems wrong to me. If we are lucky enough to get both on the course I'm hoping that we can get Long Island Sound and Miami. Eamonn

Where I live, "Out in the sticks" nearly all the Fire Companies are volunteer. We have not been able to start any Venturing Units in any of them. -Poor salesmanship? Most do have Junior Firemen. I know several Firemen and have made several presentations, trying to get in and start Crews. Many of the Junior Firemen it seems were at one time Boy Scouts. I kinda think the problem I had with my sales pitch was that I didn't see us (The BSA) giving them anything that they weren't already doing. The young people who join have a program already there. They don't seem to have any interest in: Advancement, High Adventure, Camping or the stuff that we could offer, they were already doing First Aid, Fire Fighting and Fireman Stuff. They already had an insurance plan and people in place that were training them. So I wasn't selling them anything that they needed or didn't already have. Scout Districts as a rule don't count Explorer Posts as part of Quality District. In our Council Exploring is under LFL and does not come under the District Committee. For my part, while I'm sure the LFL can do a lot of good I'm not a great fan. In my view LFL takes money away from the traditional program and is part of a numbers game. It is supposed to be a separate division but isn't separate enough when it comes to needing money. If you look over the areas of the Venturing Program, it isn't hard to see where a Crew could fit in really well -At least I thought so. If the Fire Companies in Maryland don't have good Junior Fireman programs I think it would be a wonderful marriage!! But when I tried it was like bringing coals to Newcastle. They had no need for the product I was trying to sell. I really do wish you the very best of luck and would look forward to hearing how you get on. Eamonn.

Amen to that!! Eamonn (Yes it's spelled different!)

Hi mom162, When I was a little Lad a good pal of mine got a cricket bat for Christmas from his parents. During the summer school vacation we along with all the other kids would play cricket with him, using his bat. Things were fine most of the time, but the game would come to an end when he had to go home for his tea or if he was losing. In which case he would go home taking his bat with him. If you think of the CO giving your COR a cricket bat, the rest of the story plays out. Things changed a lot when more of us got our own cricket bats. He still went home for his tea and still went home when he was losing but the game played on. I think you know what needs done. Sure you might not see every family want to move. But at the end of the day I would ask: What is this CO doing for the Scouts in the unit? And do I want to play with a COR who doesn't want to play cricket? Eamonn

Ed, I if the Lad really is an agnostic? I don't know if he really is? What brought him to this realization ? But if he is steadfast in this, I'm not the guy to try and change him! I don't see the local Priest or Pastor writing him a diet -That's my job. A few years back OJ thought he wanted to become a Methodist. Now I have nothing against Methodists but I come from a long line of Roman Catholics and it came as a bit of a shock. When I asked him why he was considering becoming a Methodist? He said that he liked the fact that they didn't have to kneel down as much as the Catholics. I said he was welcome to attend Methodist services. But when he found out that they didn't offer services on Saturday night he decided against it! So, sure I understand that kids can see things in a very strange light. But if OJ had stood firm in wanting to become a Methodist, I would have supported him and while I might not have liked him becoming a Methodist, the choice would have been his. Isn't it the same with this Lad? We deliver the program to Boys who accept the Scout Law and Oath, if they can't accept it or understand it they need help which most of us are not trained to give. Eamonn.

It doesn't matter what I want. We have the rules of the Organization which are based on values. If the Lad gave me that answer I would have no alternative but to ask him to leave and come back when he was able to take the Scout Oath. Something as an agnostic he is unable to do. Eamonn.

Here's my 2 cents. I don't try and over-think or over analyze things. We as adults are here to serve the youth that join our programs. If the time ever comes that we forget that it's time we quit. We serve one youth at a time. Boy Scout advancement is an individual thing. Trying to make it into one size fits all, seems to me be where we run into problems. Where the requirements are specific and the Scout doesn't have any special needs, life is easy. However if you look over a lot of the requirements they are as you say open to interpretation: "Help plan a patrol menu.."? What does "Help" mean? Isn't this where we as Leaders need to look at what is really behind the requirement and put the learning before the requirement. Help could mean just writing down what the PL comes up with!! However I feel that if we are doing a good job a lot more thought would go into this. Teaching a Lad how to write a menu, why Twinkies and Soda pop aren't such a good idea for every meal. Looking at a balanced diet, taking a look at the food pyramid. We are not adding to the requirement we still require that he helps write the menu, but he is doing it with a little know how. Taking the example of the Lad and the Flag that Hunt gave. Being as we are in the business of helping people make ethical decisions, I wonder what the Lad would say if you asked him if he really thought that he had met the requirement? Eamonn.