Eamonn

"What do you think are the two or three most important things troops can do to improve the likelihood of retaining these new scouts?" I like what SemperParatus posted a lot. I found that when I was a new leader I seemed to more concerned and do more with and for the older Scouts. They started to become an elite little club, who really didn't want to see anyone breaking in on "Their Turf". It took me a little while to work out that the future of the Troop was really in the hands of the new little Lads and then I had the job of selling that idea to the older Scouts. In keeping with what SemperParatus posted about parents. I really feel that good communication with the parents is a must. I made a point of visiting each new Scout at his home. This gave me a insight to what his home life was like and most times the opportunity to meet both parents and the rest of the family. It also gave the parents a chance to give me the quick once over. I of course answered any questions or concerns that they had. I think that this meeting was really important. I normally stopped for a cup of tea and a biscuit (cookie) It really did break the ice and made future meetings a lot easier. Eamonn.

"If going through crap to get a Venturing crew up and running, and even trying to get them focused only reached ONE single youth that would have headed down the wrong track, I would think it would be worth it." This sounds good. Sad thing is that it just doesn't work. Any unit that is worth it's salt is always trying to reach out and help that one youth and every youth. The "Crap" as you call it is needed in order to have the unit set up with a good foundation and the organization that will support the unit. Without it the unit isn't going to last long and will not be reaching anyone. In fact these one year wonders do a lot of harm . -They burn up members. Youth who have been in a failed unit feel that they have been let down and rarely if ever return to Scouting. IMHO,if you see this as "Crap" maybe it is better that you don't start a new Venturing Crew. Eamonn.

The Jamboree close out prices at Scout Stuff are 75% off. I just bought a $75.00 leather briefcasre for less than $20.00 I can't believe the cap we paid over $20.00 is on sale for $5.00!! Eamonn.

Hi BoxieLady Welcome to the forums. While I hate to be a kill joy.I really think the reason a lot of Crews are "One Year Wonders" is because they don't have a focus. I'm sure at this time it seems like the old Chicken and the Egg question, but I really think you will find that in order to get this off the ground and working you need to have a selling point. A Crew that is only there to help out at Day Camp is not going to make it. If you start this without some sort of idea where you are going all you are going to get from the youth is that Deer in the headlights look. I would also not worry about trying to get everything done by the end of the year. Yes the FD will love it and it will help him out. But that isn't why we do what we do!! If I were you I would slow things down a bit, go out and read everything that you can find, talk to other people who are or have been involved in the program. Getting a new unit off the ground is not easy. Filling out the paper work is!! Please don't be bullied by the FD. If this is worth doing it is worth doing well and the more prepared and the more you know the better it will be. Just calling these under motivated youth Venturers is not going to provide any motivation. Until the unit finds it's own legs they are going to look to you. If you don't know where you are going and have a plan of how to get there -Your lost!! Eamonn.

Back when I was a Scout Leader(SM) in England, Summer camp was a two week event organized, ran and completely in the hands of the Troop. Some years we might camp at a National Camp site, but while some offered activities,like sailing or climbing most offered a place to camp. We brought our own equipment, cooked our own meals and for the most part were independent. When we camped in Ireland, we got permission from a farmer to use a field which was near the lakes of Killarney. The farmer was a nice old Lad, he came over most days for a cup of tea and brought fresh eggs for us at no cost. We camped at the Scout Center in Rotterdam and never seen a soul from the center. Again we had loaded all of our gear on the mini vans and made our own way there. Bought all of our food locally and cooked it on site. I think that I should point out that Advancement wasn't based entirely on merit badges. I had a hard time getting used to the BSA Council ran Summer camp. It would seem on the surface that Council ran summer camps offer the Scouts a lot more to do. But with so many merit badge classes going on, a little Lad might not get to do what he wants to do unless he is prepared to take the class. Parents and some leaders seem to view how many merit badges were earned at summer camp as the yard stick that measures the success of the camp. I'm not anti organization. I really think that the Jamboree should be the model that all Council Summer Camps should use. Sure there is a Merit Badge Midway, but I really like that Scouts are free to go out and try their hand at new or maybe not so new activities. I also have to admit that I had one Summer camp in England which was just a miserable time. It rained hard every day and it seemed the more it rained the more fed up and down hearted that everyone got. Cooking over wood fires was almost impossible, we were in the Lake District and had hoped to go out sailing but it was a no go. Still, within a few weeks of coming home we had bounced back and were making plans for the next summer camp. I really think that Council Summer Camps are a drain on the resources of a Council.They are very expensive to maintain and operate. I get very upset when I see all the work that goes into our Summer camp for seven weeks and as the seventh week is the week with the fewest campers things start to get taken down before the campers are even out of camp. We get a lot of our Scouts to attend Summer camp (Of approx. 1,750 Scouts in the Council we have about 1,000)Last year the camp fee was $175.00 and we lost a lot of money. Food and wages take up a good part of the camp fee. There doesn't seem to be an sort of depreciation in place of equipment. So when new stuff is needed it really hurts. It seems that just about every year we get hit with some type of big project which costs a bundle. New shower houses, swimming pool needs work and the list goes on. Right now there is a move to see about a new dining hall. The price tag is a little over one million dollars!! This seems like a big investment for something that is only going to be used for less than ten weeks a year. Of course I like our camp and have very fond memories of the camp. I know that we have people who think of it as hallowed ground. I'm not one of them. At the end of the day I see a million dollar dining hall on one hand and on the other hand a farmer who was happy to see a bunch of kids having a good time and eating his eggs. I'll take the eggs!! Eamonn

We were to have a superb dinner, consisting of a leg of pickled pork and greens, and a pair of roast stuffed fowls. A handsome mince-pie had been made yesterday morning ?and the pudding was already on the boil. (Charles Dickens -Great Expectations) Pleased to say that I have done just about all my Christmas shopping. The cards are done. But I'm left with the same age old question!! People keep asking me "What do you want for Christmas?" The truth is that I don't want anything!! When I told Her Who Must Be Obeyed that I wanted a sail boat, she seemed to think I was joking!! I have drawers that I can't shut full of sweaters, socks and underwear!! I have the worlds greatest collection of ugly ties and yes I do have the ugly red one with the Scout Law on it. I think my big problem is that as well as being selfish, I'm also not very patient, if I want something I buy it. So what do you want for Christmas? Eamonn.

Quick pile up the sand bags!! Yes I admit that I'm the bad guy in our Council who when I was Council Training Chairman did away with Pow Wow. We used to charge about $15 -$20.00 for Pow Wow, with a catered hot lunch. But attendance was low. So we changed the Lunch to a bag lunch and charged $8.00 and attendance remained low. People said bring back the hot lunch and do a B&G Banquet, so the price went back to $20.00 and attendance remained low. In fact we were not seeing hardly any new faces just a group of hard line Pow Wowers!! While we tried to not have any extra costs, it just wasn't possible. So we charged the cost of materials. Mainly for leather and one time I remember someone done rubber stamping and sold some sort of a tote bag. As long as the people know what the cost will be ahead of time (When they sign up for that class) I don't see it as a problem. But if you wait till they get there and spring it on them. Boy will you catch it. There is nothing in this world as bad as a rampaging gang of upset Pow Wowers - They make Her Who Must Be Obeyed look like a bowl of cherries, even when I forget to put the seat down!! The very Best of British Luck -I'm still in hiding. Eamonn.

I'm a little shocked that a Council would not offer a Summer Camp Program? Does the Council own another camp which offers a Summer Camp? I am 100% for Troops running their own long term camps. My feeling is that Council Summer camps do little or nothing to help promote the Patrol method and the food is never as good as when the Scouts cook it. I really don't think a group of volunteers can pull off running a summer camp. I'm sure that their hearts are in the right place, but there is the National Standards to comply with, which while I'm not up to date on all of them, I do know can be a pain. From my own point of view I don't think I like the idea of paying to attend a long term volunteer camp!! Mainly because I don't want someone telling me when I'm unhappy about something that he is just a volunteer!! Over the years people have asked me why I didn't become a professional? My answer has always been that if I did I would lose the option of telling someone that they were full of beans and to go stick it in their ear. I also have some concerns that if this band of Volunteers start running the camp it will become "Their Camp" -It's not. Eamonn.

Hi EagleInKY, Let me tell you a tale of two kids.. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times .. No that's a tale of two something else. Zane and Ethan. Zane is a nice Lad. I've known him ever since he was a little Tiger Cub. He attended Day Camp when I was into that sort of thing. He was team member of the soccer team that I coached when I was doing that. He wasn't very good, knew he wasn't very good and to make matters worse is a lazy little toad -In a very nice way.A very clever and very intelligent Lad, who seems to do well at school without making much of an effort. I know and like his parents and his little brother a lot. After Cub Scouts he joined the same Troop that OJ is in. I kind of lost track of him and what he was up to. Last year he signed up as a CIT at our Summer Camp, with his pal Ethan. I don't know Ethan as well, he seems like a real nice Lad. His family moved into the area about four or five years back and for a while they weren't sure if the company that his Dad works for were going to move him again or not. His Dad is an Eagle Scout and signed up as an ASM, in the Troop. Dad is a very knowledgeable Scouter, but isn't easy to get along with. He seems to have this attitude that it's his way or the high way.Ethan, more than anything else wants to make sure that he isn't letting his Dad down. Both Zane and Ethan went to the Jambo with yours truly as SM. Ethan's Dad got a little upset with me because I wouldn't sit down with him and Ethan and work out a schedule of Merit Badges for Ethan at the Jamboree. He really does like the tees crossed and all the i's dotted. Zane and Ethan had a great time up working at Summer Camp and were each others buddies for nearly all the time they were at the Jamboree. Zane joined the Ship. I was overjoyed to see him do so. I was really surprised when our first female Sea Scout turned out to be his girl friend. Hey what happened to the little Tiger Cub!! She is a year older than Zane and without wanting to sound sexist is a real good looking young Lady. Ethan completed his Eagle Scout rank, he is a few months younger than Zane. The invitation to Ethan's Eagle COH went out via E-Mail one day last week for the COH on Sunday. It seemed to be something that someone had put together in a hurry at the very last minute. The Ship was meeting at the same time as the COH. We were working on ceremonies, Zane is the Boatswains Mate Administration and ceremonies come under him. I thought that he would miss the Ship's meeting and attend the COH. I was taken back when I asked Zane why he wasn't going to his pals Eagle Scout COH and he said that he really liked Ethan, but he was fed up hearing the Dad tell him how lazy he was and how he should have earned his Eagle before Ethan. In fact he said that he now wants to complete his Eagle with the ship, just so he isn't near the Dad. I don't know what Ethan will do next, him and Dad are off to Philmont next summer. Zane is bright enough to make Quartermaster if he decides that is what he wants to do. I'm almost sure he will become an Eagle Scout. But as for Ethan's Dad, I don't hold out much hope. I didn't ask straight out but OJ tells me that none of the Scouts in the Troop like him and that OJ and him "Got into it"?? At summer camp when OJ was SPL. OJ, said that he started to tell him what to do and he just informed him that he was the SPL and he could go pound salt!! The real shame is that we have a guy who could do so much and pass on so much to the Scouts but he isn't a work in progress he just stopped progressing. Eamonn.

Hi EagleInKY, I would hope that we all are a work in some sort of progress? Of course some of us progress faster than others. That's why we tailor the program to the individual. Eamonn.

My off the cuff answer would be that if he has a couple of weekends under his belt; He ought to be fine. But ..... It depends on the Lad. If he is a fun loving, outdoor adventurous, outgoing Lad? No problem. But if he is the type of Lad that is going to have a hard time, it might be best to wait. We deal with the Scouts we serve as individuals, so hard and fast rules tend to get in the way. Eamonn.

As I have posted before in this forum, I don't like winter and hate being cold. I wasn't upset when the "Play in the snow" day planned for Seven Springs was postponed and the date was used for Cosmic Bowling!! I haven't been bowling in years and had never been cosmic bowling. It's great!! The bowling alley was full of young people, the lights were flashing, reminded me of them long gone Disco Days. The music was loud and the kids were having fun. I think I was the oldest person in the place. It didn't start till mid-night and we bowled until 3:00 AM then it was off to breakfast. These Sea Scouts do a lot of eating. I didn't get home till 5:30 AM and Rory thought that he needed a quick walk. The guys brought two pals with them and they seemed to know all the other kids in the place, so we ended taking two extras to breakfast, both are interested in joining the Ship. Right now I'm ready for a very long winters nap. I have spent the last ten years or so making fun of my friends that bowl, but I had a great time. Heck even the music wasn't that bad. Eamonn.

As I said I really don't care what the uniform is, just as long as we are all on the same page. Over the time that I have been in this forum Uniform has always been a hot topic. I think no matter what changes were made some people would not be happy. Jeans might seem like the answer to everyones prayers but I can hear the cotton haters saying how useless they are. Camo? I can hear people saying that we look like a right wing something or other. I don't claim to know what the real uniform standards are in other countries. I have camped with Scouts from all over Scandinavia and it seemed that a shirt and necker was the uniform. Same with Scouts from Ireland and Holland. I tried looking up the cost of a uniform in the UK and it seems that a uniform for a Lad of about 15 years old would cost 67 pounds or about $110.00 (Slightly less if you go with shorts which happen to be on sale this week!!) Having been on the "Outside" looking at Scouts from the USA, I have to say when they are in full uniform outside of the USA they are very striking and look great. I know this isn't the real world and even though my son has several full correct Scout uniforms, he does at times leave the house carrying his Scout Shirt. But at the same time I have seen him tell other Scouts that they can't be part of the color guard at OA weekends because they are not in full uniform!! - He is a lot tougher that I am. Eamonn.

23 years next month. We met at Camp Conestoga, in the summer of 1977, when I was working as the International Camp Counselor. If there had been such a thing as frequent flyer miles back then I would have racked up a few, but this was the time of Laker Airways, and Peoples Express. I never had a problem flying "Stand by" until I was supposed to be here for our engagement party. Which I didn't make. Still the cake wasn't wasted the DE who still serves our Council and is a very dear and close friend used it -He got engaged at what was to be our party -Heck it was the same crowd. We lived in London for a couple of years, I was still with the 17th Fulham (Pioneers). I wasn't used to having anything get in the way of Scouting and she was really nice about it. When we moved over here, I wasn't very active. At the request of a couple of friends I sat on a couple of committees that never seemed to do much, but slowly I seemed to be doing more and more. At times I now know I was doing way too much and she started to resend it. One month she kept track of how many days I was out Scouting, the count was in the high 20's. I used to get very defensive and not take any notice of the moans and groans. It wasn't until last year when she found that she had cancer that I seen how unfair and how unreasonable I had been. I thank the Good Lord that things seem to be going OK. But I could kick myself for waiting till it seemed that she might be taken from me to see how important she is to me. We really do compliment each other, we laugh more than any other couple I know. We own up to our weaknesses. She tells me that I wouldn't be able to find my socks and underwear without her. I tell her that if she didn't keep hiding them in the silverware drawer in the dining room I might be able to. Eamonn

Thinking back to when I was a young Lad... I joined to have fun, I enjoyed the challenge and the adventure. The skills were the tools that we needed for the adventure. Of course as a kid I felt short changed that I never got to dash in and save anyone from a smoke filled room. I walked home from Troop meetings for about a month sniffing each and every house just praying one would be kind enough to be full of gas. I used to get a little peeved that I had to stop building the pioneering tower so that I could show whats-his-name how to tie a clove-hitch, all because he had missed the Troop meeting. In order to earn the Chief Scout's Award I had to earn an Instructor Badge, I took the Swimmer Instructor Badge, not because I really wanted to teach kids how to swim, but because I wanted the badge. It was only after doing it that I found teaching kids how to swim was fun and yes I basked in their hero worship. Now that I'm old and grumpy I still think that if we just follow the program focus on the fun and adventure, give the kids the challenges they need things have a strange way of falling into place. It ain't rocket science!! Eamonn.

"Expensive uniforms means poorer people can't have the full uniform, and therefor can't be properly dressed" At the risk of being disagreeable -I disagree. For about 12 years I was Scout Leader to a inner-city Troop in London. At that time the UK Scout Uniform was nice to look at but about as useful as pockets in your underwear and very expensive. Still we had the entire troop in full uniform. Not because of any hard and fast rule or rules but it was a matter of Troop and Patrol pride. While I'm sure that there are cases of genuine financial hardship ( All of which I believe can be overcome. - In the District I serve we have said that we will help any Scout and every Scout who needs a uniform or can't afford to go to summer camp.) It seems to me that Scouts don't want to wear the uniform. Or they don't want to be seen wearing the uniform. If the idea of being seen in a Boy Scout Uniform is going to be seen as not being cool, it really doesn't matter what the uniform is -It still isn't going to be cool or hip or whatever the word today is? After a lot of searching I have found a supplier who can supply our Sea Scout Ship with working uniforms (They are calling them ill-regulars??) Pants and shirt for $15.00 (One Ship's Mate thought that this was such a good deal he ordered five pair of pants for work wear.) Every Scout has ordered a set. So ownership isn't going to be a problem. I'll wait and get back to you on wear-ership!! Eamonn.

I never really got very involved with this kind of stuff until a few weeks back. Someone was willing to donate a boat (In the end they donated it to another Ship.)The boat had been appraised at something like $12,500. The donor wanted to move very fast. I'm guessing to get everything done before the end of the year. He needed completed IRS Form 1096 and 1098-C. Even though I have owned several businesses and still own a couple of corporations, I have been very happy to leave all of this in the hands of my accountants. My first stop was the Council. They said that they didn't want to get involved. My next stop was our CO. They are just too nice, they would do whatever I told them to, but I thought what the heck, just for the fun of it I'd keep going. I took my accountant out to lunch. He started quoting IRS form numbers. I was gnawing on a lamb chop and I can't do two things at once. Over coffee and a really good Carmel Apple pie,I asked him the important question "How much will this cost?" He said setting up a 501c would cost $500.00!! I was a little shocked. He must have seen that I was so he said that it could be done for $150.00. I told him to get things moving and that he was paying for the next lunch. He looked hurt and informed me that at $150.00 he wasn't making a cent. I said that I didn't care, he was still paying next time. I'm not sure but is having very deep pockets a requirement to to be a CPA? Eamonn.

Suffering Catfish!! Sounds almost like our Venturing Program uniform policy!! I admit to being an old stick in the mud. But I don't really care what the uniform is (OK I draw the line at feathers!!) But I think as long as we have whatever it is we should wear it. I'd be happy with just a shirt -If that was what the uniform is. -But it isn't. I also worry about how much our membership fee might go up if the BSA lost the money they get from uniform sales. I think we have discussed the amount before and opinions varied, but someone is making something and if it went away they would still need that cash. Eamonn.

"Agreed, it is a pointless discussion" I'm sorry you feel that way!! I think that a lot of the Tweak-ers know that they are tweaking. In fact a lot of them are very proud of the tweaks they have made. Sometime back OGE asked about Attendance, we know that adding attendance to rank advancement is not something that should be done, but we also know that it is done and is in fact in the Sea Scouts requirements.One might ask if it's OK there why not use it in Boy Scouting? Someone once said to me that "Boy Scout Troops should be like restaurants; one on every corner and a Lad should be able to find the one that he likes best" (OK, it was a Field Director who was at the time pushing membership.) But if they are all selling the same thing, the same way why bother? My problem with Tweaks is that I'm a little worried if we go to far there isn't going to be a real program. While I really don't want to reopen the discussion on duty to God, I was a little taken back when people seemed to be saying that we could tweak what I see as a core value of what we are all about. Still having gone on about tweaks and tweak-ers I have to admit to trying to do a little tweak of my own!! I haven't done it, but I did ask if we could start a Cabin Boy and a Cabin Girl program in our Ship!! I have our SE looking into it, seeing if we can use Scoutreach as a way of doing it. Of course if he says that it can't be done, that will be the end of it. Could it be that I'm the cowardly tweaker? Eamonn.

I'm not all together sold on the idea that Scouting skills are no longer important. Maybe I'm a little hung up on: Homines, dum docent, discunt. I'm all for the "Total Package" Sign me up for all the methods, I like to think that I'm doing my bit to bring our vision and mission statements to life. I do think that Joe-Pa (Guest speaker at last years dinner) needs to know something about the game, before he can start coaching it. We seem happy to bring a group of new leaders away for a weekend and cover the Outdoor Skills, but spend six days on Leadership?? Lads don't join Scouts to learn how to be leaders, they join to go camping, hiking and do the outdoor stuff. If they want to learn Latin they join the Latin Club. I'm 100% for leadership, but just feel that we are over doing it a bit. Eamonn.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But we were talking about tweaking the Scouting (BSA) programs. I asked if we thought tweaking was OK? What tweaks we seen as acceptable? I didn't ask what tweaks were unacceptable, but I was going to!! Again please accept my apology for screwing up the original thread. Eamonn.

No CA_Scouter your prescription is fine. I accidentally deleted the entire thread trying to fix a double posting. I very sorry. Eamonn.

I don't mean to dwell on knots. It seems that a lot of the stuff that I did as a Scout isn't being done because the basic skills are just not there. Knowing and having knowledge of these skills is what made my Scouting experience fun, the fun and the challenge is what kept me in Scouting. Sure I wanted to become a Queens Scout and all that good stuff but it was doing stuff that kept me in Scouting. I fear that the quest for Merit Badges and making Eagle may have replaced this idea of fun and challenge. I like to think that I work well with adults and have a good understanding of Leadership and management. I have spent the last ten years as a member of the District Key 3. Please don't tell anyone, but much as I like to think I did a good and worth while job. I really missed working with kids. While I'm sure the time will come when we sit around and discuss who has the better management style Ken Blanchard or Bruce Tuckman, I think most Scouts would be happier discussing tomorrows hike or why the monkey bridge fell down. Of course bringing in experts to give Merit Badge Classes is a lot easier than really doing stuff, but to my mind we are short changing our Scouts. I think our Scouts learn leadership by undertaking the challenges and leading each other, teaching others and serving others. I see my role as making sure that our Scouts have the know how to do this. OJ has attended some of these new NYLS courses (Mainly with the OA)He has come home saying that he has to write something which from where I stand looks very much like a Wood Badge ticket?? And he says that the courses were boring. At the risk of sounding conceited I think we could teach these Lads more about Leadership with a day of pioneering and well run reflection. Eamonn.

OK,I am a big fan of the new Wood Badge Course. But... We had a Lad join the Ship last week. A real nice Lad, a little on the wild side but I think they make life fun. He is a Life Scout and I'm unsure if he wants to complete his Eagle with the Troop or if he will do it with the Ship. Our Boatswains Mate was going over the knots needed for Ordinary and he discovered that this Lad didn't know any knots, not even the square knot. The Lad has served on JLTC and this past summer the NYLS ??Course. He is by no means a duffer. In fact within a very short time he was starting to tie the knots, with a little coaching. I was a little disappointed as I know and like his SM. As it happened I had another reason to call him and mentioned that this Lad couldn't tie any knots. The SM is trained and has attended Wood Badge. After some humming and herring, he admitted that they only have one ASM in the Troop that is any good at knots and since his grandson quit he isn't at meetings very often. I can't help but feel that we (the District) have let the side down a little. Here we have a Troop with a bunch of adults who don't have the knowledge to teach the Scouts a very basic Scouting skill and of course the Scouts never get to learn the skill. Leadership skills are very important and have a place at the head of the table, but the Scouts have to be able to do the fun stuff which means they have to be taught the basic stuff. Eamonn

I really like e-mail. But.... I managed to upset our District Commissioner, he got to sending way too much. I got really fed up with the jokes and a little upset with the prayers that threatened that if I didn't forward them to all the people I know all sorts of things would happen, none of it good. I tend to not send or forward any of this sort of stuff and only send important stuff. We use the R/T Mail boxes and if a unit doesn't pick up their mail it goes to the Unit Commissioner for him to deliver. I suppose you might try things like prizes for the first so many replies? But the real trick is making what you send important enough that people will want to respond. I don't like all the fancy stationary and background stuff, just keep it clear and I'm a happy camper. Our District Commissioner is so upset that he now doesn't send me anything!! Oh well,he only has to put up with me as District Chairman for another month. Eamonn.